circa 1400 armour from 1358 peasant revolt artwork

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Wyrm
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circa 1400 armour from 1358 peasant revolt artwork

Post by Wyrm »

Hi, can someone refer me to images of armour and gambeson design for the armour and gambeson's that these guys are wearing.

http://www.geocities.com/wyrmspleen

I could hunt around for something similar looking on the net but I'd prefer to get something exact or as close as possible.

I am interested in particular the bascinet helmets with visors, mitten or gauntlets (hourglass i think) and especially the gambeson design.

While the gambeson looks fairly straightforward in the picture are there gussets under the arms? Does anyone have a pattern for such a gambeson? Are they pullover gambesons? because I cannot see a seam where they are joined on either the front or back with the exception of the guy with the visorless bascinet on the bridge with the axe - he seems to have a seam in the centre front of his gambeson perhaps. If it is a seam how was it held together?

If anyone can help me with these items that would be fantastic. Thanks.
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Post by Egfroth »

There are a couple of existing gambesons from this period in museums in France, as I recall, and they are fastened at the front with many many cloth-covered buttons. No gussets under the arms - just very wide as they join the main trunk of the gambeson.

One of them is shown in "Arms and Armour of the Mediaeval Knight" by Miles and Paddock.

Perhaps someone on the archive has a picture or two?
Egfroth

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Ernst
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Post by Ernst »

Wyrmspleen,

The dating is almost certainly late 14th century. Royal 20 C.VII can be found here:

http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/britishli ... earchinput

The shelfmark is of course "Royal 20 C.VII". This was previously discussed at

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=29840
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Vitus von Atzinger
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Post by Vitus von Atzinger »

My look has been based upon these illuminations for at least two or three years. The only difference is that I have moved to an Italian-style hybrid bascinet.
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Post by Wyrm »

The artwork is looks great, I've saved and renamed all images according to the descriptions of the online british library images. Fantastic - thankyou for the links provided Peder and Ernst.

Egfroth, I will reorder in that book to look at the gambeson and have a look (should just buy a copy..). Sounds fairly simple to make compared to other gambeson styles. Hopefully I'll find a clear look at the cloth covered buttons you mention.

If anyone can refer me to an armourer site that has good pictures of the same armour thats being used by guys in the original art please feel free to do so. Same for gambeson.

Thanks.
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James B.
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Post by James B. »

There is an existing exampe as Egfroth mentioned and Master Cad has some great images of it on his site:

http://www.mallet-argent.com/chartres.html
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Post by Tailoress »

Becoming commonly referred to as the "Charles VI" cotte, supposedly worn by him (or someone else?) as an adolescent, though it really does look to me like a turn-of-the-15thc style, and Charles would have been 'enjoying' the middle-aged years by then, so I can't see him wearing it and looking as good as that cotte implies he would look. The article those pics on Cad's site come from dates this cotte tentatively to 1372 (when Charles would have been 18, I think), but I really doubt that could be correct, given the art of that time versus the art of the turn of the century. Charles was still king during the turn-of-the-15thc, though, so that moniker is as good as any.

Here's my first take on this style, though the skirting is shorter than the original (as per the wearer's preference):

[img]http://www.cottesimple.com/misc/cets_CharlesVI_cotte_smaller.jpg[/img]

I had to devise a pattern of my own making by looking carefully at the photos. I'm making another one in the next few weeks and hope to more closely match the original contours, though I'm quite happy with the sleeves on the velvet one above. Here's a diagram of the sleeve pattern:

[img]http://www.cottesimple.com/misc/sleeve_diagram_CharlesVI_cotte.jpg[/img]

It's not exact, but gives you an idea of what to shoot for if you want to imitate the bombard style of the original. The seam will end up going down the back of the arm, not under the arm. The dotted line down the center is just to show the midline of the pattern; it has no real significance.

-Tasha
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Post by Wyrm »

Thanks for the site James and Marcele thanks for the pattern, nice looking cotte. Its interesting to note the hour glass shape the cotte has, does this explain the often seen tight line on the figures in the artwork above the belt? I was trying to work out if they had some kind of cord around their waist but I guess its just the shape. I'm unsure if I will get a buttoned seam and would prefer a wide pullover type, even though I dont know if they really existed in this form.

Also, regarding heraldry - I've been going through all the images I have collected here looking for displays of heraldry, I've found nothing. I'm not sure if heraldry was worn often during this time in battle and how it was actually displayed but I put a bit of time into designing mine and want to know the best way to wear it with a kit like the ones portrayed. I originally was going to make a surcoat that went over my gambeson - is this a good or bad idea? Otherwise I was considering putting it directly on to my gambeson - did this ever happen? I plan on using only a sword and buckler which rules out my use of it on a heater shield which some of the figures are seen using. Any suggestions please? If a surcoat over the gambeson is a passable idea what are the colours used as surcoats? i ask because I am trying to go with the generally accepted colour rules of heraldry such as used within the SCA (even though I have seen art with heraldry breaking these rules). Thanks again.
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James B.
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Post by James B. »

Wyrmspleen

I have never seen anything to lead me to thing this kind of cotte had heraldry on it, but the black price cotte did, it is a short sleeve garment worn is a similar way.

Also may believe that there was a wool, linen, or leather garment in the same shape as a cotte with no sleeves that some kept heraldry on. I have not evidence for this but it is a place to start looking. LaBelle Company has a garment of this type http://www.labelle.org/Pics_Gallry/walkingSrG.jpg

Tasha

Funny thing is I just made a pattern for that kind of cotte and my arm is very close to yours.
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Wyrm
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Post by Wyrm »

Thanks, I'm going to see if I cant find a source image for the garment in that photo.

If I cant get anymore information here regarding what I have posted so far can someone shine some light on the belts that these guys are wearing? Many of the belts in the various pictures seem to be decorated with round studs or something - what are they?

Also, the images that Peder gave links to above, there seems to be a common use of heater shields, but they are very small, I'd almost say they were about the same size as a buckler. Is this an acurate size, I didnt even think that heater shields were used at this time - is it artistic licence for the puprose of showing heraldry or did they really make use of heater shields this way?

Thanks.
Last edited by Wyrm on Sun Jul 25, 2004 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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James B.
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Post by James B. »

The fellows in the images Brent put up are wearing different types of hip belts, Raymond Quitepress sells different types:

http://www.quietpress.com/hip_belts.html

His Black Prince belt is very close to correct from the effigy, there are bits between the gaps at the top portions between the circular parts, and the Museum of London book on Dress Accessories has info on it.

Also the heaters are correct, the Black Prince's shield still hangs at his grave, it is smaller that most SCA folks use and has his heraldry on it.
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Adrielle Kerrec
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Post by Adrielle Kerrec »

Are you looking for a pattern for a garment like this one?

http://www.tworavens.org/gallery/2004Pi ... NigelSpear
http://www.tworavens.org/gallery/2004Pi ... 3_SirNigel


cheers
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Post by Tailoress »

Hey, he's got the same dog-face ocularium simulation in bar stock that I have on my helm. Looks like a Ben Scheiner (Dragon Forge) special. :D

Is that red jupon/cotte modeled on a particular image or set of images? I'm wondering what the inspiration was.

-Tasha
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Post by Adrielle Kerrec »

Yup that is Ben's work on the visor (and helm). My husband's kit is based on the Hohenklignen effigy (forgive my spelling :) )

cheers
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Wyrm
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Post by Wyrm »

Adrielle, do you have a scanned pattern? :)

James, thanks for the belt link.
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Adrielle Kerrec
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Post by Adrielle Kerrec »

Howdie
I don't have a scanned pattern but I could trace it out for you and mail it. Or I do take commissions as well :)

cheers
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Post by Klaus the Red »

Marcele, do you have your own copy of the catalog from the Chartres treasury with all the lovely photos and analysis (in French) of the Charles VI cote? I do. Honeymoon loot.

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Post by Tailoress »

Oui, oui, Klaus, and a translation on its way. :D

I suppose I could labour over the translation myself, but I've got arming cottes to sew!

I must state for the record how jealous I am that you got it via "honeymoon loot" -- meaning you were THERE. grumble grumble grumble. :P

-Tasha
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Post by Klaus the Red »

Yep, I was in Chartres in person- but unfortunately, it was on a Sunday, so the cathedral was in use as a church (fancy that), the treasury in the crypt was closed, and the child's armor, normally in the museum, had been loaned to the Louvre for a special exhibition. We were already planning to go to the Louvre the next day so we saw the armor after all, but the arming coat was nowhere in sight. I had to satisfy myself with the catalog. Next trip, maybe.

Klaus
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