"Pourpoint to suspend leg harness" question

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 10:05 am

How do those of you who use a pourpoint to suspend your leg harness suspend your arm harness? Does your arm harness hang from the pourpoint? From the body armour?

Thanks-

Gwen
Black Swan Designs

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 10:14 am

I suspend my arms--which are from Jeff's shop--from a stoutly made tightly fitting cotehardie. I would like to suspend my legs from a pourpoint, but use a belt for now. What I will probably settle on, for SCA combat, is this, starting from inside to out:

1. Pourpoint. Legs will be pointed to this.
2. Body Bracelet for kidney protection.
3. What I am calling an "arming cote," which is a linen cotehardie with reinforced squares and holes for leather thong. Arms will be pointed to this.
4. Mail haubergeon. Breastplate and gorget strapped on over the top of the haubergeon.

Jehan de Pelham, squire of Sir Vitus

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 10:37 am

Thanks for the response! Why would you point your legs to one garment and the arms to another- why not point both to one garment?

Gwen

Primvs Pavlvs · Post by **Primvs Pavlvs** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 10:47 am

Gwen I plan on tryin this myself with a pourpoint made based on a 18th cent weskit pattern for now just to see how it functions. I was thinking of even pointing my pauldrons to it also. If I get to this project in the next couple of weeks I will be happy to let you know how it works if you like.

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 11:16 am

Always glad to help!

I am thinking of using two garments for these reasons: Primarily to avoid overload on one garment, partly to avoid the sucked in waist appearance that seems to happen with pourpoints. The pourpoint will have the body bracelet cinching it tightly to the body at mid to lower thorax, which I figure will solve that problem, also. Lastly, partly to add a teeny little bit of bulk in fabric in there--I use NO padding under my armor--so I can have a little protection from the friendly intentions of my opponents.

Now, regarding "how they would have done it," I hear that a shirt, then a pourpoint, then an aketon and haubergeon over the whole, would have been how it was done--my arming cote simply takes the place of the aketon, which I don't feel I need and which would make my already warm condition in armor into an oven-baked hell.

Jehan de Pelham, squire of Sir Vitus

Kenwrec Wulfe · Post by **Kenwrec Wulfe** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 11:45 am

Legs suspended from the pourpoint and my arms and spaulders are suspended from my gambeson.

***Edited to add:

I point two different garment for two reasons

1 - Comfort. The feel is just better with that setup.

2 - Movement. Having the freedom to move fully at the waist (as the leg suspending garment move with the legs and the arm garment moves with the arms) makes a huge difference in my fight.

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 12:12 pm

Thanks for the response! Why would you point your legs to one garment and the arms to another- why not point both to one garment?

At one point in time, I had both legs and arms suspended from a military jennie harness and a web belt. It _sucked_ you basically had to pull your legs up your thighs to bend backwards. THat may have just been because of my design of the legs and of the way the harness was set.. but to me it would be like trying to fight in a tight fitting union suit.

Same reason I would never attach my legs to my breastplate (at least not with knees on them). I cannot think of any mobile way to do it (which for our style of combat is necessary) that would allow much leaning/bending backwards or sideways.

Maeryk

Jeff J · Post by **Jeff J** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 12:27 pm

Both arms & legs are attached to an arming doublet. It fits tight enough around the waist for most of the weight of the legs to be borne by the waist. I prefer this method for under a cuirass because it precludes the doublet riding up in the waist during movement.

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 12:43 pm

I use a puripoint for my legs and a arming coat fro my shoulders and arms.

"Why would you point your legs to one garment and the arms to another- why not point both to one garment?"

My legs kept pulling the front of my coat down and the pauldrons rode in front of my shoulders.

Of course this is in part of the weight problem i had with the materials whch were all 16 ga stainless. Now it's mostly mild steel with aluminum cuiesses in my "studded leather" legs.

When i finally get spring steel from Jeff i suspect i will not have the weight problem any more. But i had to buy an M-4 assault rifle, a back up gun and a set of high threat ballistic plates for my vest. Still gotta buy a PASGT "gunfighter" helmet, so there went all my money.

But you gotta be armed to go to war.

I digress.

Which is more period? I found that for me the 2 garments system works best.

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 11:38 pm

Bump because I'd like to see some more responses, as I'm trying to determine whether to proceed with production of pourpoints or pull the plug on them.

Gwen

Dougal Forester · Post by **Dougal Forester** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 12:09 am

Damn Gwen, you make a statement like that above (thinking about scrapping the whole thing), I'm tempted to lie and say I tie them both to a pourpoint, but that it is getting old and worn out and I'll be looking for a new one! There is a market out there for a well designed pourpoint at a reasonable cost, that is fairly authentic. You have a large client base (at least by the standards of the industry) and a sterling reputation...I can't see how making them could go badly for you.

But to answer your question currently I don't have anything to tie my armour to. I have legs, and arms will be here monday, so yes, I'll be in the market for a pourpoint, but I'll probably harrass/cajole my wife into making something for me. However, if it were reasonable enuf...

Dougal

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 1:59 am

I fully intend on pointing the leg armor which should be coming to my door soon from Jeff to a pourpoint of some kind.

Jehan, squire of Sir Vitus

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 9:38 am

Hey Gwen, It seems to me that two garments are needed. When arm harness and spaulders are pointed to a sleeve, and the arm is raised, the lower hem of that garment raises. If the cuisses are pointed to this garment, the cuissses tend to "ride up" the leg. With a seperate sleveless pourpoint like you have produced,The legs are hung independently,causing movement of the arms to have no effect on the cuisses. Hope this makes sense, I'm still kinda sleepy...Otto

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 10:28 am

The great frustration I -- and many other SCA folk these days -- have is that we're not wasp-waisted. We're chunky. Deluxe economy size. Fat, even. And many clothing merchants -- even the great ones, like Gwen's -- don't market for the increasing number of larger people except by special order. We still treat clothing as if "Large" meant tall as well as wide. I ordered the largest of the gambesons from "Another Company" so the waist would fit; and it does, but the arms end four inches BEYOND my fingertips, and are correspondingly extra wide and full.

This just sux.

Effingham

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 10:31 am

Ahhhh Yes, forgot to add that the pourpoint has to be worn under the arming coat. If worn over the coat, arm movement affects the leg harness.I think you should keep on making them Gwen.You may not sell a million of them, but you should sell quite a few, and make those quite a few customers very happy...Otto

Josh W · Post by **Josh W** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 10:50 am

If you start producing these, Gwen, I'll certainly buy one. I like to point both my legharness and armharness to my arming doublet.

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 11:32 am

James, it's not a decision based on whether I'll sell enough of them to make a profit or not- I have people lined up to buy them and I don't even have them in production yet, so I'm sure they'd be profitable. The problem is that I really only want to offer well researched historical products, and I'm not at all sure the "arming pourpoint" is a historical garment.

My research indicates you should be using an arming coat to suspend -all- of your armour, as JeffJ suggests. All answers so far state that the reason you're using an "arming pourpoint" instead of an arming coat is because you can't get an arming coat that works the way it ought to, so you use 2 garments to do what 1 garment should. I'm thinking that in the long term you guys would benefit more if I spent my time making an historical arming coat that fits and works the way it should, rather than offer an "arming pourpoint", which only puts a band-aid on the underlying problem.

Let's be honest- you all know you can get an "arming pourpoint" right now from "Another Company" if you want one. What you can't get from anyone is a well fitted, historically accurate, affordable arming coat. It looks like -that's- what I should be working on, not another version of what someone else is already offering.

Gwen

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 11:34 am

James, it's not a decision based on whether I'll sell enough of them to make a profit or not- I have people lined up to buy them and I don't even have them in production yet, so I'm sure they'd be profitable. The problem is that I really only want to offer well researched historical products, and I'm not at all sure the "arming pourpoint" is a historical garment.

My research indicates you should be using an arming coat to suspend -all- of your armour, as JeffJ suggests. All answers so far state that the reason you're using an "arming pourpoint" instead of an arming coat is because you can't get an arming coat that works the way it ought to, so you use 2 garments to do what 1 garment should. I'm thinking that in the long term you guys would benefit more if I spent my time making an historical arming coat that fits and works the way it should, rather than offer an "arming pourpoint", which only puts a band-aid on the underlying problem.

Let's be honest- you all know you can get an "arming pourpoint" right now from "Another Company" if you want one. What you can't get from anyone is a well fitted, historically accurate, affordable arming coat. It looks like -that's- what I should be working on, not another version of what someone else is already offering.

Gwen

Dougal Forester · Post by **Dougal Forester** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 11:44 am

Effingham, I was thinking about that last night. Many people who fight in the SCA are overweight, and the historically correct armour jackets? are not meant for people with rotund abdomens. 500 years ago people were smaller and warriors/knights/men at arms were slimmer. I would slim down too if I could die at Pennsic because I'm too slow and fat. I dunno, I'd like to own a garment that I could point both my arms and my legs. I just can't picture what it would look like. Dougal

carlyle · Post by **carlyle** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 11:47 am

Gwen: What you can't get from anyone is a well fitted, historically accurate, affordable arming coat. It looks like -that's- what I should be working on...

That's what I've been trying to tell you for years

!

Now, can I volunteer to be one of the test subjects? You've still got that fabric set aside, don't you

?

Alfred / Jay

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 11:57 am

My research indicates you should be using an arming coat to suspend -all- of your armour, as JeffJ suggests. All answers so far state that the reason you're using an "arming pourpoint" instead of an arming coat is because you can't get an arming coat that works the way it ought to, so you use 2 garments to do what 1 garment should. I'm thinking that in the long term you guys would benefit more if I spent my time making an historical arming coat that fits and works the way it should, rather than offer an "arming pourpoint", which only puts a band-aid on the underlying problem.
Well Dang, you may have a point there. Do you think you could add sleeves to the existing pourpoint to attach the arm harness to? Could it be done in such a way that the arms could be raised without lifting the hem? Something roomy in the upper arm perhaps, but then would the arm harness tend to shift around? To be honest I'd rather have one garment then two, But there seem to be lots of bugs to work out to get the proper effect.Good luck on figuring all this out, if it can be done, I think you can do it....Otto

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 12:06 pm

OK, Jay, point taken. I never said I was the brightest crayon in the box! :oops:

I have a 15th C. arming coat pattern that works splendidly. It's only taken me umpty-ump years to work the bugs out of it, but now that I understand the critical fit issues of an arming coat, I don't see why I can't make a 14th C. version. In the past I've been adamant that I would never touch the Charles of Blois pattern, but maybe it's time to revisit that decision. I understand it better now so it doesn't seem so scary any more.

Thanks for the input all!

Gwen

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 12:07 pm

Well Dang, you may have a point there. Do you think you could add sleeves to the existing pourpoint to attach the arm harness to? Could it be done in such a way that the arms could be raised without lifting the hem? Something roomy in the upper arm perhaps, but then would the arm harness tend to shift around? To be honest I'd rather have one garment then two, But there seem to be lots of bugs to work out to get the proper effect.Good luck on figuring all this out, if it can be done, I think you can do it....Otto

I would think leaving the armpit WIDE open would help.. there wouldnt be any drag "up" on the side of the garment when you simply raised your arm.

Another point, I think.. that we have to consider, is how many people in PERIOD arming outfits were whipping basket-hilted swords back and forth going "whacka whacka" on either side of an opponents head, or doing deep leans to one side or the other to throw "modern" shots?

Its quite possible period armor was designed properly for period fighting, but just wont work in our style for that very reason.

Maeryk

Tailoress · Post by **Tailoress** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 12:25 pm

I don't know if you have any interest in hearing from me given our past relations on this board, but I agree with you, Gwen, that you will better serve your customer base by creating one garment that does the job for both upper and lower body armour. I was going to ask if there was, in fact, any evidence for the two-garment system as described by many here, but I figured that there *must* be if so many people were doing it... I know, I know, I should not assume something just because 'so many people do it'.

In past discussions about grande assiette construction, it did come up that if constructed well (and as a bonus, actually custom-fitted to the body), one would have much less of a problem with ride-up over the waist such that the leg armour would not interfere with the upper body armour's tension and vice versa.

I recently made a custom-fitted garment for this purpose for Asbjorn, who is on this board, and he was kind enough to allow me to take some pictures of him wearing it. He's also wearing Historic Enterprises braies and hosen, which appear at the bottom of some of these pictures, so I want to be clear that those are by HISTORIC ENTERPRISES, not me, and if you like the look of the braies and hosen, go ahead and send Gwen and Jeff your orders.

The arming cotte with grande assiette construction (modeled on the Charles de Blois cotte) was put through some paces with a 14thc-esque sword by Asbjorn. You can see him in at least one very high-armed position, perhaps exaggerated (except for great weapon movements, like great sword) and also I've put closer-up photos here showing how when the arm is at rest, there is extra fabric at the front and back of the arm's pivot point -- necessary to give the upper body lots of room to move around without pulling on the bottom half. I think there's a small amount of 'riding up' in this garment, but hardly any in comparison to what a non-custom-fitted garment can easily produce. So far, the plan is for Asbjorn to point his upper and lower body armour to this one garment. We shall see how it goes! (Small point: I've had to alter the shoulders a bit since these pics were taken; it's a learning process!)

[img]http://www.cottesimple.com/misc/DSCF0073_smaller.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.cottesimple.com/misc/DSCF0090_smaller.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.cottesimple.com/misc/DSCF0091_smaller.jpg[/img]

-Tasha

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 2:40 pm

Well, no suprises here since you made my stuff and told me how to wear it! I assume I have one of the "prototype" garments, a late 14th C. arming coat, but here is what I wear:

Linen hosen pointed to the 14th C. linen braies, with the arming coat over bare skin.
The steel legs pointed to the leather tabs Jeff sewed inside the waist of the coat.
The steel arms to the leather tabs " " "
The pauldrons to the " " "
A rivited mail short-waisted shirt w/elbow sleeves over the arms but under the pauldrons.
Globose segmented breastplate then elkhide jupon over it all.
Plaquebelt attached to jupon.
The tightness at the hips (which takes the weight off your shoulders and consequently saves strain on your lower back) requires a wasp-like figure and I can't wear this if I am more than about 10 - 15 lbs. overweight.

I requested Gwen sew point-holes to the arms and underarms for mail gussets and mantle to use this garment with a 1450 milanese harness, but I was never successful at getting the maile to hang correctly under the armpits without it sagging. She (and Jeff) were both correct about the fauld as well - I wanted it attached to the coat, but Jeff said to use a belt which seemed to work better. It obviously works better at what it was designed for than this, plus 15th century hosen need to be pointed to something as well-and having to add a linen shirt, wool pourpoint to attach the hosen too, then wear all of the armour, it starts getting fairly restrictive for movement.

Dougal Forester · Post by **Dougal Forester** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 3:11 pm

Bascot, Do you have a picture of this arrangement...where the arms and legs and pauldrons are tied? I went through the "Knights of St. Denys" sp? under your profile, but was unable to find anything. Lots of nice pictures there, but not one of arming points and arming jackets.
Sincerely, Dougal

Raselsnarf · Post by **Raselsnarf** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 3:24 pm

If you are looking for information on Purpoints, I would recommend

"TECHNIQUES OF MEDIEVAL ARMOUR REPRODUCTION: THE 14TH CENTURY by Brian R. Price"

He has information on different designs of purpoints, how to make your points in it for legs, arms, etc.

Corey · Post by **Corey** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 8:34 pm

Um, Gwen, here's my reaction to the whole thing:

*makes grabby motions*

...Ok, a well researched comment it wasn't. But it is accurate.

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:05 pm

Yes, yes, I'll have one of those please....Otto

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 10:21 pm

Jay, as I said, sometimes it's not about money, it's about what's right. If I produce something my research tells me is not historical, my credibility goes out the window, even if it's my credibility with myself. You can all blame this on Vitus, as I'm reading the "Anvil of Virtue"- 'to thine own self be true' and all that. ;-)

Corey, you lost me -completely- on that one!

Jef, you, Chef and Lonnie Colson got 15th C. arming coats before I realized I didn't want to make them commercially. Things have changed in the intervening -?- years and I know a lot more now than I did then. We'll have 15th C. arming coats (with voiders) on the site by Christmas (or thereabouts).

Lonnie has pictures of arming up on his website here: http://www.paladin-online.com/thekeep/A ... ngpage.htm. We just did an arming sequence with Jeffrey at the event last weekend, and he's putting it together on a page. I'll post a link when he's got it together.

As of yesterday morning, the Black Swan Designs "arming pourpoint" has been officially shelved. As of yesterday afternoon the Charles of Blois jupon/pourpoint is officially in the works. We'll be offering that in a military (fustian) version and a wool version, in sizes up to a 48" chest (XXL). Like the cotehardies, I may offer it in fancy fabrics if I can find a supply. I should be able to have that available by the Spring reenactment season.

Thanks for your input!

Gwen

Gaston de Vieuxchamps · Sun Jul 18, 2004 10:59 pm

Marcele wrote:I recently made a custom-fitted garment for this purpose for Asbjorn, who is on this board, and he was kind enough to allow me to take some pictures of him wearing it.
-Tasha

That looks AWESOME. How can I get you to make me one?

G

Gaston de Vieuxchamps · Sun Jul 18, 2004 11:16 pm

Jeff J wrote:Both arms & legs are attached to an arming doublet. It fits tight enough around the waist for most of the weight of the legs to be borne by the waist. I prefer this method for under a cuirass because it precludes the doublet riding up in the waist during movement.

Mine looked more like what people are calling a "coat" than like a doublet in terms of cut but otherwise that's exactly what I did. It worked great! No binding or pinching, no riding up or any of the other problems speculated here on this thread. The only problem is that it finally fell apart after 100+ washings and I've been too lazy... um I mean busy, to make another one.

Severla key points:
-The attachment point for the cuises needs to be as close to your trochanter as possible so it moves with you rather than moving up, down, or side to side when you flex and extend the hip.

-I have a waist and I made the garment myself to be snug at the waist so the weight of the legs wasn't really on my shoulders. If you don't have a waist, or if you can't make the waist snug (off the rack), then it doesn't work so well. Two friends who are waistless (you know who you are) liked how mine worked and copied it with very poor results.

-Sew a lot of reinforcements at and above the attachment points. It will eventully wear out if you fight a lot. I think sewing cord/laces to the garment and lacing that through holes in the armour is better than sewing holes to the garment. Grommets. eyelets, etc. all tear and are a pain in the ass to fix. Cords also break but are very easy to fix since the underlying garment is not damaged and you can just sew new ones on. Also, your laces get washed (bonus).

knitebee · Post by **knitebee** » Mon Jul 19, 2004 12:03 am

We'll have 15th C. arming coats (with voiders) on the site by Christmas (or thereabouts).

OOOOH OOOH I cann't wait. I know what I'm getting for Christmas now :lol:

Josh W · Post by **Josh W** » Mon Jul 19, 2004 12:36 pm

With Voyders?

:shock:

Gwen, you just made my year...

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:12 pm

Gwen, if you guys ever want to experiment on making this stuff for "typical 21st century" body types and see how it works on us non-wasp-waisted chubby folks, let me know.

Effingham