MS Royal 20.CVII rondel dagger questions

Wyrm · Post by **Wyrm** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 2:31 am

Hi there, I've been browsing thru MS Royal 20.CVII and I am interested in making a copy of the rondel daggers they often seen carried. A couple of questions, there obviously is a rondel at the base of the dagger blade but I am not sure that these daggers have them at the base, instead having a round ball-like pommel. An early rondel dagger version I assume. Can someone verify this for me. It would be easier for me to make a roundel on both ends of the grip but I can manage a round pommel if thats what is definately represented here.

Also I am sort of perplexed as to how these daggers are being carried. I dont see any sight of a belt or anything holding them on it is like they are just suspended on the gamberson at the hip. Is there a belt or something that cuts thru the gamberson where the dagger is supposrted in these images??? otherwise how is it being supported?

Thanks in advance.

Wyrm · Post by **Wyrm** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 2:38 am

oh one more question, could someone post me some measurements for rondel daggers of this type or a recreated image of a rondel dagger as portrayed being used. I might as well get the measurements correct, esp the length of the blade. Thanks again.

polarbearforge · Post by **polarbearforge** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 9:53 am

All the rondel daggers I've seen, have matching guards and pommels. The pommel will sometimes be dome shaped at the end. I have pictures of both hexagonal and round.

I only have one picture with a sheath, and it has a ring on it. It looks like it just hung from the belt based on that picture. I don't have any other references there though.

The blades seem to be 2 - 3 1/2 times as long as the handle. Then handles are different lengths. The hand, I believe, should fit snuggly between the top and bottom rondels. If you're making on for yourself, measure the width of your hand and use that for the handle. Then figure the blade length from there.

One of these days I'll finish the one that I stared, just too many other cool projects...

Jamie

Destichado · Post by **Destichado** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 3:10 pm

I would think that a "rondel" dagger with a spherical pommel would cease being a rondel dagger...

the blade on mine is almost exactly three time the length of the handle. Didn't plan it that way. It was originaly an inch and a half longer, but I ran into trouble getting all 12" of narrow blade up to critical temperature with just an oxy-acytelene torch. :oops:

Wyrm · Post by **Wyrm** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 11:16 pm

Thanks for the replies, especially about blade and handle length.

Destichado wrote:I would think that a "rondel" dagger with a spherical pommel would cease being a rondel dagger...

About the rondels I am going to have to disagree. Here are three images from the Royal 20.CVII showing rondel daggers (there are more) with a spherical pommel, so these particular ones did have such pommels. I jsut wanted to make sure I wasnt seeing things. Now you guys have the links to the images you can tell me what you think.

http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/britishli ... t=28&idx=2

http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/britishli ... t=31&idx=2

http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/britishli ... rt=2&idx=2

I also have this from Medieval Arms, Armour and Tactics by Waddell and Palermo:

One of the first Ã¢â‚¬Å“standardÃ¢â‚¬Â