I saw that fourth armoury is completely sold out, and I was crusing around looking at wire tools like draw plates and the like and I saw a pair of draw tongs, does this look like a good base to grind out a pair of riviting tools? Or will the metal be too soft? Anyone who has worked with similar tools know anything?
I was looking to see if there were any drawplates trhat would make for a square wire, which I would then wind up and hammer flat, thinking that it might be easier to make a proper flat ring. Any thoughts on that?
BTW the site I saw the draw tongs:
http://corporate.auctionworks.com/storefrontprofiles/DeluxeSFItemDetail.aspx?sid=200406161319500000000012140731&sfid=101258&c=10038548&i=6423183
Making Riveted Chainmail tools
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Brother Justin
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Konstantin the Red
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Re: Making Riveted Chainmail tools
Brother Justin wrote:I was looking to see if there were any drawplates trhat would make for a square wire, which I would then wind up and hammer flat, thinking that it might be easier to make a proper flat ring. Any thoughts on that?
Yeah -- don't bother. As you coil wire, it twists. This is of no moment with round wire, and it makes coiling into a real PITA with square. If you're going to hammer it flat anyway, the easiest method is just to put it on nice hard metal and whack it with a heavy hammer. This may involve several blows per link which will do frightful things to your wrist bones if you swing the hammer in the normal nail-driving stroke -- instead, choke up on the handle to right near the head and lift and drop the hammer, perhaps with a slight push. A heavy hammer of three or four pounds will usually be best, though lighter hammers will work. They just take more hits, and therefore, take longer.
If you are using an anvil or a really large piece of hardened steel, take advantage of any good rebound it offers to help loft the hammer back up to the top of the stroke. It's remarkable how much assistance this gives over a long hammering session. Just gently tap the hammer face upon the anvil face and it bounces the hammer back up, saving your arm.
"The Minstrel Boy to the war is gone..."
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Templar Bob/De Tyre
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Here are the ones built by the Archiver named Signo (from Italy). Kind of a mailler’s multi-tool:
Signo's maille tong photo
Now, this is the URL for the mock-up for this tool:
Signo’s maille tong schematics
These, with a block of steel, seems to be all you'd really need.
Signo's maille tong photo
Now, this is the URL for the mock-up for this tool:
Signo’s maille tong schematics
These, with a block of steel, seems to be all you'd really need.
<B>Robert L. Coleman, Jr.
Known as Fra Robért de Tyre, Ordo Templum Solomoni</B>
I'm holding out for Steves stuff well saving money for it.But these tools
look pretty good to me.
http://home.tiscali.be/klauwaer/malien/
Hope this helps you
ROC
look pretty good to me.
http://home.tiscali.be/klauwaer/malien/
Hope this helps you
ROC
Brother Justin:
The tongs themselves don't have to be of hardened steel. It is easier to work with them if they are soft. That's why i suggest you to buy cheap tongs. They are usually soft enough to be grinded and filed. But make sure that the joint of the tongs is good. That means that the jaws only should be able to travel up and down but not sidewards
I would not modify draw tongs. While building my punching tongs i found it helpful to have parallel jaws with space between them. That's why i modified something like this: http://www.knipex.de/addons/katalog/sei ... neif08.htm
Simply grind the edges.
I use slightly square wire myself. The wire starts with a round cross section. Then i guide it through a drawplate (selfmade drawplate; i grinded a small slit into a piece of hardened steel; the lenght of the slit does not matter only the width). So i obtain wire with a crosssection that is neither round nor completely square. It looks more like an egg but with flat sides. After this the wire is coiled. This has to happen slowly to prevent the wire from twisting.
When you cut rings from these coils the flat sides lay on top of each other. Now you can flatten the entire ring (i use a hydraulic press) to the desired thickness and there will be no slip-offs.
The tool as seen at Signos side has -from my point of view- a big disadvantage: the piercing or punching bit. I doubt that a bit filed out of the jaw is hard enough to do the job. In addition you will not be able to replace the bit if something goes wrong. And if you make a mistake while modifying the tongs you have to rework the whole tongs. I suggest to build tongs and then add the punching/piercing bit.
Regards
The tongs themselves don't have to be of hardened steel. It is easier to work with them if they are soft. That's why i suggest you to buy cheap tongs. They are usually soft enough to be grinded and filed. But make sure that the joint of the tongs is good. That means that the jaws only should be able to travel up and down but not sidewards
I would not modify draw tongs. While building my punching tongs i found it helpful to have parallel jaws with space between them. That's why i modified something like this: http://www.knipex.de/addons/katalog/sei ... neif08.htm
Simply grind the edges.
I use slightly square wire myself. The wire starts with a round cross section. Then i guide it through a drawplate (selfmade drawplate; i grinded a small slit into a piece of hardened steel; the lenght of the slit does not matter only the width). So i obtain wire with a crosssection that is neither round nor completely square. It looks more like an egg but with flat sides. After this the wire is coiled. This has to happen slowly to prevent the wire from twisting.
When you cut rings from these coils the flat sides lay on top of each other. Now you can flatten the entire ring (i use a hydraulic press) to the desired thickness and there will be no slip-offs.
The tool as seen at Signos side has -from my point of view- a big disadvantage: the piercing or punching bit. I doubt that a bit filed out of the jaw is hard enough to do the job. In addition you will not be able to replace the bit if something goes wrong. And if you make a mistake while modifying the tongs you have to rework the whole tongs. I suggest to build tongs and then add the punching/piercing bit.
Regards
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Brother Justin
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Thanks for the advice. I find the most daunting aspect of making my rivited mail is the aquirement of the tools. I am inexperianced with metallurgy and I just know that any tool I attempt to grand down will be too soft or brittle or something, and the prospect of spending $500 on gear to have other people make it for is is prohibative too. I was thinking about fourtharmoury.com but it appears he is sold out of EVERYTHING.
Thanks for the links, I am going to have to consider my next step.
Thanks for the links, I am going to have to consider my next step.
Yes Sir Esme is right, having the tooth worked out from the metal of the tool instead of added have some disadvantage, but there is a good margin because is the first part that i made, and a cheap tong cost only few euro.
I admit that i punch rings in group before all other tasks, so i can use my first pair of tongs, they were made with the same technique, but on a cheap CrV tong, that didn't need rehardening because i didn't weld nothing on it.
The tong you see in the picture works, but probably the tooth is a little too soft to work a full auberk, like is too soft mild steel for the small plates i've added to flatten rings.
I admit that i punch rings in group before all other tasks, so i can use my first pair of tongs, they were made with the same technique, but on a cheap CrV tong, that didn't need rehardening because i didn't weld nothing on it.
The tong you see in the picture works, but probably the tooth is a little too soft to work a full auberk, like is too soft mild steel for the small plates i've added to flatten rings.
I have built my first set of tongs so that i am able to replace the punchbit if it breaks and the receptable if it's weared. During process of building i can place the receptable exactly were it needs to be and one day if i decide to punch smaller or larger rivetholes i can adjust the tongs within minutes to do that. Furthermore a big advantage of building the tongs like this is, that you can work on each component until you are satisfied with the performance and you don't ruin the whole tool.
And you don't have to be a metall-craftsman to built the tools. I did it without heat treatment. Simply filing, drilling, gluing, cutting.
Regards
And you don't have to be a metall-craftsman to built the tools. I did it without heat treatment. Simply filing, drilling, gluing, cutting.
Regards
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Brother Justin
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The Prospect of making punching tongs and an insight.
The thing is I have seen real mail in museums and it have never seen the rings themselves perfectly round, they look sorta oval or d-shaped even. Anyway, I was thinking of cutting my rings without the overlap, flattening them, then bending them to overlap and them punching the hole for the rivet. Does that seem to insane to anybody?
Also, for those who have actually made their own punching tool, I have seen the instructions for the version that Stephen from fourth armoury made, is that the pattern that y'all followed? How many times did it take to get right?
Also, for those who have actually made their own punching tool, I have seen the instructions for the version that Stephen from fourth armoury made, is that the pattern that y'all followed? How many times did it take to get right?
Yes...most rings seem to be oval. Some of us trace this back to the possibility, that the rings could have been cut without overlap. If you later overlap the rings e.g. with tongs they get this shape.
Concerning your question...I would not suggest doing it that way. If you first flatten the ring and then overlap you will get a step where the two ends meet. This step is neither period nor beautiful...in my opinion. It is one of the points that separates well done maille from the rest.
As i don't do it that way i don't know for sure but there could be problems when piercing this point as the material is twice as thick as the rest of the ring.
I use a round hole punch so my tongs look a little bit different. Nethertheless if i would have to make piercing tongs i would do it a little bit different in opposition to Stephen. As Pekka showed me, i glued the drillbit into a screw, that i screwed through a hole in the jaw. So i am able to lenghten and shorten the punching-bit.
It took me a single pair of tongs, two small drillbits, some screws that i ruined. At my first try the angle between drillbit and jaw was not right but i could fix this by simply drilling the other jaw again. So i didn't had to buy another pair.
Regards
Concerning your question...I would not suggest doing it that way. If you first flatten the ring and then overlap you will get a step where the two ends meet. This step is neither period nor beautiful...in my opinion. It is one of the points that separates well done maille from the rest.
As i don't do it that way i don't know for sure but there could be problems when piercing this point as the material is twice as thick as the rest of the ring.
I use a round hole punch so my tongs look a little bit different. Nethertheless if i would have to make piercing tongs i would do it a little bit different in opposition to Stephen. As Pekka showed me, i glued the drillbit into a screw, that i screwed through a hole in the jaw. So i am able to lenghten and shorten the punching-bit.
It took me a single pair of tongs, two small drillbits, some screws that i ruined. At my first try the angle between drillbit and jaw was not right but i could fix this by simply drilling the other jaw again. So i didn't had to buy another pair.
Regards
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Erik D. Schmid
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Concerning your question...I would not suggest doing it that way. If you first flatten the ring and then overlap you will get a step where the two ends meet. This step is neither period nor beautiful...in my opinion. It is one of the points that separates well done maille from the rest.
Esme, I would like to know where you received the information to make this sort of statement. Do you know something the rest of us don't? Apparently I am doing it wrong.
As I have stated before mail links were made in at least three ways:
1) Lapped then flattened and pierced (lapped area only).
This method is good for 14th century and earlier Italian mail as well as Viking and Roman and pre-Roman.
2) Lapped then flattened and pierced (entire link).
This method is good for 15th century German. One thing to keep in mind is that this method requires only a slight flattening of the lapped area. If it is flattened too much you will end up with too little material to be shaped by the setting tongs. When done correctly the link will have shoulders on either side of the lapped joint. The area that receives the most flattening is the area directly opposite the lapped joint.
3) Flattened then lapped and pierced (entire link).
This method is probably the most common one seen in authentic mail today as there is so much of this style left. It was used throughout Germany and the surrounding areas from at least the 14th century onwards. It was also used by the Romans to a certain degree. However, the Romans used a round/eliptical rivet rather than a wedge shapped one as the Germans did.
In addition to these steps there was also a few normalizing ones thrown in as well. However, we are not sure how many were used. Probably several. It is not that difficult to pierce a thick lapped area, it just tales practice. Lots of it. As everyone is probably aware I don't use piercing tongs but instead use hammer and hand held drift to pierce the holes into the links.[/i]
Esme, I would like to know where you received the information to make this sort of statement. Do you know something the rest of us don't? Apparently I am doing it wrong.
As I have stated before mail links were made in at least three ways:
1) Lapped then flattened and pierced (lapped area only).
This method is good for 14th century and earlier Italian mail as well as Viking and Roman and pre-Roman.
2) Lapped then flattened and pierced (entire link).
This method is good for 15th century German. One thing to keep in mind is that this method requires only a slight flattening of the lapped area. If it is flattened too much you will end up with too little material to be shaped by the setting tongs. When done correctly the link will have shoulders on either side of the lapped joint. The area that receives the most flattening is the area directly opposite the lapped joint.
3) Flattened then lapped and pierced (entire link).
This method is probably the most common one seen in authentic mail today as there is so much of this style left. It was used throughout Germany and the surrounding areas from at least the 14th century onwards. It was also used by the Romans to a certain degree. However, the Romans used a round/eliptical rivet rather than a wedge shapped one as the Germans did.
In addition to these steps there was also a few normalizing ones thrown in as well. However, we are not sure how many were used. Probably several. It is not that difficult to pierce a thick lapped area, it just tales practice. Lots of it. As everyone is probably aware I don't use piercing tongs but instead use hammer and hand held drift to pierce the holes into the links.[/i]
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Brother Justin
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Drill through the rings...
The rings are made from soft steel, and regardless of how you flatten them, there will be a flat overlapping section. Instead of pounding each ring with a hole or jamming a pokey through it with piercing tongs, what about a drill bit that was made for steel and drilling a hole through?
Just a thought...
Thruthfully if I am going to spend a year of evenings in front of the TV making mail I would like to find a method that doesn't involve a year's worth of pounding. Now I can make the rings outside on the weekends by clipping and hammering flat, but to knit the things, i would like a relatively silent solution. (BTW, I consider powertools evil too, because I can't stand all the noise they make. Of course I still use them because I am lazy.
)
So it is punch tongs for me. So I am going to have to disassemble tile nippers and drill holes into it so I can set a hard pokey in them? I really don't want to buy a drill press and a grinder just so I can make myself some punch tongs. Any methods out there that doesn't involve access to major powertools?
Just a thought...
Thruthfully if I am going to spend a year of evenings in front of the TV making mail I would like to find a method that doesn't involve a year's worth of pounding. Now I can make the rings outside on the weekends by clipping and hammering flat, but to knit the things, i would like a relatively silent solution. (BTW, I consider powertools evil too, because I can't stand all the noise they make. Of course I still use them because I am lazy.
)
So it is punch tongs for me. So I am going to have to disassemble tile nippers and drill holes into it so I can set a hard pokey in them? I really don't want to buy a drill press and a grinder just so I can make myself some punch tongs. Any methods out there that doesn't involve access to major powertools?
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Konstantin the Red
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Brother Justin
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Masonry nails? I didn't realize that the steel in Masonry nails was hard enough that when I sharpened them, the point would hold when I cram it through the links. NOw i know that the links are annealed so they are soft, do the links get hardened again after they are constructed?
So, now in my mental image I have sofened overlapping rings that are oval or d-shaped, because I have pulled the wire through a draw plate to it is semi square, wound them on a mandrel, cut them with pinchers, overlapped them with pliers, flattened them with an anvil and chasing hammer.
So I am ready to punch holes into my rings, and I have, say, modified tile nippers, that have filed down and heat hardened masonry nails in them. Here is where I falter. Because I have seen those things online, and they screws holding the nails inside the nippers... how do I bore a hole in the nippers with threads so I can secure a masonry nail in them? I invision expensive tools.
So, now in my mental image I have sofened overlapping rings that are oval or d-shaped, because I have pulled the wire through a draw plate to it is semi square, wound them on a mandrel, cut them with pinchers, overlapped them with pliers, flattened them with an anvil and chasing hammer.
So I am ready to punch holes into my rings, and I have, say, modified tile nippers, that have filed down and heat hardened masonry nails in them. Here is where I falter. Because I have seen those things online, and they screws holding the nails inside the nippers... how do I bore a hole in the nippers with threads so I can secure a masonry nail in them? I invision expensive tools.
I use the BARE essentials. I used a Dremel to grind a notch in some old diagonal cutters for making overlapped rings. My pierce is a filed-down masonry nail. I've tried other pierces, but masonry nails work well, and they're dirt cheap. I normalize the rings in an old charcoal Weber barbeque, once before flattening, and once before piercing. I don't even have a big chunk of steel, let alone an anvil. I flatten with a 4 lb. mini sledge over an old 4 in. masonry chisel on a stump. Oh, and I set and pein the rivets by hand. With a tiny ballpein hammer. Slow, tedious, and noisy, but cheap. You have to set your priorities first, then adapt a system that works for you. For me, cost effectiveness was more important than noise or speed. But I'm only a 16 year old medieval enthusiast trying to make armor in my parent's basement. You'll find your ideal system soon enough. The Archive has set me straight many a time.
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Brother Justin
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forgive me if i am confused but, why are you gonna pierce the rings on a anvil when using a hand punch you could use a piece of wood so youre punch will hold its hardness and shape longer.
a hand punch is gonna be easier to make and use (your poor hands) than punch tongs.
personaly I am gonna make some setting tongs out of flat nose pliers with a depression drilled into one side and a hand punch on a wooden block for punching and a hammer on a block of steel for flattening with a overlap.
coil, cut, normalize, flatten, pierce, rivet half of them then weave and rivet in front of the t.v.
Zerker
a hand punch is gonna be easier to make and use (your poor hands) than punch tongs.
personaly I am gonna make some setting tongs out of flat nose pliers with a depression drilled into one side and a hand punch on a wooden block for punching and a hammer on a block of steel for flattening with a overlap.
coil, cut, normalize, flatten, pierce, rivet half of them then weave and rivet in front of the t.v.
Zerker
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Brother Justin
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Sorry to be confusing. Please allow me to recap my dilemma.
I do not want to punch a hole in my overlapped and flattened rings on an anvil. There are too many rings to in a hauberk and the process of flattening the rings will be noisy enough without more hammering to punch a hole as well.
I do want to use punch tongs to pierce my flattened rings. But the problem is that I find the process of making the punch tongs completely mystifying. I understand that you can grind a pair of, say, tile nippers to have a groove for the punch itself, and on the other side of the nippers you attach a masonry nail so when you squeeze them together the sharpened masonry mail pokes through the flattened ring and into the groove on the other side.
So this is my eternal quandry:
How am I going to secure the spike into the tile nippers so it is secure and replaceable?
The spike will eventually dull sometime during 12000 rings. I am going to have to resharpen and reharden the thing eventually. I thought about only drilling partway through the tile nippers, but then that leaves me with a spike that can fall out. I can try to glue it in, but then the riveted ring's hold will be stronger than the glue holding the spike in place. I thought about somehow clamping onto the spike itself so it won't fall out of the hole drilled completely through the tile, but I thought about a perpendicular hole through the the previous hole AND the masonry nail that is going through it, and running a 'locking rod' through it. But then I was wondering how to make sure that the locking rod wasn't going to fall out, and I'd rather not use something as lame as tape.
Every example I have seen online (with the exception of the one at The Ringlord ) has screws holding the spike in place. Without having access to a machinist's shop, how did they drill the groves for the screw into the holes, is there a special drill bit you can use? I think I may be close to a solution, but even still I have been thinking about this for a very long time and have yet to think of a solution.
I do not want to punch a hole in my overlapped and flattened rings on an anvil. There are too many rings to in a hauberk and the process of flattening the rings will be noisy enough without more hammering to punch a hole as well.
I do want to use punch tongs to pierce my flattened rings. But the problem is that I find the process of making the punch tongs completely mystifying. I understand that you can grind a pair of, say, tile nippers to have a groove for the punch itself, and on the other side of the nippers you attach a masonry nail so when you squeeze them together the sharpened masonry mail pokes through the flattened ring and into the groove on the other side.
So this is my eternal quandry:
How am I going to secure the spike into the tile nippers so it is secure and replaceable?
The spike will eventually dull sometime during 12000 rings. I am going to have to resharpen and reharden the thing eventually. I thought about only drilling partway through the tile nippers, but then that leaves me with a spike that can fall out. I can try to glue it in, but then the riveted ring's hold will be stronger than the glue holding the spike in place. I thought about somehow clamping onto the spike itself so it won't fall out of the hole drilled completely through the tile, but I thought about a perpendicular hole through the the previous hole AND the masonry nail that is going through it, and running a 'locking rod' through it. But then I was wondering how to make sure that the locking rod wasn't going to fall out, and I'd rather not use something as lame as tape.
Every example I have seen online (with the exception of the one at The Ringlord ) has screws holding the spike in place. Without having access to a machinist's shop, how did they drill the groves for the screw into the holes, is there a special drill bit you can use? I think I may be close to a solution, but even still I have been thinking about this for a very long time and have yet to think of a solution.
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William de Grey
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What you are looking for is a tap. You can go to your local hardware store and get a drill and tap set. There is a matching size for the drill and tap for each size of screw size. The drill is smaller than the hole for the screw, and the tap cuts the gruves for the screw. You should make a flat on the punch for the screw to sit on, so that it doesn't slip.
William
William
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Brother Justin
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"I can try to glue it in, but then the riveted ring's hold will be stronger than the glue holding the spike in place"
You don't have to fear this. When using epoxy-resin-glue (i believe to remember, that "araldite" is one of the tradesnames) the connection is a lot more stronger than forces that may occur when the punch bit stucks in the ring.
But i wouldn't glue it directly into the jaw because you probably won't be able to remove it, when it breakes.
Drill completely through the jaw, glue the masonry-punchbit into the screw and screw the screw into the hole. To hold the screw in place simply use nuts. You won't need a tap set....nethertheless a drillpress is very usefull. I use the one from dremel. but since i don't how how large masonry nails are i don't know if the holes you are able to drill with a dremel are large enough.
Regards
PS.: Erik, would you please be so kind to post sources of rings with overlapping areas neither complete flat nor with watershed effect but with step!? Even as a german i am not aware of such maille.
You don't have to fear this. When using epoxy-resin-glue (i believe to remember, that "araldite" is one of the tradesnames) the connection is a lot more stronger than forces that may occur when the punch bit stucks in the ring.
But i wouldn't glue it directly into the jaw because you probably won't be able to remove it, when it breakes.
Drill completely through the jaw, glue the masonry-punchbit into the screw and screw the screw into the hole. To hold the screw in place simply use nuts. You won't need a tap set....nethertheless a drillpress is very usefull. I use the one from dremel. but since i don't how how large masonry nails are i don't know if the holes you are able to drill with a dremel are large enough.
Regards
PS.: Erik, would you please be so kind to post sources of rings with overlapping areas neither complete flat nor with watershed effect but with step!? Even as a german i am not aware of such maille.
a solution to youre delima is to get a pair of flat nosed pliers that unscrew so that you can take them appart and hold one jaw in the vise (or Fclamp on edge of bench) then weld/solder (sp?) the nail in place.
to replace the nail use a cutting disc on a angle grinder to cut the nail where it meets the jaw face and then weld/solder in another nail.
this is if the tap dosent work out as planned.
to replace the nail use a cutting disc on a angle grinder to cut the nail where it meets the jaw face and then weld/solder in another nail.
this is if the tap dosent work out as planned.
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Brian W. Rainey
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Why go through all the trouble with these punching tongs? Why not simply use a drift?
Something tells me that the theory K.I.S.S. (Keep it simple, stupid) is the best answer here.
I do not understand why people insist on going through the trouble of making tongs when you can simply grind down a hardened nail and have the arguably correct tool for the job.
The ability for people to make a simple job absurdly difficult befuddles me.
Something tells me that the theory K.I.S.S. (Keep it simple, stupid) is the best answer here.
I do not understand why people insist on going through the trouble of making tongs when you can simply grind down a hardened nail and have the arguably correct tool for the job.
The ability for people to make a simple job absurdly difficult befuddles me.
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Brother Justin
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Sorry to befuddle you, Brian.
Let me explain my problem again very, very simply so you can understand it:
I do not want to use a hammer to strike a point through ring because I will have enough hammering with flattening them in the first place.
I want to use punching tongs so at least one step in the process I can do inside and not have a hammer in my hand.
I cannot explain it more succinctly.
Now that may make me absurd and stupid, but there's enough evidence out there to show that I am not alone in my stupidity.
Now before this becomes a flame... (sheds the bad energy)
I want to thank everyone for being so helpful, I think I finally have the procedure on how to make the things in my head, and even though I'm intrigued by the tap, I think the Screw & Nut with the mail glued/hammered inside is the best idea yet. I will be heading to the hardware store this week to gather my supplies! so I can draw my plans out. I will be posting my progress in this thread.
Let me explain my problem again very, very simply so you can understand it:
I do not want to use a hammer to strike a point through ring because I will have enough hammering with flattening them in the first place.
I want to use punching tongs so at least one step in the process I can do inside and not have a hammer in my hand.
I cannot explain it more succinctly.
Now that may make me absurd and stupid, but there's enough evidence out there to show that I am not alone in my stupidity.
Now before this becomes a flame... (sheds the bad energy)
I want to thank everyone for being so helpful, I think I finally have the procedure on how to make the things in my head, and even though I'm intrigued by the tap, I think the Screw & Nut with the mail glued/hammered inside is the best idea yet. I will be heading to the hardware store this week to gather my supplies! so I can draw my plans out. I will be posting my progress in this thread.
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Frederick The Heavy
- Archive Member
- Posts: 515
- Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Grants Pass, Or
I know you said this is not how you want to make maille but it works for me. Just a sample of the many differant ways to get it done. I'm also one that goes for the K.I.S.S. method. Not much help for you, but I hope everyone enjoys it.
http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Cov ... essay.html
Man I need to get back to my maille making............
http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Cov ... essay.html
Man I need to get back to my maille making............
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Brother Justin
- Archive Member
- Posts: 137
- Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2002 2:01 am
- Location: was New Orleans, then Dallas, now Chicago
- Contact:
-
Erik D. Schmid
- Archive Member
- Posts: 667
- Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: St. Cloud, MN
- Contact:
Esme,
Here are a couple of pictures showing mail links that were lapped before being flattened. Notice how the lapped area has only been slightly flattened whereas the area directly opposite the joint has been flattened much more. The first picture shows this more than the second.
Mail sample made from links closed with a staple.
[img]http://www.cloudnet.com/~erikdschmid/1.jpg[/img]
Mail sample like above, but only having a single rivet dome.
[img]http://www.cloudnet.com/~erikdschmid/2.jpg[/img]
So, does being German automatically entitle you to knowledge about mail? Are you supposed to know more than others? Don't take this the wrong way. I was just curious after reading that sentence.
Justin,
The tone of your response to Brian is one of arrogance. There is no call for that type of rudeness. After reading your posts on this thread it is clear you are pretty clueless about making riveted mail. Brian is a good friend of mine and when he mentioned the rude tone of your e-mail to him after he was kind enough to offer you advice privately I was a bit shocked, but then the shock turned to disgust. I was going to let it go, but after reading your response to him here and the fact that you seemed to disregard my post I felt I should offer you a few words of wisdom.
By your own admission you are lazy. I got that impression of you before you posted it. Making proper riveted mail is not a totally quiet process and it never will be. You keep going on about how you will have enough pounding just flattening the links on the weekends etc...
Here, let's recap your process as you want to do it and I will offer my insights.
I was looking to see if there were any drawplates trhat would make for a square wire, which I would then wind up and hammer flat, thinking that it might be easier to make a proper flat ring. Any thoughts on that?
The first question that comes to my mind is why? Here we have another subject that has been discussed to death. If you have looked at real mail as you claim then you would be able to see that the wire was round to begin with and then flattened except in the case of round section mail.
Thruthfully if I am going to spend a year of evenings in front of the TV making mail I would like to find a method that doesn't involve a year's worth of pounding. Now I can make the rings outside on the weekends by clipping and hammering flat, but to knit the things, i would like a relatively silent solution.
Even if you were to use punching tongs to make your hole in the lapped portion of the link, you are still going to have to use a hammer to set the rivet. Hand pressure alone will not do it properly. The process I use to make mail can be easily done in an apartment without disturbing your neighbors. I know this because I did it for several years.
What I would do if I were you is to buy a set of tools from one of the several people who sell them. That way you won't have to worry about making them yourself, since you don't have the skills for it.
I really don't want to go the pound on an anvil with a punch and a hammer method. Too noisy and generally too hot outside to do it.
Have you ever tried it with mail? Honestly we are not talking about making horseshoes here. Making mail links is not that noisy.
A tap huh? Seems too easy... I guess my angst is the price you pay for having a librarian for a father instead of a manly tool guy for a dad.
Nice to see you hold your father in such high regard.
Most of the problems you seem to be experiencing have been dealt with by others who found themselves in your shoes at one time or another. Why not just do a search for this subject here and on Arador. I am sure you will find plenty of information to help you out.
Here are a couple of pictures showing mail links that were lapped before being flattened. Notice how the lapped area has only been slightly flattened whereas the area directly opposite the joint has been flattened much more. The first picture shows this more than the second.
Mail sample made from links closed with a staple.
[img]http://www.cloudnet.com/~erikdschmid/1.jpg[/img]
Mail sample like above, but only having a single rivet dome.
[img]http://www.cloudnet.com/~erikdschmid/2.jpg[/img]
Even as a german i am not aware of such maille.
So, does being German automatically entitle you to knowledge about mail? Are you supposed to know more than others? Don't take this the wrong way. I was just curious after reading that sentence.
Justin,
The tone of your response to Brian is one of arrogance. There is no call for that type of rudeness. After reading your posts on this thread it is clear you are pretty clueless about making riveted mail. Brian is a good friend of mine and when he mentioned the rude tone of your e-mail to him after he was kind enough to offer you advice privately I was a bit shocked, but then the shock turned to disgust. I was going to let it go, but after reading your response to him here and the fact that you seemed to disregard my post I felt I should offer you a few words of wisdom.
By your own admission you are lazy. I got that impression of you before you posted it. Making proper riveted mail is not a totally quiet process and it never will be. You keep going on about how you will have enough pounding just flattening the links on the weekends etc...
Here, let's recap your process as you want to do it and I will offer my insights.
I was looking to see if there were any drawplates trhat would make for a square wire, which I would then wind up and hammer flat, thinking that it might be easier to make a proper flat ring. Any thoughts on that?
The first question that comes to my mind is why? Here we have another subject that has been discussed to death. If you have looked at real mail as you claim then you would be able to see that the wire was round to begin with and then flattened except in the case of round section mail.
Thruthfully if I am going to spend a year of evenings in front of the TV making mail I would like to find a method that doesn't involve a year's worth of pounding. Now I can make the rings outside on the weekends by clipping and hammering flat, but to knit the things, i would like a relatively silent solution.
Even if you were to use punching tongs to make your hole in the lapped portion of the link, you are still going to have to use a hammer to set the rivet. Hand pressure alone will not do it properly. The process I use to make mail can be easily done in an apartment without disturbing your neighbors. I know this because I did it for several years.
What I would do if I were you is to buy a set of tools from one of the several people who sell them. That way you won't have to worry about making them yourself, since you don't have the skills for it.
I really don't want to go the pound on an anvil with a punch and a hammer method. Too noisy and generally too hot outside to do it.
Have you ever tried it with mail? Honestly we are not talking about making horseshoes here. Making mail links is not that noisy.
A tap huh? Seems too easy... I guess my angst is the price you pay for having a librarian for a father instead of a manly tool guy for a dad.
Nice to see you hold your father in such high regard.
Most of the problems you seem to be experiencing have been dealt with by others who found themselves in your shoes at one time or another. Why not just do a search for this subject here and on Arador. I am sure you will find plenty of information to help you out.
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Brian W. Rainey
- Archive Member
- Posts: 2646
- Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2003 1:01 am
- Location: McHenry, IL USA
- Contact:
Erik,
I have provided Justin with a pleathora of valuable information sources/topics.
If advice is headed he is well on his way to being an informed maille maker, unlike many.
In hindsite I should have been a bit more informative in my post rather than simple statement.
I have also offered Justin a copy of the Journal which I have in my bag and ready to send. I think he will find it informative.
I have provided Justin with a pleathora of valuable information sources/topics.
If advice is headed he is well on his way to being an informed maille maker, unlike many.
In hindsite I should have been a bit more informative in my post rather than simple statement.
I have also offered Justin a copy of the Journal which I have in my bag and ready to send. I think he will find it informative.
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Brother Justin
- Archive Member
- Posts: 137
- Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2002 2:01 am
- Location: was New Orleans, then Dallas, now Chicago
- Contact:
The tone of your response to Brian is one of arrogance. There is no call for that type of rudeness. After reading your posts on this thread it is clear you are pretty clueless about making riveted mail. Brian is a good friend of mine and when he mentioned the rude tone of your e-mail to him after he was kind enough to offer you advice privately I was a bit shocked, but then the shock turned to disgust. I was going to let it go, but after reading your response to him here and the fact that you seemed to disregard my post I felt I should offer you a few words of wisdom.
It is good of you to defend your friend. I may have been rude, but the post I was replying to was percieved by me as rude. Our private conversation quickly took on a completley different tone than the one you saw. Consider it an accidentally bad first impression. Brian has allready been very helpful and informative about the problems with my approach. He has offered further assistance and I'm sure that you may not feel I am deserving of it but I am very grateful.
Admittedly I am clueless about rivited mail. I welcome your wisdom about mail.
By your own admission you are lazy. I got that impression of you before you posted it.
Maybe my rudeness deserved rudeness. You said my tone was arrogent. Did my arrogence deserve arrogence too? I know you are DA MAN when it comes to rivited mail. So I do trust your information and took your post to heart. I do however have activites in my life that are not weaving iron. I am unused to giving the impression that I am lazy, self deprecating jests about powertools aside.
I was looking to see if there were any drawplates trhat would make for a square wire, which I would then wind up and hammer flat, thinking that it might be easier to make a proper flat ring. Any thoughts on that?
The first question that comes to my mind is why? Here we have another subject that has been discussed to death. If you have looked at real mail as you claim then you would be able to see that the wire was round to begin with and then flattened except in the case of round section mail.
The only true antique armour I have seen was behind glass at the Art Institute of Chicago. I was speaking of mail worn by and made by recreationists. But as far as the antique goes, roundness of a ring could be the result of wear and tear couldn't it?
What I would do if I were you is to buy a set of tools from one of the several people who sell them. That way you won't have to worry about making them yourself, since you don't have the skills for it.
Well I am not unable to LEARN how to make them though.
A tap huh? Seems too easy... I guess my angst is the price you pay for having a librarian for a father instead of a manly tool guy for a dad.
Nice to see you hold your father in such high regard.
Look, my father's attributes are not of the 'tool-time' varity. It doesn't mean that I have a low regard for him. If I was to infer your reply with the same obtuseness that you replied to me I would have to say that the only qualities the you regard in your father is his ability to wield tools. Is that true?
Are we done with the jabs now? Me and Brian have made up. Can we?
Most of the problems you seem to be experiencing have been dealt with by others who found themselves in your shoes at one time or another. Why not just do a search for this subject here and on Arador. I am sure you will find plenty of information to help you out.
I did and didn't get what at the time I was looking for specificaly. I still find flattening the rings too noisy for indoor work, but I am currently building up to the masonry nail approach to see how noisy that is. You say it is quiet enough, we'll see. Brian has convinced me that the punch tool is not necessary, but I may still make one for sheer spite's sake.
I am trying to get a grip on annealing and hardening. But instead of just going out and buying annealed wire, I am trying to figure out how to do it.
I appreceate your efforts to help even though I pissed you off. I hope this is the end of the flame war.
Nicely answered, Justin.
I would like to add something too in this point. If you are after the 'Steve-mail', then the only time when you need to hammer something is the flattening stage. Piercing the rivet holes and peening the rivets can be well made with different kind of pliers. I repeat: no hammering needed.
I have used hand drifts too, but I have found that piercing pliers work best for me. They are easy to use (it really doesn't take much power to make a tiny little hole into a tiny soft iron ring) and easy to get (I make them myself. Making them is a nice thing to learn).
Does that make me stupid, Mr Rainey ? I thought it quite arrogant to hint, that people using piercing pliers are stupid. I certainly didn't know that the hand drift is the only accepted tool to use, oh dear, stupid old me...
Your post was not arrogant at all, Mr Schmid ?
For some reason ErikDSchmid forgot to mention this:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rivetedmaille
It's a nice place, full of nice people (not only authenticy-nazis, if I'm a bit loud mouth there, you can allways tell me to shut up
).
Now I must run away and hide, before Erik and Brian turn their wrath against me
Have fun,
Pekka
I would like to add something too in this point. If you are after the 'Steve-mail', then the only time when you need to hammer something is the flattening stage. Piercing the rivet holes and peening the rivets can be well made with different kind of pliers. I repeat: no hammering needed.
I have used hand drifts too, but I have found that piercing pliers work best for me. They are easy to use (it really doesn't take much power to make a tiny little hole into a tiny soft iron ring) and easy to get (I make them myself. Making them is a nice thing to learn).
Does that make me stupid, Mr Rainey ? I thought it quite arrogant to hint, that people using piercing pliers are stupid. I certainly didn't know that the hand drift is the only accepted tool to use, oh dear, stupid old me...
Your post was not arrogant at all, Mr Schmid ?
For some reason ErikDSchmid forgot to mention this:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rivetedmaille
It's a nice place, full of nice people (not only authenticy-nazis, if I'm a bit loud mouth there, you can allways tell me to shut up
).
Now I must run away and hide, before Erik and Brian turn their wrath against me
Have fun,
Pekka
Pekka wrote:For some reason ErikDSchmid forgot to mention this:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rivetedmaille
umm no offence, but why would eric need to mention it? Eric being one ot the world's leading men on mail it would seem a tad funny to list other peoples work other than that of his own. check out th eMail Research Journal if you can get ahold of it. For some reaseon Eric's site is down but check here: http://www.rpgmall.com/product_info.php ... s_id=32732 Its a great read and worth its weight in gold on riveted mail. there is also other stuff in it like armour inventories etc.
None taken,
He did say:
"Why not just do a search for this subject here and on Arador"
On Yahoo-group site there is no need for any search. It's all just about the riveted mail.
And there is other mail in the world than just ErikDSchmid-mail, or am I mistaken ?
Unfortunately I can't get that journal into my hands.
Have fun, it's weekend ahead !
Pekka
He did say:
"Why not just do a search for this subject here and on Arador"
On Yahoo-group site there is no need for any search. It's all just about the riveted mail.
And there is other mail in the world than just ErikDSchmid-mail, or am I mistaken ?
Unfortunately I can't get that journal into my hands.
Have fun, it's weekend ahead !
Pekka
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Erik D. Schmid
- Archive Member
- Posts: 667
- Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: St. Cloud, MN
- Contact:
Hello Justin,
Glad I was able to ruffle your feathers a bit. My posts on these forums generally have a slight tone of arrogance and rudeness to them. It's just my way of expressing myself. After spending years on various fora I have noticed that when I am pleasant and nice nobody really seems to pay attention to what I am saying. So, I tend to drift into asshole land from time to time. 
To a certain degree yes. However, not to the level that you are perceiving. Normally only the inner edge of the link gets worn down any noticeable degree.
Then chances are you are hitting the links too hard. A softened iron/mild steel link does not require much effort at all to flatten it.
Again, a light tapping is all that is needed to pierce a hole into the lapped ends of the link. However, I will say that in order to set the rivet inplace and shape the lapped area, a forcefull strike is needed. Unless you are making the links in the same fashion as those offered by Steve. Then you can do it by hand pressure alone. It will not be as good as a hammer strike, but will do the job adequately enough provided the link is quite soft. The reason being is that the links are flattened a substantial degree with the ends already lapped as they are cut from the coil that way. This gives the link a very broadened lapped area that leaves hardly any metal for shaping. Only by flatteniing the area slightly can shaping be achieved.
Pekka,
In a word yes.
Not because of the piercing tongs you use, but because you took the phrase literally and personally. It is just a saying, so settle down. I realize that this was directed at Brian, but I thought I would answer anyway. If you are striving for the most in accuracy then yes, I believe that the hand drift is the only way to go. It is far easier to produce and with only a bit of practice a person can become proficient at it. Also, if it becomes dull or broken it can be easily repaired.
Of course it was arrogant. I only put in that little disclaimer at the end for shits and giggles.
Oh, and I did not forget to mention the Yahoo group. I simply chose not to. I hardly post there at all. The last time was in February. The two I did mention receive much more traffic and have plenty of information. Also, one does not have to become a member to look at the information. A lot of the information on there is also lacking in quality.
Of course there is other mail, but I don't know of anyone else who takes it to the degree of accuracy that I do. And not just one style, but many. I think that one of the reasons I get referred to as the person to look to for accurate mail is because I am pretty confident that I am the only person who does this for a living all day everyday and have been doing it for the last seven years. How many other people can say this? I'm not trying to toot my own horn here just stating facts.
Have you ever ordered a copy?
Wolf,
The site has changed locations that's all. It can now be found at http://www.cloudnet.com/~erikdschmid However, all of the PDF files and pictures have been taken down for reasons stated on the site. The reasons listed are why the site was moved to a different location as well.
Now, if any of you are in the Minneapolis area anytime in the next three weeks, stop by the Minnesota Renn Fest and you can see my process in person as I do all day demonstrations at the Arms & Armor booth. There are three weekends left of the fest including the upcoming one (tomorrow).
Also, we are having an informal get together to talk about armour related stuff sometime during the week of the 20th at my place. Brian Rainey will be in attendance as he and his family will be staying with us for the week. We have not gotten all of the particulars worked out yet, but we will let everyone know when we do.
Glad I was able to ruffle your feathers a bit.
My posts on these forums generally have a slight tone of arrogance and rudeness to them. It's just my way of expressing myself. After spending years on various fora I have noticed that when I am pleasant and nice nobody really seems to pay attention to what I am saying. So, I tend to drift into asshole land from time to time.
But as far as the antique goes, roundness of a ring could be the result of wear and tear couldn't it?
To a certain degree yes. However, not to the level that you are perceiving. Normally only the inner edge of the link gets worn down any noticeable degree.
I still find flattening the rings too noisy for indoor work,
Then chances are you are hitting the links too hard. A softened iron/mild steel link does not require much effort at all to flatten it.
but I am currently building up to the masonry nail approach to see how noisy that is. You say it is quiet enough, we'll see.
Again, a light tapping is all that is needed to pierce a hole into the lapped ends of the link. However, I will say that in order to set the rivet inplace and shape the lapped area, a forcefull strike is needed. Unless you are making the links in the same fashion as those offered by Steve. Then you can do it by hand pressure alone. It will not be as good as a hammer strike, but will do the job adequately enough provided the link is quite soft. The reason being is that the links are flattened a substantial degree with the ends already lapped as they are cut from the coil that way. This gives the link a very broadened lapped area that leaves hardly any metal for shaping. Only by flatteniing the area slightly can shaping be achieved.
Pekka,
Does that make me stupid, Mr Rainey ? I thought it quite arrogant to hint, that people using piercing pliers are stupid. I certainly didn't know that the hand drift is the only accepted tool to use, oh dear, stupid old me...
In a word yes.
Not because of the piercing tongs you use, but because you took the phrase literally and personally. It is just a saying, so settle down. I realize that this was directed at Brian, but I thought I would answer anyway. If you are striving for the most in accuracy then yes, I believe that the hand drift is the only way to go. It is far easier to produce and with only a bit of practice a person can become proficient at it. Also, if it becomes dull or broken it can be easily repaired.Your post was not arrogant at all, Mr Schmid ?
Of course it was arrogant. I only put in that little disclaimer at the end for shits and giggles.
Oh, and I did not forget to mention the Yahoo group. I simply chose not to. I hardly post there at all. The last time was in February. The two I did mention receive much more traffic and have plenty of information. Also, one does not have to become a member to look at the information. A lot of the information on there is also lacking in quality.
And there is other mail in the world than just ErikDSchmid-mail, or am I mistaken ?
Of course there is other mail, but I don't know of anyone else who takes it to the degree of accuracy that I do. And not just one style, but many. I think that one of the reasons I get referred to as the person to look to for accurate mail is because I am pretty confident that I am the only person who does this for a living all day everyday and have been doing it for the last seven years. How many other people can say this? I'm not trying to toot my own horn here just stating facts.
Unfortunately I can't get that journal into my hands.
Have you ever ordered a copy?
Wolf,
The site has changed locations that's all. It can now be found at http://www.cloudnet.com/~erikdschmid However, all of the PDF files and pictures have been taken down for reasons stated on the site. The reasons listed are why the site was moved to a different location as well.
Now, if any of you are in the Minneapolis area anytime in the next three weeks, stop by the Minnesota Renn Fest and you can see my process in person as I do all day demonstrations at the Arms & Armor booth. There are three weekends left of the fest including the upcoming one (tomorrow).
Also, we are having an informal get together to talk about armour related stuff sometime during the week of the 20th at my place. Brian Rainey will be in attendance as he and his family will be staying with us for the week.
We have not gotten all of the particulars worked out yet, but we will let everyone know when we do.-
Steve S.
- Archive Member
- Posts: 13327
- Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Huntsville, AL
- Contact:
3) Flattened then lapped and pierced (entire link).
This method is probably the most common one seen in authentic mail today as there is so much of this style left. It was used throughout Germany and the surrounding areas from at least the 14th century onwards. It was also used by the Romans to a certain degree. However, the Romans used a round/eliptical rivet rather than a wedge shapped one as the Germans did.
Hi Erik!
This is interesting - I have never seen any maille example that looked like it had been flattened and then lapped. As was noted, doing this would result in a definite "step" where the lapped ends overlap. All the historical maille I have seen had the ends crushed into one another.
I've only briefly skimmed through this thread, so I will touch on a few points as I understand them. Bear in mind that Erik has done a lot more research and has much more practical experience than I do, and while I have done an extensive amount of research the main thrust of my endeavor was to come up with a repeatable manufacturable technique for mass-producing maille today, in a manner that looks reasonably historical.
There are, to my knowlege, no historical examples of punch tongs. It seems most likely that a simple drift (hand punch) driven into a punch block is the most likely arrangment for making maille historically. This is not to say that a set of punch tongs was not somehow produced. The only tricky part of the contruction of such tongs, as I see it, is the precise alignment of the hole passing from one jaw to the next, and the tapping (with threads) of the hole and screw for the set screw. I don't know if these were historically achievable or not.
Wood will not work for a punch block. I doubt it would last for even a single link. You will want a block of metal with a small hole drilled in it.
Hammering rings flat is somewhat noisy, and I would recommend wearing ear plugs when doing it. However, I also did this work in an apartment with no complaints from my neighbors. I put my anvil (bigger is better) on top of a large rubbermaid tub filled with old clothes. This aborbed a lot of energy that otherwise would have gone into the floor and down to my neighbor below.
Hammer-setting rivets is the way to go. Hand force alone is generally insufficient to get a good rivet set, and is really insufficient to swell the rivet to completely fill the rivet hole as is generally seen with historical maille.
Properly heat treated punch bits generally last a long time without sharpening. Generally my bits have broken before going dull, and they usually break when I get careless.
Punch bits can be made from a variety of things. I use the shanks of 3/16" drill bits. Just about any good piece of steel can be used to make a good punch if you heat treat it properly.
I find punch tongs much easier to use than a hand drift. However, I'm sure with practice one can get just as proficient with the hand drift. It's just that a punch tong takes all the alignment between punch and receptacle out of the skill equation - the tong ensures it every time. You just concentrate on getting the ring into position.
I made my first set of punch tongs with a propane torch, an electric hand drill, a vice, a bench grinder, and a tap.
The job is infinitely easier, safer, and of higher quality if you use a drill press. You can buy cheap drill presses up to the job from Harbor Freight (http://www.harborfreight.com).
Steve
This method is probably the most common one seen in authentic mail today as there is so much of this style left. It was used throughout Germany and the surrounding areas from at least the 14th century onwards. It was also used by the Romans to a certain degree. However, the Romans used a round/eliptical rivet rather than a wedge shapped one as the Germans did.
Hi Erik!
This is interesting - I have never seen any maille example that looked like it had been flattened and then lapped. As was noted, doing this would result in a definite "step" where the lapped ends overlap. All the historical maille I have seen had the ends crushed into one another.
I've only briefly skimmed through this thread, so I will touch on a few points as I understand them. Bear in mind that Erik has done a lot more research and has much more practical experience than I do, and while I have done an extensive amount of research the main thrust of my endeavor was to come up with a repeatable manufacturable technique for mass-producing maille today, in a manner that looks reasonably historical.
There are, to my knowlege, no historical examples of punch tongs. It seems most likely that a simple drift (hand punch) driven into a punch block is the most likely arrangment for making maille historically. This is not to say that a set of punch tongs was not somehow produced. The only tricky part of the contruction of such tongs, as I see it, is the precise alignment of the hole passing from one jaw to the next, and the tapping (with threads) of the hole and screw for the set screw. I don't know if these were historically achievable or not.
Wood will not work for a punch block. I doubt it would last for even a single link. You will want a block of metal with a small hole drilled in it.
Hammering rings flat is somewhat noisy, and I would recommend wearing ear plugs when doing it. However, I also did this work in an apartment with no complaints from my neighbors. I put my anvil (bigger is better) on top of a large rubbermaid tub filled with old clothes. This aborbed a lot of energy that otherwise would have gone into the floor and down to my neighbor below.
Hammer-setting rivets is the way to go. Hand force alone is generally insufficient to get a good rivet set, and is really insufficient to swell the rivet to completely fill the rivet hole as is generally seen with historical maille.
Properly heat treated punch bits generally last a long time without sharpening. Generally my bits have broken before going dull, and they usually break when I get careless.
Punch bits can be made from a variety of things. I use the shanks of 3/16" drill bits. Just about any good piece of steel can be used to make a good punch if you heat treat it properly.
I find punch tongs much easier to use than a hand drift. However, I'm sure with practice one can get just as proficient with the hand drift. It's just that a punch tong takes all the alignment between punch and receptacle out of the skill equation - the tong ensures it every time. You just concentrate on getting the ring into position.
I made my first set of punch tongs with a propane torch, an electric hand drill, a vice, a bench grinder, and a tap.
The job is infinitely easier, safer, and of higher quality if you use a drill press. You can buy cheap drill presses up to the job from Harbor Freight (http://www.harborfreight.com).
Steve