6th century battle (SCA)

[Maelgwyn]

This topic is spun off from the "I can't believe..." thread about the Battle of the 30 at Pensic, where Jehan stated, "...there is no reason whatsoever that devotees of other periods should not strive in like manner. None whatsoever. "

My next thought was "Mons Badonicus. We must do the battle of Mount Badon."

*REVISED DRAFT OF THE RULES* 9/1
The Battle:
The year is 518 AD and Aelle has assembled an alliance of Germanic, Pictish and Irish invaders to finish off the Romanized British forces once and for all. Arthur and his cavalry are besieged in the hill-fort at Mons Badonicus. If allied forces do not draw off some of the attackers and break the siege... The fate of Britain hangs in the balance.

A British warlord has made haste from from the port at Glevum, gathering any troops he can along the way. On the road near Mons Badonicus they encounter a Saxon warband that has been deployed to stop any aid from reaching the main battle. The British must deal with this threat first or risk geting caught between them and the Saxon battle-host.

This 6th century battle pits Saxons, Angles, Frisians, Wends, Picts, Caledonians, Scoti and anyone from the continent they can recruit against Romanized Britons, British tribesmen, Caledonians, Bretons, and anyone from Ireland or the continent they can recruit. Up to 40 fighters with acceptable gear can participate on each side. Any 6th century gear not mentioned here may be allowed if documentation is provided. All fighters will need to bring some "loot" to be found on their bodies if they are killed and some items available for ransom in case they or their friends are captured.

Acceptable gear:
Helm - spangen, ridge or other 6th century helms. No visible spin lines.
Armour - tunic with hidden armour, chain, scale, lamellar, musculata or other 6th century armour
Arms - hidden, leather or splinted. No visible elbow cops or metal-on-metal articulation
Legs - hidden with possible leather or splinted greaves
Shields - round, oval or other 6th century shields with cloth, leather or rawhide edging...no visible hose.

Weapons:
Swords or axes less than 48 inches. Javelins and throwing axes.
Spears and cutting spears (glaives) up to 7.5 feet
Other 6th century weapons
(No bows or crossbows due to the proximity of the spectators)
Basket hilts or gauntlets should be visually minimized with black paint, leather covering or other methods.

Blowcalling:
We are using a partial as-armoured standard where 1-handed blows or thrown missile attacks to visible body armour have no effect. Normal conventions for legal targets and force still apply.
Fatal blows - Any telling cut or thrust or thrown missile to an open face (i.e., a bargrill), neck, armpit, or to a body or leg location with no visible armour. Any 2-handed telling cut or thrust to an armoured body or leg location. A fighter may decide to die from multiple 1-handed strikes to their body armour if they so desire. Any 2-handed telling cut to a helm. All dead bodies will remain where they fell until the end of combat.

Wounds - Any telling cut or thrust or thrown missile to an arm disables that arm.
Stunning - Any 1-handed cut or thrown missile to a helm will count towards a "stun". If you are struck three times to the helm in any single engagement you are counted as stunned and must sit and accept capture. If you get hit twice and then fighting breaks off, you start counting over.

Fighters should be aware of the battering their shields take and consider discarding them at some point.

Anyone still alive may voluntarily leave the field for as long as he wishes to rest and/or rearm at any time.

Capturing Prisoners:
A fighter must sit down in place and accept capture if they are "stunned" or they fall to the ground. At this point any opponent can simply touch you with his weapon or hand and say something to let you know he's captured you (e.g., "you're my prisoner", "yield!", "I've captured you", etc.). If no one does this after 5 seconds (one mississippi...) then you may rise and continue to fight as though nothing had happened. Fighters who are sitting but have not yet been claimed by an enemy may be defended by allies until they recover and return to combat.

The captor must either walk his prisoner off the field or slay him with a light tap with his weapon. While he's walking off the field, the captor may be attacked. If he is killed himself then the prisoner goes free. During such fights the prisoner must stand quietly awaiting the outcome.

Prisoners must stand together off the side of the field. If the person that captured them is "killed" (not captured, *killed*), then they are released and may return to the fighting. If the captor withdraws from the combat alive then he keeps his prisoners and may ransom them even if his side is defeated.

Conclusion:
Combat will last until all of one side are either captured, killed or have fled the battlefield. At the end of the combat the loot items from those who have died go to the side that holds the field to divide as they see fit. Loot items from prisoners go to their captors.

The retinue or friends of any prisoners may offer ransom for them. Other interested parties may make competing offers. If the ransom is not accepted the captor (or subsequent buyers) must keep and maintain their prisoner in a manner befitting their station until acceptable ransom is offered. Or kill them. Ritual sacrifices will not be permitted.

[D. Sebastian]

You have the undevided attention of this 6th Cent Byzantine!

[InsaneIrish]

No Woad?????!!!!!!

How can you have a Battle that explicitly allows Picts without Woad!?

OH, and yes this 10th Cent. Irishman would be interested.

[Josh W]

If you host this anywhere near me, I'll happily throw together an early-period kit in order to get to participate...

[Tom Knighton]

That's enough to make me consider coming to an SCA event

Tom

[Uilleag]

I'll be at Gulf Wars, and this 9th century Irishman is definately interested! I even have the maile and spangen, just have to rebuild my sword and finish my gauntlets!

Lets do this! Late period is fine, but early period is where I'm at. Anything pre Norman works for me!

[Connar]

Count me in......

...and my kit is the balls if you were wondering........just saying.

[Jehan de Pelham]

Capital!

When you thinking of doing this?

Jehan, squire of Sir Vitus

[Maelgwyn]

Connar, are you saying that you would improve your SCA kit just to participate in such a thing?

That was one of my goals...right after having a lot of fun.

Josh, Gulf War is near Hattiesburg, Mississippi March 14-20, 2005. Close enough? Nothing is guaranteed at this point, I'm just floating a balloon here.

Diomedes Sebastianus, the trade ships run from Byzantium to Cornwall bringing wine and olive oil and returning with tin. Surely the Emperor in the East will want to send an...expendable...representative to investigate this Arthur fellow. Saxon incursions might be bad for trade! Bring friends...well-armed friends.

Irish, you can WEAR woad, you just can't BE a Woad. Got it?

Uilleag, I'll be needing a new sword too, and probably a special gauntlet for swordwork. Unless I stick with my cutting-spear (unpadded glaive).

Tom, I'll try to get you a spot in the warband and together we can strike a blow for God, and Right, and the Glory that was Rome. Live or die, it will be the stuff of legends.

Any rule change suggestions?

[InsaneIrish]

Any rule change suggestions?

No Romans?

[Sceotan]

I may have missed something somewhere, what's with the if you touch the ground you surrender rule? It's battle, people fall a lot, shouldn't have to surrender just cause you slipped and fell. If someone put's a blade in you while you're down that's one thing, but if you fall and get up that's another. I've just never really understood or agreed with that rule. A lot of combos can be pulled off nicely, especially for someone as low to the ground as I am, while either rolling or pivitong on the ground with something other than your feet (knees, elbows, shield, etc.) Just my thought.

Sceotan.

[Maelgwyn]

As I understand it the rationale is that a fallen man who is actively engaged could be easily killed or stepped on and then captured, but our rules preclude those actions. The surrender is a next-best approximation. How did this work out for the 30 at Pensic?

[Tom Knighton]

Any rule change suggestions?

No Romans?

[Gomer Pyle voice]Aww...Yer goin straight to hell fer that one [/Gomer Pyle voice]

Tom

[Asbjorn Johansen]

Here are my suggestions, if you can give me more info then I already have on the flow of combat from the period, I should be able to help more. Please give me feedback where my assumptions are off. I’m going off of 10 year old memories hear.

Given the probable numbers, rather then getting into the SCA overstatement of a battle, perhaps “A Raid in Britaniaâ€Â

[Sceotan]

I have to agree with Maelgwyn on this system. This is something similar to what is seen frequently in LH groups and is what works well for the period being portrayed and for the combatents.

Alll this stuff with surrender if you fall, surrender if you loose your weapon, surrender if you get a hang nail on your little right toe, it's all too......unlogical towards Dark Age combat in my eyes. Remember there was no Chivelry at the time, not that I believe many Knights later on fully practiced chivelry anyway but that's another argument all togeather, so these men would simply have done what it takes to A: stay alive and B: win and kill by any means possible and available. Let's face it, a leg blow would not kill someone, they would most likely have died later on either on the field or in a medical tent of some sort, but they wouldn't have died that instant. These men were out for anything and everything they could take using any means they could take it, that should certainly be the focus of the rules within the limits of safety of course.

[Jehan de Pelham]

I kinda agree on the different flavor of chivalry and the behavior of men at arms in the earlier period. Not my area of focus, but it seems like a less "ideal" chivalry would be in order. Now, that doesn't mean that captures and rescues isn't a good idea, as long as you realise that it's a game-ism.

Hopefully, we won't talk this into oblivion, it's certainly an astounding idea, but I don't know that cut and paste from the Combat of the Thirty will work--needs seasoning appropriate to the period.

This is something that early period folks should be discussing, but I'll weigh in:

I would restrict weapons to traditionally defined weapons of the period--swords not longer than 33" (?) in length, spears not longer than 8', axes with handles not longer than 48", daggers, gladii (18" dagger) and spatha, each combatant may bring one javelin?

Shields: Rounds, Ovals or Scutari

I would ditch rule 7 and 8, let people roll about on the ground if they want.

I would be rid of glaives in rule 2--don't know that glaives were about.

I would allow basket hilts--really no way to depict accurately the armor situation, so either case is probably just as good, and more people will find themselves able to participate with baskets.

Rule 3, I would suggest, tentatively:

One-handed: Thrusts kill or disable, strokes disable limbs only.
Two-handed (axes): Thrusts and strokes kill or disable.

There seems sufficient evidence that mail with gambeson was goodly protection against cuts.

Institute a death on the ground rule--someone can touch a weapon to the face grill of a downed foeman and claim him dead.

Ransom will consist of gifts appropriate to the period, each man at arms to bring their worth in gift.

Jehan, squire of Sir Vituis

[Asbjorn Johansen]

What was the treatment of prisoners at this time? I know examples pre and post this period of enslavement. That is sort of what I'm trying to model here. Is that the correct model, or is it just a pure fight to the death/run away situation?

Ransom probably is the wrong terminology here, I'm thinking that its more a case of the value of a slave versus the value of equipment. Also there would be a tension between working for the benefit of your warband and fighting to capture valuable loot for yourself.

What I'm trying to do with my rules is:

Give folks an incentive not to die.
If it’s appropriate, give the enemy a good reason to capture you, i.e. a live possible slave is worth more then a dead body’s equipment.

Thinking about it maybe my totals were off, but it’s a hard thing to get the balance right. You want to give a good incentive not too die which means you set the death cost high. On the other hand you want the enemy to see a real benefit if they capture you, so you want to make catching you worth the risk of not killing you.

Perhaps – If you are killed you give $10 to the tourney sponsor and $5 to the commander of the side that killed you. If you are captured, you give $10 to your captor. If you are killed you may not receive any funds even if you captured others or the commander of your side has offered you a split of his loot.


I wish we could let people roll on the ground more. Once you are on the ground, I have found grappling to be fairly safe, but its SCA, so you have to avoid situations which cause direct body to body contact.

[Jehan de Pelham]

Is Maelgwyn setting this up or is Asbjorn, or both?

Jehan, squire of Sir Vitus

[Connar]

Connar, are you saying that you would improve your SCA kit just to participate in such a thing?

Hell no!!

I mean "the balls" in the sense that it would be damn near perfect for this..

http://www.hausvdk.com/galleries/Boredo ... _009bw.jpg

I'm the guy just right of center...running.

http://www.hausvdk.com/galleries/Blacks ... Connar.jpg

...again...closer look.

I feel I've waited my whole life for this battle...and I can ride down with D. Sebatian!![/url]

[Maelgwyn]

Ok, now we are getting to some meaty discussion.

Asbjorn, I see why you want death to carry a "cost" but I feel that adding money to this is not the right direction. $20 means nothing to some fighters and means no dinner tonight for others. I just don't want to go there. I am very open to other ideas that might make a "retreat in good order" preferable to "fight to the last man". I will give this more thought and encourage the rest of you still reading this to do likewise.

As for prisoners, they would have some value as slaves but that is offset by the risks and logistics of keeping enemy warriors in camp...parole is not even a glimmer of a concept so far as I know. I would expect all but the most famous (lucrative) prisoners to be killed unless they were captured very close to the edge of the field.

I wanted to keep the conventions similar enough to the 30 so that fighters could get a sense of how these things are done and only need to remember a few logical changes rather than an entire new rule set. I'm hoping that such affrays can become common, frequent, and typical for any large kingdom or interkingdom event.

Typical 6th century body armours start with none at all, then chain, then lamellar or scale. One or two Roman officer's musculata might survive, and leather imitations of metal musculata, lamellar or scale seem to be likely according to some scholars. I think allowing visible armour to stop 1-handed blows is realistic for this time period...there will be enough targets left so that sword-and-shield is still effective.

I like the "dead bodies stay put" suggestion. It also provides another use for unwanted prisoners.

I'll try re-stating the rules in terms of types of blows, that does seem to make more sense.

The only 2-handed weapons will be axes under 48" and spears up to 7.5', which may have cutting edges and therefore fall under "glaive" or "unpadded glaive" rules. I'd like to see some realistic test cutting experiments for this technique but for now I will assume that the available body armour is vulverable to cuts and thrusts from these weapons. Longer spears were used from horseback but not on foot to the best of my knowledge. With this small of an encounter I don't expect to see the density and chaos of combat that we get in big battles so I think we will know what hit us. Do others think I am mistaken in this?

Javelins and throwing axes are in, thanks Jehan. How about bows and crossbows too? No historical reason to exclude them. Shield standards are needed, but scutari hadn't been seen for centuries...rounds, ovals, or other shapes with 6th century documentation.

Historical accounts including those in the sagas seem to indicate that most leg wounds are either insignificant (light!) or the guy falls down and dies right away. Sceotan, both medical and historical sources disagree with you on this one.

I would say that the "chivalry" of the time included many virtues but involved far less consideration for your opponent. You would not "allow him to yield honorably and accept his parole" but you might take prisoners for use in future negotiations or capture someone who was at a momentary disadvantage and then quickly kill them.

I have enough input here to try a revised draft. I'll edit the original post and noted the time of the most recent change.

Keep those good ideas coming!

[D. Sebastian]

Shields:
Rounds, ovals, squares, and semeterical coffins.

Weapons:
Swords, axes, cutting spears, flax, javelin, and daggars or other justifiable 6th century weapons

Helm:
spangen, ridge or other 6th century helms. No visible spin lines.

Armour:
Chain, scale, lamellar, "none" (must be VERY well hidden) or other justifiable 6th century armour

Arms:
hidden, leather, splinted, (Bozubands?,) and chain
no visible elbow cops or articulation

Legs:
hidden with possible leather or splinted greaves or other justifiable 6th century armour (e.g. manica).



Each combattant carries a pouch of "booty". If they are killed or captured, the booty is taken. The booty can be anything, but should be worthy of the individuals station (rings, chains, polished stones, pressed coins, a treasure map!, etc). Each fighter should keep a second booty off the field with a retainer. This second booty is to be used as ransom (I think this is justifiable as a Persian practice). This will encourage captures as there is more booty!!


I like the retreat, beg for mercy and dead stay on the field.
I like the idea of a "counted location" blows, but I need to chew on it more.
I like the hilt AND gauntlets or basket.

[Asbjorn Johansen]

I'm giving commentary for the GW. I'd love to see someone offer to run this through the HCS next Pennsic.

My earliest kit is a Norse kit with a goggled spangen helm. I don't think this goggled helm goes back this far, but its not my area of expertise. I believe there are some goggled Anglo Saxon helms, but I thought those only went to the 8th century not the 6th, but I’m not sure.

[D. Sebastian]

Cover the helm with chainmaile: sides back and front (over the lower ocular) and it would be ok for Roman / Persian Cataphractos

[Connar]

Okay...so this is starting to look as if it will really happen.

I actually have a voucher from Continental Airlines, so this is getting serious for me....when is Gulf Wars?

[Maelgwyn]

Who was using symetrical coffin shields or a dacian falx in the 6th century?

I presume you didn't really mean flax!
If flax is your weapon you need to wash your linen tunic more often!

We seem to be reaching some common ground here...see the latest revision above.

[Maelgwyn]

Connar, nothing is serious until several kinds of approval are obtained. That's why I'm eager to iron things out so far in advance. I've gotten started with that and I'll keep you posted.

Even if nothing formal gets approved there will be a substantial number of 6th century warriors in one place and a number of kindred spirits to compare armour ideas with at Gulf War. Some kind of fighting is bound to occur.

The battle might need to happen at another time for various reasons. Lillies War might be a second choice...we might hold the "high personna" battle first and then let the survivors join in an "open" battle with the same underlying theme.

Lots of possibilities.

[Asbjorn Johansen]

The Combat of the 30 is different enough from normal SCA combat that most folks won’t be “usedâ€Â

[D. Sebastian]

Who was using symetrical coffin shields or a dacian falx in the 6th century?

I presume you didn't really mean flax!
If flax is your weapon you need to wash your linen tunic more often!

You may have me on the coffin, I think I'm way off on that one.

Flax: ok, I'm thinking of a wapon... short handle... long blade curved forward at the end... used early against Rome and then showed up again in Byzantine hands...


What about the loot / booty? Is that a good idea? (Me proud of that one!)


Connar - We could try to get it together for Crusades as an early day event, or do a mini one at 100 min?

[D. Sebastian]

Agreed Pennsic would be the ultimate for this.

Kudoes Maelgwyn for lighting this fire. Thanks to "the 30" for the inspiration.
I'm uber excited about the potential of this.

I'd like it to be differnt thatn "the 30" though. Keep it honorable, but a differnt kind of "Chivalry".

[Maelgwyn]

D., I like the loot but I don't want it to get damaged, so I've written it in so that it stays off the field and provides incentive for both taking prisoners and staying alive.

The 30 really proved we can do this. I hope to see a dozen variations at events, starting soon.

I don't plan to make it to Pensic anytime soon, so I am selfishly seeking other venues.

I didn't know the Byzantines used a falx in the 6th century...it would be uncommon enough in Britain that I wouldn't want to encourage lots of them. I think this is an example where you should bring documentation but it would certainly be allowed. Bazubands are probably in the same category.

[Murdock]

I'll dust off my early period rig i accasionaly use for Viking Raids and play.

Anything that's more history and less sport.

[Lloyd]

You guys almost have me wanting to get back in the SCA.

One "offer" I would like to throw out. My wife and I recently incorporated an educational NPO with the goal of building an open-air museum in Wisconsin. The museum would be a recreation of a 5th-6th Century Romano-British hillfort/village.

We hope to be able to break ground sometime next Fall and have the initial building phase complete by Spring 2006. If you are still interested in this, and might consider an entire weekend of "Dark Ages" reenactment, I am sure that we can work through the local groups to set it up.

For more info, check out: www.historiccamelot.org

Cheers!

[ingusmoen]

This might be completely dismissed right away, but my thought for the basket hilt situation?

Say no basket hilts, gauntlets for everyone, but unlike normal rules, PRETEND THEY'RE NOT THERE. IF someone Smacks your hand with a sword or other weapon, you might not recognize it with a basket hilt, but you will with gauntlets. LOSE THE HAND. That certainly a good disabling wound. Gauntlets no longer make your hands indestructible, and a person who can't hold a sword can't swing it, hence the need for good quillons. A slash might not disable it, but a good swing or a thrust would.

What does everyone think about that?

By the by, this Norseman from MN would love to play in this!

[D. Sebastian]

That could be devistating to the axe and cutting spear guys, BUT since the axe and cutting spears do more damage (kill vs stunn) it would be a ballancing factor.

I think I like it.


Here is a question:
Mail worked well against sword slashes (or they would not have worn it for a melinia right?), but I think thrusts from a spear would pennetrate. What about javalins?

[D. Sebastian]

Had another brainstorm on the ride to work...

Dead - lie down on the ground, stay there till the end.

Stunned - SIT down on the ground until:
1) an allied member taps you shoulder with their hand and commands you to rise (un-stunned).
2) an enemy taps you shoulder with their hand and commands you to rise (captured).
3) an enemy taps your helm with their weapon (slain).