Starting an Ancients Combat Society: Part 2

[T. Finkas]

I hope you remember the earlier thread where I suggested a campaign to inspire interest in the ancient period amongst the SCA membership. I am ready to take this to the next step by starting a website and discussion forum. Please remember that at this stage all I am suggesting is opening a discussion, no action any further than that!

I am now asking you folks for feedback or ideas as to what the website/forum might be named. This name would also extend to any society or organization that forms, so take that issue into account.

As of now the following are available as dot-coms (or dot-orgs):

ironandbronze.com
shieldandspear.com
ancientage.com
ancientsoldiers.com
ancientlives.com
warriorsofbronze.com

What do you think? Have you got a better or more "catchy" name suggestion? Although humour and sarcasm is fun, I hope some earnest suggestions will also be made.

Thanks,
Tim

[Ceddie]

My money is on
ageofironandbronze.com

If you can get it.

[Animal]

Whatever you end up calling it, let me know when it's up and running. My email is in the profile.

[Jakob Hilditonn]

Deffinitly interested, contact info in the profile.

I live out in the middle of nowhere in SoCal so I don't know how physically supportive I can be, attendance and such. Afew ideas....

-Organizing the Early Period folks into cross kindom internet "guilds" based on their area and era of interest would be a good start.

-Links to already existing units that fall out side the "desired" era in the SCA so folks can seek local support. Points of contact in each kindom/ memberlist.

-Pictures of some of the better early period kits that you can find and descriptions of how they were made, where they got the inspiration.

-Schedule gatherings at larger events even if its just for a beer or two.

Start small, dream big.

[Uilleag]

Sounds like a great idea, to me as well. My contact info is in the profile. I have to agree something funny is probably NOT a good idea....ageofironandbronze, or some such, works for me...

How early are we looking at and how late are we willing to go, in time periods? Cultures also, what cultures are we looking at? Or so we want to go with the "big umbrella" if you can document it, we'll discuss it idea? Either way works for me....just not interested in fantasy, (at least in my re-inactment mode! LOL)

[T. Finkas]

I think we start it up as discussion and see where it leads.

I don't want to set any ground rules yet. I'd rather see the folks that are interested in joining/participating play a part in putting this all together and help decide the format of the group.

To start the ball rolling, creating an online forum seems ideal. Just a little investment of money and time on my part to set it up...no big deal (domain name, home page with links to a free Proboards BB). If it something "real" comes of it, cool. If not, it will just fade away.

I see the first "group" events as happening at major SCA wars. To start with, we have a meeting/party/get-together and everybody wears their soft kit and/or armour for the day(or as simple as Cingetorix suggests just get together for a chat and a few beers). Perhaps later we organize some "pas" tourneys based on ancient combat styles (i.e. Roman gladitorial, or spear & sheild duel ala Homer's Illiad).

I can imagine the scope of the group perhaps being focused on cultures that would have actually interacted (i.e. the cultures situated around the Mediterranian and Northern Africa). As for time period, perhaps 1500BC to 200AD?

Of course, this would all be up for discussion!

Cheers,
Tim

[T. Finkas]

...I have to agree something funny is probably NOT a good idea...

My point was that there are a lot of witty folks here on the Archive and I know I will get a few responses that are just for fun...not serious suggestions. So let the jokes fly if you will, but let's also have some serious ideas.

...that's what I was getting at

[sarnac]

I like ancientage.com....

is shows some depth, and right off the bat, focuses on more than just fighting.


whatever you decide.... drop me a line when you start it

[Hibernicus]

Avete all y'all

Here's a quick rundown..... Details to follow!

Ancient Society for Creative Anachronisms

The ASCA was recently incorporated..

President Barry Jacobsen... "Gaius Sertorius Balin"

The ASCA website is being built as I write.

The focus is on things 1st C AD and earlier.. Greece and Rome for starters

Heavy Combat System roughly duplicates SCA (why reinvent a wheel that works!)

It will also include an Historically Armored Combat System that uses a "felt" weapon and does not require extensive non-Period armor or body protection.

Chapters are currently forming in Southern California (4), Northern California (2), and Idaho (1).

The first massed warbands event will be Estrella War 2006

The ASCA is full bore going into Greek armor and equipment production. Helmets (3 styles), muscled cuirass (several sizes), linothorax (several sizes), Greek shields will be available.

The ASCA is also interviewing marathon runners to run in armor.. the way it should be done! A TV campaign is also being planned

That is all.. for now!

Hibernicus

[Hibernicus]

ASCA

I didn't intend to seem like toes were being trodden upon. This idea, the ASCA, was formulated about 15 months ago. Lawyers consulted, the SCA contacted with appropriate legal docs and agreements duly signed and notarized regarding the phrase "ASCA".

The Articles of Incorporation were submitted about a year ago.

There's even an endowment.

Legal docs regarding chapter formation are being written

The combat rules system is being written.

I'll post the approproiate contact info ASAP for any and all who are interested!

Hibernicus

[T. Finkas]

Sean,

That all sounds very exciting! Please keep us informed here on the AA. I will want info on starting a chapter here in PA, when it is available.

Cheers,
Tim

BTW:
Is this affiliated with the SCA or a distinct and separate organization?

[Hibernicus]

Information posted out to ALL as soon as things are ready for chapter formation!

ASCA is NOT affiliated with the SCA.

Hibernicus

[Gabriel Morgan]

Partial to warriorsofbronze.com or shieldandspear.com, m'self, but whatever it is called, this misplaced Athenian Hoplite will be there with bells on.

[Uilleag]

I'm a 9th cen Irishman myself but could convert to something more appropriate if and when a branch opens near Maryland. Until then, I would love to be on the list/group that forms.....

[Animal]

yah, if something opens up near maryland let me know. i could get into some Scythian stuff big time!

[Robert P. Norwalt]

Hurry. The Picts need me.

[T. Finkas]

Information posted out to ALL as soon as things are ready for chapter formation!

ASCA is NOT affiliated with the SCA.

Hibernicus

Not affiliated with the SCA? Hmmm...

Then why the blatant co-opting of the SCA's name? Forgive me if I opine that such a decision seems like a substantially bad move---the kind of wrong choice that an organization will regret all of its days (however long or short that might be). If that new group (ASCA) wants to stand alone from the SCA then perhaps it should select a name that enables it to do so.

Sean, if you are influential in this ASCA (and I suspect you are knowing what a dynamic individual you are)...PLEASE have them reconsider that name! It seems destined to cause confusion and animosity, neither of which a budding organization can afford to suffer.

-------------------

The concept I am promoting is for an ancients group is to work WITHIN the SCA. The SCA already exists and draws thousands of participants to its events. The structure & bureaucracy has already been established. And the interest amongst the membership clearly exists, at least on some small level. I think the trick is to organize and inspire these folks a bit.

While the idea of a separate organization certainly has substantial merit, I am going to have to chew on the idea a bit before I decide to abandon the direction I am currently suggesting.

Cheers,
Tim

I just went back and reviewed your original reply. You mention that "The first massed warbands event will be Estrella War 2006". If the ASCA is not affiliated with the SCA, then how will this be accomplished? I am getting confused!

[T. Finkas]

Whoever mentioned that the name should have a broader scope than just warfare has got a good point. Along those lines, ancientliving.com or .org are currently available.

[Hibernicus]

Tim, thank you for your concerns. Many many hours of discussion preceded decisions regarding the name, lawyers consulted et al. The SCA has no issues with the name.

BTW, many other organizations use the term "SCA"

The only "affiliation" is unofficial. The ASCA is not a branch or division of the SCA. The founders of the ASCA, the current members, the current chapters are all participants within the SCA.

We envision that many participants of the ASCA will also participate within the SCA .

Hibernicus / Sheridan / Sean

[tessathehuntress]

I'm interested in this as well. My first choice for a persona (in the SCA) was too early period, IMO. So, I moved it back by 2 centuries.

Tim and I live in the same city, so is that enough for a chapter ? LOL..

Tim, what about "Ancient Lives" or something like that? There used to be a publication, in Meridies, I believe called "Early Period". It covered those personas that were very early period.. or before the medieval period in some peoples opinion It had great articles, from how to make early period shoes, quoting where and when they would have been used, to other articles of clothing.. and other everyday stuff. I'm pretty certain I still have those newsletters, because they had such helpful information.

Let me know if you want me to dig them out. I don't know when it started, but I believe it was around for at least a couple of years, before I heard of it. At the time, I was one of only 4 or 5 pre-600's personas in Atlantia (AFAIK and I traveled a lot). I believe the newsletter just gradually faded out, but it's existence shows that there interest out there.

Perhaps some of the Meridians out there could give us more information on this?

FWIW, I think it would be nice to see people with similar personas, camp together. Like the Viking camp (yes and the other examples at Pennsic). Rather than sticking out from the later period pavillions, camping together I think would look cool.

I'm more of an inclusive than exclusive person, but there are times that the broadness of the SCA is more troublesome than not. I'm all for having specific areas designated for x.. time period, having a specific event with a "theme" of a specific time and place, perhaps even specific battles. I"m not interested in "recreating" that specific battle.. down to who would die or not. But I believe it would be interesting to have the sides have appropriate weapons (armor if possible).. and approx. amount of effectiveness (the weapons).

I think it would encourage people to work on a specific time and persona.. or several It would make it easier to picture ourselves back in that time, if we didn't have a 2 century Roman next to a 14 century Englishman.

I wouldn't want to tell people they couldn't do their persona, that's not my point. My point is often, there are enough people with interest in x.. time or period, that I think we could do more with it, under the SCA umbrella.

I've rambled enough. I would like to see some early period groups out there. In my browsing I've run across a couple on the web, they are several here in the USA, but they aren't very big. It looks like several of them also tend to attend some SCA events. just FYI..

Thanks,

Tessa the Huntress
tessathehuntress@earthlink.net

[T. Finkas]

Sean/Hibernicus,

Thanks for the added info regarding the ASCA name. I can certainly see an ADVANTAGE to that name if the activities and members of both groups are somehow related. If the ASCA has put all that time and trouble into their efforts of fotmation thus far, it makes sence that the name issue MUST have already been well considered.

-----------

Tess,

It's nice to hear about your like interest. Yes, let's keep discussing this idea---whether with the SCA, the ASCA or whatever. I think a forum is still a viable idea.

-----------

Cheers,
Tim

[Lucian Ro]

My money's on ancientage.com definitely.

[Hibernicus]

Greets

There'll be a meet and greet regarding the ASCA at GWW

Details to follow under a new header.

Hibernicus

[Alcyoneus]

ASCA

A. I didn't intend to seem like toes were being trodden upon. This idea, the ASCA, was formulated about 15 months ago. Lawyers consulted, the SCA contacted with appropriate legal docs and agreements duly signed and notarized regarding the phrase "ASCA".

The Articles of Incorporation were submitted about a year ago.

There's even an endowment.

Legal docs regarding chapter formation are being written

The combat rules system is being written.

B. Heavy Combat System roughly duplicates SCA (why reinvent a wheel that works!)

It will also include an Historically Armored Combat System that uses a "felt" weapon and does not require extensive non-Period armor or body protection.

C.The first massed warbands event will be Estrella War 2006

I'll post the approproiate contact info ASAP for any and all who are interested!

D. The ASCA is full bore going into Greek armor and equipment production. Helmets (3 styles), muscled cuirass (several sizes), linothorax (several sizes), Greek shields will be available.

Hibernicus

A. Incorporated as what? 501C3 educational org like the SCA?

B. I agree, why reinvent the wheel, but any combat system that is going to take place at an SCA event is required to follow SCA rules. If you use other than SCA armor requirements, I don't think you can do it at SCA events. There has to be an approved rule system in place with the kingdom marshallate, or it can't happen (like fencing in Calontir).

C. If it happens at Estrella, it is SCA affiliated.

D. What is the purpose (see A), educational, or sales?

I'm not opposed to early period, I've discussed with Studbuckle the appeal of Scythian everything (love it, care to contribute to my scabbard leather or hankerchief collection? ), but I'm just a little confused as to what you are trying to do.

[Gabriel Morgan]

I suspect he is trying to create an organization which 'dovetails' onto the SCA, much like the Tuchux or Markland.

Simultaneous membership would be encouraged. Members would visit SCA events on their own or organized in household-fashion, camping together and the like. Combat while at SCA events would be by SCA rules. Combat at AASCA events would be by AASCA rules.

Plenty of groups do this. I think it is a workable model, though I'd also like Tim to set up his forum.

[T. Finkas]

...I think it is a workable model, though I'd also like Tim to set up his forum.

I agree, Gabriel.

Discussion of the subject will be fun, and who knows where it will lead? Maybe many of the participants end up joining and supporting this new ASCA; perhaps others form a "Pas" group or household within the SCA; or folks might decide they want their own club.

I am still making plans to launch a forum.

Tim

[Hibernicus]

A. Incorporated as what? 501C3

Yes

C. If it happens at Estrella, it is SCA affiliated.

No legal affiliation.... cultural or social only.

D. What is the purpose (see A), educational, or sales?

EDU

Hibernicus

[Animal]

So what's going on with this? Anyone else have info in Scythian stuff they'd be willing to share, my email is in the profile .
Thanks

[FrauHirsch]

> Ancient Society for Creative Anachronisms

I'm surprised you didn't choose a more professional sounding name. The "Creative Anachronisms" term is so confusing to the public.

>Heavy Combat System roughly duplicates SCA (why reinvent a wheel that works!)

I'm surprised you guys aren't going with one of the many rebated steel systems that also work just fine, but look and play with a lot more realism... especially for educational purposes.

-J

[Animal]

But you dont get to HIT people that way.

[Destichado]

In early period armour, that's true.

We can't go around smiting legs with blunt steel (which does MORE than it's share of damage on soft targets!) when our playmates are in a reasonably correct greek or roman harness. Of all the armour in the ancient world, only a few kinds of roman gladiators, legionares with manica, and homeric greeks in Dendra-esque harness could ever play by live steel rules with any degree of historical accuracy.

I've been thinking of going Greek for a while now, and I just can't decide if the Dendra harness with all its protection is cool enough to compete with a Corinthian rig.

[Gabriel Morgan]

I've been thinking of going Greek for a while now, and I just can't decide if the Dendra harness with all its protection is cool enough to compete with a Corinthian rig.

I feel your pain. I'm still trying to puzzle out a way to add arm protection to my Cortinthian kit without totally mucking up the aesthetic. Muscled greaves with an attched knee cop don't look too out of place, especially when you paint the cop black and plate the greave in bronze or brass, but given the Greeks' eschewment of clothing on their arms or their legs... sigh.

[T. Finkas]

Gabriel,

An interesting twist on your dilemma is to go Scythian. There are portrayals of Scythians in full Greek Hoplite kit but the Scythian long sleeved tunic and long legged trousers worn underneath. Such would allow for hidden armor.

There ARE examples of Greek arm harness that is not the manica type. There is an example of what might be loosely termed a vambrace and a rerebrace. Connolly depicts these in Greece and Rome at War. Sadly, there is no associated elbow protection I have seen depicted, nor any shoulder cap/pauldron.

Tim

[Grace Dudley]

It's sort of annoying to be considered too early period for the SCA and now too late period for the ASCA.

Any chance of pegging the end date to the fall of the Roman Empire?

Grainne
5th C. Dal Riadan

[Sasha_Khan]

It's sort of annoying to be considered too early period for the SCA and now too late period for the ASCA.

Any chance of pegging the end date to the fall of the Roman Empire?

Grainne
5th C. Dal Riadan

Sorry, but 1453 and 1917 aren't late enough for you?