Against all armoriers? No
About a particul;ar one? No again.
Part of this could have gone in the other thead operating, but part is quite different. I start with that
There is a lot of talk/urging/ consideration/whatever of filing criminal charges against a bad faith armorer. I know there are laws that are punishable in commerce, if violated (fraud/obtaining money by false pretense/etc.)
How _Many_ criminal charges have you actually heard solid evidence of, where a person making armor for people's hobbies has actually made an initial appearance on a felony charge for it? Gone to trial? Been found guilty, and sentenced?
If everyone on this Archive combined can provide me with more than one documentable instance of a person pleading out or having been found guilty of such a charge, I will be very surprised. Why?
District attorneys that I am familiar with have more serous cases to consider. Serious, as in..well, the guy bled on the floor and walls, but was only treated and released at the hospital..how much time do I spend working this? How about __________, who just got picked up for drunk driving and pot possession? He didn't hurt anyone this time either, but it's his seventh such offense in 18 years..sooner or later he's going to kill someone." Even bouncing a check or forging someone's name is likely to catch more attention than Mr Smith paying a guy in another state over a grand for some medieval do-hickey, in the belief the guy would make it within an agreed time-frame, and ship it to him. Even less likely to score high on someone's list is that $200 set of gauntlets, or $85 buckler... $150 in straps?
I could easily be way off in the federal level, it's not an area I work.But I am just really sceptical about the ability to get criminal charges filed and for them to stick on something most people don't ever buy that will be used for a hobby.
That D-A also has outright robberies (with gun/knife/etc) the druggie who cleaned out the freezer of the elderly lady, the woman whose been hammered by her man again, and a host of other crimes demanding their attention.
____________________________________
Part Two
The one thing I haven't read directly referenced in the other thread about
bad armourers is _self discipline_. I have r\trouble with it myself in many areas. I would have to fight it on a daily basis to be an armourer. I have to fight it every day in my own life, and sometimes I fail.
Your succcessful armourers, full or part-time, will have the self-discipline to keep their businesses going the right way...and even then catastrophic things can happen that can affect them, unless a tremendours amount of forethought and preparation have been put in for emergency contingenies in advance.
____________________________________
Rant Off,
Regards,
Valstarr
Bad Armourers-My Rant
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Valstarr Hawkwind
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Bad Armourers-My Rant
Right is Not Reckoned by Numbers
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Gabriel Morgan
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Mail fraud, which is what much of the online complaints would end up be filed under, is a federal crime.
That's it. That's all. It's a crime. Let that sink in a minute, please.
I am very, very glad that Gundo came forward with an offer to repay our (my wife and I's) money. It is the best thing for both of us. But if he hadn't, I would have done what I said without hesitation. It isn't the victim's place to decide what deserves to be pursued, what the DA and the FTC should or should not be spending their time on. It is the defrauded party's job to contact the local DA, contact the FTC, contact a civil lawyer, and let the legal system deal with the matter.
But to imply that somehow we shouldn't pursue justice in these instances is absurd, and, quite frankly, immoral. This isn't about some 'strange medieval organization'. It is about businessmen acting professionally, and the law, and fraud, and theft - sometimes of 50 bucks, sometimes of thousands. When you are the victim of a crime, you do something about it.
That's the way I was raised, at least.
That's it. That's all. It's a crime. Let that sink in a minute, please.
I am very, very glad that Gundo came forward with an offer to repay our (my wife and I's) money. It is the best thing for both of us. But if he hadn't, I would have done what I said without hesitation. It isn't the victim's place to decide what deserves to be pursued, what the DA and the FTC should or should not be spending their time on. It is the defrauded party's job to contact the local DA, contact the FTC, contact a civil lawyer, and let the legal system deal with the matter.
But to imply that somehow we shouldn't pursue justice in these instances is absurd, and, quite frankly, immoral. This isn't about some 'strange medieval organization'. It is about businessmen acting professionally, and the law, and fraud, and theft - sometimes of 50 bucks, sometimes of thousands. When you are the victim of a crime, you do something about it.
That's the way I was raised, at least.
~ Gabriel
Yea that's about it....
Being intentional or life things I do not know.
I think it is the deposit, then paying in full with an email promise. That is the culprit.
If an armour post a pic of said completed work and indicated; send rest of the money, ready to ship. And it is not in fact ready; herein lies the fraud.
I will not ask for payment until the helm is completed and approved by the client via pics and dimensions. I also offer a money back guarantee if you aren't satisfied.
Now if I cut my fingers off or get in a bad car crash the offer is void.
At least you did not send any money.
See what I mean? Faith in the client and armourer.
My 2 cents on the recurring topic.
Hal
Being intentional or life things I do not know.
I think it is the deposit, then paying in full with an email promise. That is the culprit.
If an armour post a pic of said completed work and indicated; send rest of the money, ready to ship. And it is not in fact ready; herein lies the fraud.
I will not ask for payment until the helm is completed and approved by the client via pics and dimensions. I also offer a money back guarantee if you aren't satisfied.
Now if I cut my fingers off or get in a bad car crash the offer is void.
At least you did not send any money.
See what I mean? Faith in the client and armourer.
My 2 cents on the recurring topic.
Hal
Happy Metal Pounding
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Willing Pell
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He only offered to pay after the threat of criminal action. You haven't seen money yet, have you. If he had planned to pay you back he would have answered your emails. My bet is he's buying time to move and disapear before your legal action could catch up to him. If it were me, I'd persue legal action and get a payment schedule set down by the courts, then it's down it paper rather than a vague promise of payment. You've been taken once already.
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Captain Jamie
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Valstarr- You are likely right that a DA doesn't give a high priority to these concerns. However there are both criminal and civil law aspects to this. It is quite possible to sue in small claims courts, or in district court over the civil matters and this does not involve the DA. Breach of contract, failure of a product for it's intended use, etc. are civil matters and only require that you have the gumption to not be a victim. See the threads on Armourworks to see how a group of people are cooperating to reach a satisfactory arrangement with an armourer.
Captain Jamie
As for your question on criminal charges being succesfully filed I can't think of any. However I have heard of one chap that was so unsuccesful at being an armourer that he apparently has a court injunction against him ever taking money for metal again. Seems that three bankruptcies was enough.
Captain Jamie
As for your question on criminal charges being succesfully filed I can't think of any. However I have heard of one chap that was so unsuccesful at being an armourer that he apparently has a court injunction against him ever taking money for metal again. Seems that three bankruptcies was enough.
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morristh
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Having just begun to enter the arena of custom fit (I always bought things off the rack 
), and considered anyone on AA a legit operation, I suppose its too much to ask all the guys and gals who make armor and the dandy items to go with them to make kind of an oath (at least to themselves) to be HONEST. Heck man, I know how it is to get in a tight spot, been there several times. It sucks when you worry about the roof over your head and where the next meals coming from. Im not picking on anyone person. I am just saying, if you get in a jam SAY so. Most of us understand and are patient. Franks right from the other thread. If you cant operate as a MAN (WOMAN) 
ie treat all fairly and mean what you say, GET OUT of the business.
Ah the vented spleen. That said anyone doing riveted aluminum?
TIM
), and considered anyone on AA a legit operation, I suppose its too much to ask all the guys and gals who make armor and the dandy items to go with them to make kind of an oath (at least to themselves) to be HONEST. Heck man, I know how it is to get in a tight spot, been there several times. It sucks when you worry about the roof over your head and where the next meals coming from. Im not picking on anyone person. I am just saying, if you get in a jam SAY so. Most of us understand and are patient. Franks right from the other thread. If you cant operate as a MAN (WOMAN) ie treat all fairly and mean what you say, GET OUT of the business.
Ah the vented spleen. That said anyone doing riveted aluminum?
TIM
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Valstarr Hawkwind
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Immoral?
I post about the realities of what types of crimes are likely to gather the most attention and this is part of your response? I did not even know Gundo had offered to repay you until your post in this thread.
And, let me put a disclaimer in: my conversations have not been with prosecutors about these matters, but rather see what types of crimes happen to people, based on my years of experience as a newsman.
Is being defrauded over armour a real crime? Yes, indeed. Perhaps you will find prosecutors willing to file felony charges. As a perhaps useful aside, I think another avenue someone pursuing such a grievance might try is your state attorney general's office. They often have a anti-fraud unit, and I've seen some cases pursued by the one in Oklahoma that were made the subject of a press release that didn't sound like a huge personal-injury crime to me, in the scheme of things.
My point is that I have probably seen years of let's sue/charge them posts, and have yet to hear of a record of felony conviction on one.
Skeptical, yes. Immoral I take as a pesonal insult.
Valstarr
I post about the realities of what types of crimes are likely to gather the most attention and this is part of your response? I did not even know Gundo had offered to repay you until your post in this thread.
And, let me put a disclaimer in: my conversations have not been with prosecutors about these matters, but rather see what types of crimes happen to people, based on my years of experience as a newsman.
Is being defrauded over armour a real crime? Yes, indeed. Perhaps you will find prosecutors willing to file felony charges. As a perhaps useful aside, I think another avenue someone pursuing such a grievance might try is your state attorney general's office. They often have a anti-fraud unit, and I've seen some cases pursued by the one in Oklahoma that were made the subject of a press release that didn't sound like a huge personal-injury crime to me, in the scheme of things.
My point is that I have probably seen years of let's sue/charge them posts, and have yet to hear of a record of felony conviction on one.
Skeptical, yes. Immoral I take as a pesonal insult.
Valstarr
Right is Not Reckoned by Numbers
Valstarr,
I think I see your point. Consider that people use this board to vent and rant when they feel they have been wronged. They will claim to pursue legal action, some have even promised and suggested that people send "welcoming parties" to the homes of wayward vendors. This doesn't mean that they have any intent to do the person harm, or send them to jail. Most, I would guess, are simply hoping that the other party (or someone that knows them) will read the post(s) showing that they are understandably stressed over losing hard-earned money, and respond like a decent human-being, with either the product or the cash.
On the priority of cases, I suppose it depends where you live. Where I live, a murder case doesn't take priority over a fraud case (in the few instances that they actually see a courtroom), because different departments under the Attorney General (DA to most people) are responsible for different parts of the law. However unlikely it may be in your area to get a prosecutor to pay attention to your case, people should still do what they can to get their money back.
I think I see your point. Consider that people use this board to vent and rant when they feel they have been wronged. They will claim to pursue legal action, some have even promised and suggested that people send "welcoming parties" to the homes of wayward vendors. This doesn't mean that they have any intent to do the person harm, or send them to jail. Most, I would guess, are simply hoping that the other party (or someone that knows them) will read the post(s) showing that they are understandably stressed over losing hard-earned money, and respond like a decent human-being, with either the product or the cash.
On the priority of cases, I suppose it depends where you live. Where I live, a murder case doesn't take priority over a fraud case (in the few instances that they actually see a courtroom), because different departments under the Attorney General (DA to most people) are responsible for different parts of the law. However unlikely it may be in your area to get a prosecutor to pay attention to your case, people should still do what they can to get their money back.
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Valstarr Hawkwind
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I think a number of you in here are correct on many things. As to the 'letting off steam' I can see the need for that as well. I have had some unpleasant dealings with an armourer or two, but nothing to the financial scope some of the other archivers have.
I probably shouldn't have started my own 'rant' on this subject to begin with--but I feel my points are valid. I may not have realized many of the posts were just blowing off steam, rather than to gear up for a legal fight over armor fraud.
I have a tendency to be too literal...thats _Literal_ NOT _Liberal_ !!
Valstarr
I probably shouldn't have started my own 'rant' on this subject to begin with--but I feel my points are valid. I may not have realized many of the posts were just blowing off steam, rather than to gear up for a legal fight over armor fraud.
I have a tendency to be too literal...thats _Literal_ NOT _Liberal_ !!
Valstarr
Right is Not Reckoned by Numbers
Some of the posts are, in fact, gearing up for a legal fight.
And yes, it would be unlikely for the DA to press criminal charges over small thefts or mail fraud. But larger thefts could most certainly be prosecuted, no matter what the product.
I was on a jury once for a criminal trial where a porn merchant failed to deliver a large set of paid-for videos. Just because the product is for an obscure hobby or a product that most people would never use doesn't mean that the merchant can avoid prosecution for illegal behaviour.
And yes, it is illegal to accept money for any product by mail without a delivery date agreed upon by both merchant and customer. If an explicit delivery date is not given, a date of thirty days is legally assumed. It is also illegal to extend that date without the customer's permission. If any delivery date is missed, the merchant *MUST* give a 100% refund, in full.
I don't know of any cases yet where an armourer has had a felony stick, but I know of several armourers who *should* have. Civil suits are much more likely to succeed. And several of the posts here have been attempts to gather information for class action civil suits.
And yes, it would be unlikely for the DA to press criminal charges over small thefts or mail fraud. But larger thefts could most certainly be prosecuted, no matter what the product.
I was on a jury once for a criminal trial where a porn merchant failed to deliver a large set of paid-for videos. Just because the product is for an obscure hobby or a product that most people would never use doesn't mean that the merchant can avoid prosecution for illegal behaviour.
And yes, it is illegal to accept money for any product by mail without a delivery date agreed upon by both merchant and customer. If an explicit delivery date is not given, a date of thirty days is legally assumed. It is also illegal to extend that date without the customer's permission. If any delivery date is missed, the merchant *MUST* give a 100% refund, in full.
I don't know of any cases yet where an armourer has had a felony stick, but I know of several armourers who *should* have. Civil suits are much more likely to succeed. And several of the posts here have been attempts to gather information for class action civil suits.
If you ever get so low that you don't know which way to go,
Come on and take a walk in my shoes...
I don't worry about a thing, I've got the world on a string.
Cus I've got the cure for all of my blues...
Come on and take a walk in my shoes...
I don't worry about a thing, I've got the world on a string.
Cus I've got the cure for all of my blues...
The beauty of a charges being filed is even if the case never sees the inside of a courtroom. said person will now have a record of defruading. Which will make it very hard to try it again. Ok granted it dos not help the first guy out, but makes it hard for the same person to dupe people over and over again.
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Christophe de Frisselle
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If you've been ripped off by anyone, contact your local police dept. with all the details and documentation plus items recieved. Also, If you know that the person has defrauded others, mention that with as much detail as you can. Assuming you have the other party's address, try to contact their local law enforcement about the issue you have with them. If there was anything send through the U.S Postal Service, you can file a complain with them here. If the transaction was across state lines, you may also wish to file a complaint with the Fedral Trade Commision. You can do that here. Another thing is contacting the State Attorney General's Office of the person's state of residence. If you've used a payment service like Paypal, Western Union, a Credit Card, etc. try contacting them. YMMV.
Basically, explore all avenues of complaint. It will increase you chance of action on you complaint. You might not get any or all of you money back, but the other party will probably be penalized or at least stopped in further efforts to defraud.
Almost forgot... If you know of any other that have been defrauded by the same individual or company, contact them and encourage them to take action. More reported instances of fraud will also increase a chance of action on you complaint.
Basically, explore all avenues of complaint. It will increase you chance of action on you complaint. You might not get any or all of you money back, but the other party will probably be penalized or at least stopped in further efforts to defraud.
Almost forgot... If you know of any other that have been defrauded by the same individual or company, contact them and encourage them to take action. More reported instances of fraud will also increase a chance of action on you complaint.
"Do, or do not. There is no 'try.'" - Master Yoda
"You don't become great by trying to become great. You become great by wanting to do something, and doing it so hard that you become great in the process." - Zombie Marie Curie, xkcd
"You don't become great by trying to become great. You become great by wanting to do something, and doing it so hard that you become great in the process." - Zombie Marie Curie, xkcd
I think some of you guys are making an assumption about our legal system that is just not accurate; i.e, that a DA has a choice about what crimes he will and will not persue. Granted, on his own, a District Attorney is not going to go after small-time petty crime. There are a few things which by law the state has to investigate and make a case about, such as felonies and capital crimes. But once someone files a complaint, the legal system has to follow through. The do not have to do a damn thing if you never file one, but once you do....
They may be slow about it, but they have to take some action on your complaint. They do not have a choice. Things such as mail fraud leave a very large paper trail...not always by the criminal, but by the court system itself. Mail fraud is a federal crime and those takes precedence over local ordinances. Federal crimes do not get ignored as easily as violations of state or local statutes. The federal gov't does not allow them to be. And judges have less leeway in their sentencing of violators of federal statues. The penalties are often mandated by law.
And when we say "the DA" what we really mean is the DA's office....which in fact has several people working there (legal clerks, stenographers, researchers) and not just the one guy. In cases of mail fraud, it is usually so cut and dried that a state prosecutor rarely needs to even be there. Due to the long-distance nature of these cases, most decisions are rendered in absentia of both claimant and defendant.
The adjudicator may award damages based soley on sworn depositions and photocopied reciepts. In truth usually the threat of prosecution is enough to resove the matter, so yes, it is rare for a defendant to actually stand trial for the crime of mail fraud. Because such cases do not often get that far. But that is not to say that nothing was done. Most are simply resolved before they reach that point.
But it is like anything else...when dealing with the goverment, you have to keep on top of their asses to get anyhting done. Keep copies of everything, because the odds are your paperwork will be "lost" or "misplaced" several times. Gov't workers don't want to do anymore for you than they have to. And the easiet way to avoid doing their jobs is to file your sh*t in the nearest wastebasket.
They may be slow about it, but they have to take some action on your complaint. They do not have a choice. Things such as mail fraud leave a very large paper trail...not always by the criminal, but by the court system itself. Mail fraud is a federal crime and those takes precedence over local ordinances. Federal crimes do not get ignored as easily as violations of state or local statutes. The federal gov't does not allow them to be. And judges have less leeway in their sentencing of violators of federal statues. The penalties are often mandated by law.
And when we say "the DA" what we really mean is the DA's office....which in fact has several people working there (legal clerks, stenographers, researchers) and not just the one guy. In cases of mail fraud, it is usually so cut and dried that a state prosecutor rarely needs to even be there. Due to the long-distance nature of these cases, most decisions are rendered in absentia of both claimant and defendant.
The adjudicator may award damages based soley on sworn depositions and photocopied reciepts. In truth usually the threat of prosecution is enough to resove the matter, so yes, it is rare for a defendant to actually stand trial for the crime of mail fraud. Because such cases do not often get that far. But that is not to say that nothing was done. Most are simply resolved before they reach that point.
But it is like anything else...when dealing with the goverment, you have to keep on top of their asses to get anyhting done. Keep copies of everything, because the odds are your paperwork will be "lost" or "misplaced" several times. Gov't workers don't want to do anymore for you than they have to. And the easiet way to avoid doing their jobs is to file your sh*t in the nearest wastebasket.
**ABADDON**
The Adversary
Better to have a worthy adversary than an uncertain friend.
The Adversary
Better to have a worthy adversary than an uncertain friend.
