Stepping back a bit - Greek armour.

[Kenwrec Wulfe]

I am wondering if there are ANY examples of the Greeks having used iron to form a helm. Everything I have been able to find through research has stated bronze, which is what I suspected, however, I have not been to the library here in Woodstock yet.

Anyone here offer any assistance? It would be most appreciated!!
Thanks!

[Tom Knighton]

When you say Greek, I assume you are talking about the Ancient Greek world. In that case, I don't think you'll find any though I could be wrong. It was called the Bronze Age for a reason

Seriously, I don't honestly know why they didn't use iron, but assume it was either a lack of knowledge about the material, lack of technology to manufacture it, or they just didn't like it (not putting much stock in that last one though ).

I'd love to know that I'm wrong on this though, it would be pretty cool to see it!

Tom

[Saverio]

Well, during the Classical period they certainly had iron (for spears, swords, etc.) However, the wrought iron they produced didn't work under the hammer nearly as well as bronze did. I've never seen a mention of iron helmets from this period.

If you haven't already seen it take a look at Matthew Amt's site.
http://www.larp.com/hoplite/

[Josh W]

Well, we know that Philip of Macedonia, father of Alexander the Great, had an iron cuirass. I don't see why iron helmets are necessarily out of the question.

[Saverio]

Good point, Josh.

I'm not saying they're out of the question, only that I've never heard of them. Bronze helmets would have been the norm (especially with deeply raised Corinthian helmets).

[Matthew Amt]

As far as I know, bronze is the way to go. The Bronze Age ends (in the Aegean) around 1200 or 1100 BC, then you get the Archaic period, then the Classical era starts (I think) around 600 BC. So yeah, we're well into the Iron Age.

BUT bronze is still the metal of choice for helmets and metal armor. Not necessarily because of workability, it could just be the fashion. It worked just fine, so no reason to change, eh?

The iron cuirass from Vergina dates from the Hellenistic period, after the Classical. There may be hints of a few iron helmets starting to show up around then, but all the surviving ones I've seen are still bronze.

Heck, the Romans kept making bronze and brass helmets right through the third century AD, 300 years after iron helmets had become popular.

But if you're thinking of the "classic" Greek hoplites of the Late Archaic and Classical eras, with their Corinthian and Illyrian helmets, bronze is it.

Thanks for the plug, Saverio!

Khairete,

Matthew

[Kenwrec Wulfe]

Thank you for the input! That is all I was ever able to find as well, and the library proved to further it.

The reason I am asking is that I have been asked to commision a Corinthian style helm for SCA use. I would like to be as accurate as I can, but bronze just wouldnt cut it. unless I made it really heavy and thick. So, I was hoping that maybe someone had a reference to even a single example of on in iron....

Se la vi. I will just go into further discussions with them.

Thanks!

[rob(in)]

my spare Corinthian is one by Brand Lancaster that the previous owner had brass plated. it looks beautiful and much like a bronze helmet.

the only argument i've heard is that some plate thiers with copper because they feel 'period' bronze was more red in color because you were dealing with a strictly tin/copper alloy instead of the modern phosphor-bronze we are used to...

anyway, it looks great. last quote i got for the plating was around $100.

[Patrick Thaden]

not for sure, I'll check at the shop tomorrow, but I recall seeing what I thought was a two piece constructed iron helmet in the british museum, it was of a corinthian style I believe the top being flush riveted to the sides. I'll dig up the pic I took and post it tomorrow if I am remembering correctly.

[rob(in)]

the Hearst Museum has a bronze one that is two halves rivetted down the center... pic in the Oprey Warrior 'Greek Hoplite'.

[Amalric Unomen]

Just out of curiosity, is it possible that bronze helmets were more likely to survive?

[Dan Howard]

Of course bronze is more likely to survive. But if you are going to use that logic to argue for the existence of Greek iron helmets then one could say that Aztecs or even the neanderthals wore iron helmets. We just haven't found any.

[white mountain armoury]

Of course bronze is more likely to survive. But if you are going to use that logic to argue for the existence of Greek iron helmets then one could say that Aztecs or even the neanderthals wore iron helmets. We just haven't found any.

You sure do come across like a tool Dan, and im not sure i see him using that question as a point of argument, sounds more like a simple question of iron vs bronze to me.

[Gabriel Morgan]

I do remember reading of a "linothorax" that was made of iron and not linen, but it may be the Hellenistic one Matthew is mentioning.

I myself was in the same boat, man. I decided to pick up a mild steel Corinthian and have it plated in brass. I've seen one other helm where that was done, and it looked wonderful.

My two drachmas.

[Uilleag]

I do remember reading of a "linothorax" that was made of iron and not linen, but it may be the Hellenistic one Matthew is mentioning.

I myself was in the same boat, man. I decided to pick up a mild steel Corinthian and have it plated in brass. I've seen one other helm where that was done, and it looked wonderful.

My two drachmas.

Gabriel,

Could you post that source? I am currently working on a commission for a linothorax made in leather, which seems more likely to me than one made entirely out of iron. First the iron would be godawful heavy, and smelting iron to work a piece that large would be a major undertaking for bce technology, I would think.

Pre-christian era is a bit early for my tastes and quite frankly I'm a little too lazy to have researched it all that well, but with more and more commissions coming in for earlier period items, I'm finding it interesting.

[Matthew Amt]

Avete!

Here's a photo of Philip's iron cuirass:

http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/Helle ... 2731a.html

It is described in Peter Connolly's books as well as in the Osprey Greek Hoplites book, I believe. Not sure if there is much in the way of hard measurements anywhere, but I'd be surprised if it weighed much more than 12 puonds. No reason it has to be heavy, since iron can be hammered into sheets as thin as you like. The plates aren't very large, but if the billets weren't big enough it was simple enough to forge-weld them together to make bigger items. By Philip's time that was all old hat. Bronze was simply the traditional metal of choice for helmets and most other metal armor.

Sure, there's always the question of what hasn't survived, or has been found but stuck away in a drawer somewhere. But we've found enough other iron artifacts that there should have been a few helmet fragments among them if iron Corinthian helmets were at all common. So far, zippo. There are several places to get nice brass or bronze Corinthian helmets for living history purposes, but I think plated steel is a great idea for an SCA combat helmet. More Greeks!

The multi-piece bronze Corinthians are fascinating! But again, VERY rare compared to the one-piece examples.

Khairete,

Matthew

[Gabriel Morgan]

]

Gabriel,

Could you post that source? I am currently working on a commission for a linothorax made in leather, which seems more likely to me than one made entirely out of iron.

That's my commission you are going to be working on, you abominably silly person.

The reason I put the word linothorax in quotes was because it wasn't "lino" at all - it was metal, done to mimic the design of linothorax. And Matthew has already posted a link, I see.

The traditional linothorax was made of layered linen and glue, not leather OR metal. That's ok, though. The one you are working on is for SCA combat, and I'm certain it will look and perform smashingly. I'm greatly looking forward to seeing how it turns out.

[Uilleag]

That's my commission you are going to be working on, you abominably silly person.

Don't I feel abominably silly! I loose track of names, that's why I keep records and deal with email! O many names, so many projects, so little brain!

I'll be posting pics as I develop your piece and will post them here.

[Dan Howard]

You sure do come across like a tool Dan

Hopefully a useful tool.

and im not sure i see him using that question as a point of argument, sounds more like a simple question of iron vs bronze to me.

If that is the case I apologise.

[Dan Howard]

Regarding Philip's cuirass, the original report by Andronicos has little that might help in making a reconstruction. He wastes a lot of the word count on the pretty gold trimmings and decoration. There is nothing about weight, plate thickness or metallurgical analysis but there is a little regarding its overall construction. The total report can be found in Vergina: The Royal Tombs by Manolis Andronicos. Pages 137-144

The following is the only section that might help in making a reconstruction.

"As one might imagine, the cuirass is made up in sections, hinged together by means of small tubular projections on either side of the parts to be joined, through which passed a seperate pin. The body of the cuirass is made up of four sheets, one covering the chest, one on either side and one over the back; a fifth section which however consisted of only a metal border and which may have been covered with cloth and leather was found on the underside of the part which covered the chest. The shoulder pieces were each made up of two sections and thus a double joint, one on top of the shoulder to the sheet covering the back, and the second to the front plate. There was therefore a total of eight joints so that in practice the cuirass could open up flat; it is obvious how practical this was, both when the warrior had to gird himself for battle and then when he was in action since its many joints left the fighter free to move in any way he needed. A leather piece was attached to the lower edge which had left traces on the oxidized edges of the iron. One part of it, found on the floor, we managed to save. Lastly there were the flaps at the bottom, probably of leather sheathed in gold; fifty-eight oblong gold sheets, each decorated with three palmettes, were found."

[Felix Wang]

Since I am not a metalworker, I will ask for some basic information. Is the process of raising a helmet in iron the same as in bronze? If the processes are different, which is more technically more demanding?

[Amalric Unomen]

Well, I did wonder if there were other reasons why we have bronze corinthians, but not iron ones. Regarding the Aztecs I was not aware they made any use of iron, so would not think they had iron helmets. Are there inventories specifying bronze helmets? Are there reasons an iron helmet would not have been made? Is it possible that a bronze helmet would be more likely retained as a trophy or heirloom due to its better keeping qualities? Is it easier to silver or guild bronze? Are illustrations clearly all bronze? May a possible iron helmet have been converted to a different style of helmet, using the bowl for example?

I really do not know much about the period, and view it more as an interesting intellectual exercise. I realize just because they could have done something, does not mean they did.

[Kenwrec Wulfe]

I believe that is at the root of my dilema. DID they?
I checked another library and found nothing to support it, so.... it appears that I will have to discuss this with my client and go with their wishes on the accuracy part.

Thank you all for the comments. Whatever the end result, I will post pics upon completion.

[Corrius]

The below is based on what I believe I have read, but can't be bothered to look up now:

The Spartans used bronze for their armor because Lycurgus the Law-giver decided it was easier to keep shiny & impressive-looking. This was, what, 6 or 700 B.C.? Well, change never came easily to the Spartans.

So, the Spartans had bronze. They also had scarlet cloaks. And they were very good at killing poeple from other cities/countries. After a while, all the other Greeks wore red cloaks when they wanted to kill each other, too. If red was good enough for the Spartans, it was dem-well good enough for everybody else. In fighting, anyways.

I believe this trickle-down fashion continued well into the Roman Empire - Praetorian Guards wore red, right?

So, maybe, for Lycurgus' practical reasons, or maybe just because the Spartans did it ("It's gotta be the shoes, er, bronze!"), I reckon the Greeks did it because the Spartans did it.

Maybe

Corrius.

[Corrius]

On the subject of using bronze now, the SCA society minimum standars mention bronze as a possible substitute for steel for helms, I think.

Also, over in "Armor - Design & Construction" there's a thread now about Silicon Bronze, though I'm not sure what that is, and folks are saying it's about as strong as mild steel.

Corrius.

[Dan Howard]

There is some dispute as to whether Lykurgus actually existed and it is unlikely that the above reason was why Sparta used bronze. It is more likely that they used bronze because it was better for plate armour (if Lykurgus existed he would have written his laws in the 7th century). The Vergina cuirass dates to much later. Even during this later period bronze was used for armour because it was easier to work than iron and provided similar protection. If it was well-cast and work hardened it could actually provide better protection than wrought iron. Steel can provide better protection than bronze but there is no evidence to suggest that steel was used to make armour until much, much later. A metallurgical analysis of the Vergina cuirass would be helpful but there isn't one.

[Matthew Amt]

I don't believe armor or helmets were ever cast, but rather worked from bronze billets or plates. Net result is the same, though, work-hardened bronze, and yeah, it's certainly decent stuff!

The Spartans definitely influenced military fashions in the rest of Greece, and THEY believed that Lycurgus had given them their laws, so our doubts don't matter much on that score. But the use of bronze in general wasn't due to its use by the Spartans, it was simply because that was the appropriate metal for armor. Even after iron became much more widespread, bronze remained fashionable--everyone was pretty conservative back then, and it worked well enough that no one felt the need to change.

It's really hard to say whether bronze is easier to work than iron. It might ultimately depend on which metal you were used to working with. If you've never done anything but heat bronze and quench it to anneal it before hammering, trying your first piece of iron will be very educational! Bronze can also be cast into a blank of any shape you need, and worked from there, whereas with iron you start with a lump. Iron, of course, has the advantage that you can work it hot. Modern armorers who have worked with steel and modern bronze can give us their thoughts, but ancient iron and especially ancient bronze had different qualities. I'd love to hear more from anyone who has worked with the "real thing".

Oh, on the Praetorian Guards, evidence is very scanty but actually seems to indicate that their tunics were white or undyed. Cloaks were brown or other colors. But colors in the Roman army is another huge debate altogether!

Khairete,

Matthew

[Patrick Thaden]

Here are two pics of the helmet I mentioned, I for some reason was thinking it was of iron, but these pics don't convince me of that. Ah well, still an interesting helmet


It does look rather odd for a bronze helmet though.

[Corrius]

Hmmm - I think that that is very early - before the developement of the phalanx proper (as a rough time-period - I'm not trying to stir up the "which came first, the armor or the phalanx" debate), around the time of Lycurgus - there's no brow-ridge, and you can see the holes around the edges for the sewn-in lining. Much easier to make, of course.

IIRC, it would have been used with two spears (throw 'em or poke) and maybe even early enough for a center-grip shield.

[Sceotan]

Remember that Iron was equally not the preferd metal for cannons until the 19c when rifleing became an issue and you can't rifle a brass or bronze bore. Brass and Bronze just seem to have been the metals of choice for many military items. I personally think a bronze helm has more flair than an iron one would have which more than likely would have been in consideration on the battlefield.
Sceotan.

[ushumgal]

Don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but there was actually an iron helm found in the tomb at Vergina attributed to Philip (though there is actually good reason to believe it actually belonged to Philip III Arrhidaeus, Alexander's half-brother and successor). I suspect iron helms started coming into vogue during the Hellenistic period, but were still uncommon - there is, after all, only one example of such. Certainly, there is no indication that Corinthian helmets were ever made of iron, and that style had died out by the Hellenistic period anyway.

http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/Helle ... _D15e.html

Best,
Jamie
LU2.DUB.SAR