New To Armoring, Trying Hardened Leather

[Ja'ida]

Hi all. I have been enjoying reading the archive for a couple of months now. Just joined recently. I am starting a hardened leather kit for my husband.

Anyway, we started with hardened vambraces. Now that they are completely dry, I'm not happy with them. They are hard I'll give them that, but they are not 'nice' looking. I don't like how dry they are, but I'm unsure what to put on them as I don't want them to get softer. I also want to know how to finish the edges.

Also, to make them harder (there are some softer spots on them) would wax hardening them help?

I have a load of new leather working tools, but don't know where to start. Is there anyone out there experienced in finishing hardened leather?

Thanks for any help!

Ja'ida

[Richard de Scolay]

I'm no expert, but based on my few attempts it sounds like you over cooked them. During my last batch I did a bunch of sample pieces where I left them in the hot water for increasingly longer. The ones that were in too long dried out as you describe it and were quite brittle as well.

My experience and what I've read from others leads me to believe this this is a fairly imprecise process and the best way to figure out what works best for the particular piece of leather you are hardening is to have enough to run a few tests first to find the right temp/time combination before doing the actual piece.

Good luck...

[Ja'ida]

I'm no expert, but based on my few attempts it sounds like you over cooked them. During my last batch I did a bunch of sample pieces where I left them in the hot water for increasingly longer. The ones that were in too long dried out as you describe it and were quite brittle as well.

It's just the outside that is dry. It's definitely not brittle. They still have some 'flex', hence why I was thinking about wax hardening as well. I'm having more of an issue with finishing the leather than anything.

I have been reading the archives and have come across rabbit glue hardening. I've never heard of this before. Anyone had any experience with it? Is it the same as gesso?

All the hardened I've seen done by experienced people the leather is nice and smooth and definitely not what I've achieved to this point. I'm just at a loss as to here to go from here from a finishing standpoint.

Ja'ida

[Brian W. Rainey]

Uilleag is your man.

[Richard de Scolay]

Even hardened leather will have some flex left in it. And I'm guessing the smooth finished stuff you've seen was wax hardened rather than water hardened. Or at least it had some wax and/or other finish applied to the surface to protect it.

The people in the know are on the board, perhaps when they have time they'll chime in.

[Uilleag]

Ja'ida,

I can probably help you, but I need to know what technique you used to harden them.

As for finishing the edges, that process should be started before you shape them and harden them. Do you have a beveling tool? How about an edge slicker? These tools will round your edges and give them a burnished, professional finish.

What you can do to bring out the natural luster of the leather, after they have been water hardened, is natural shoe polish. Kiwi shoe polish brings out a good luster and doesn't effect the dyes you have used to color them.

The method I use for hardening leather is prolonged, but I get consistent results. Start by casing the leather with room temp water. Shape the project, (I dish my leather, just like steel) or you can shape it by hand...after you have work hardened the leather finish the drying process in the oven. Set the oven at 150 - 200 degrees, place the project on a cookie sheet, check the project every 15 - 30 minutes, allow it to stay in the oven until it is completely dry. Be careful, do not let the edges crisp up on you. Seal the project with polishing wax and buff it out to a nice sheen.

Hope this helps! If you have any other questions, let me know. Also, I would be interested in hearing how you hardened your vanbraces.

[Richard de Scolay]

Uilleag, thanks for sharing the method you use. If you are getting consistant results that's pretty cool. Sounds like I'll have to give that method a try myself.

[Wulfgar Davinsson]

I've had very good results by immersing the cased leather in hot water (just below the simmering point) and watching carefully.. just as the edges START to curl I remove it and shape it on a form. Then oven dry it as mentioned above. Takes practice but the results are pretty much gauranteed.

[Ja'ida]

Thanks for the info Uilleag. I will give your method a try.

I think my main problem was not doing anything at all to the edges before I started the hardening process.

I hardened the leather buy immersing in room temp water until all the bubbles stopped, the putting it in 180 degree water and removing the piece once the edges started to curl. I let it air dry, it took about 4 days to dry completely.

Do you get shrinkage using your method? Mine did shrink, but no where near what I thought it would, probably only about 10%. I was counting on about 20-25%.

When you say a polishing wax, what type to you mean? Also, what do you use to buff it out?

I think the vambraces are going to become test pieces for finishing. I'm not very happy with them at all. I would like to eventually learn tooling, so I might fool around with these.

Ja'ida

[Akmatov]

Some folks on this forum helped me out with this a little while ago.

I've tried hot-water hardening and I 'think' that gives the hardest result. However, it also has a high likelyhood of resulting in distorted shapes! I'm making hardened leather lamellar armour and wierd twisted shapes just aren't what I can work with, no matter how hard.

The clan secret that was revieled to me was Rabbit Glue! This is a hide glue used to put a layer on top of bare canvas prior to painting on it. You can get it at good art supply stores. It isn't cheap (@ $15/lbs), but you mix it like one tablespoon per liter of water - so it will last a long time. I think what it does is to fill the pores of the leather the same way wax does with the more usual SCA wax-treated leather. I live in Arizona and my plactic athletic cup melted in my car this summer, so I'm not interested in investing many hours in creating leather armour that goes limp in the heat - which I've been told wax-treated leather will do.

I'm a total newbie at this, but here is the method I'm using based on much excellent advise mixed with my own ideas:

1. Dye the leather and let it dry for a day or two.
2. Cut, punch & form the leather
3. Mix your Rabbit Glue the night before in a recycled glass jar.
4. Soak the pieces for one hour in room temp water. (I've been told the theory here is for the leather to be soaked all the way through to the center so the glue can permeate to the center also.)
5. Heat the oven to 200 degrees F
6. Put the Rabbit Glue jar in a pot of water and heat to @ 180F. You are putting the glue on to hot leather and you want the glue hot also.
7. Hand shape the pieces and place on a cookie sheet covered with aluminum foil after brushing on Rabbit Glue.
8. Bake 15 minutes.
9. Brush on more Rabbit Glue. Reshape as needed
10. Bake 15 more minutes.
- I been brushing on 4 - 5 doses of Rabbit Glue between 15 minute bakings.
11. After the last dosing of Rabbit Glue, bake for 30 more minutes.
12. Take the cookie sheet out of the oven and cool for 15 - 30 minutes in the freezer. (One person suggested that he got harder leather this way).
13. Leave the leather in the open air for a day or two to completely dry.

This process gives me leather lames with the same dimensions as I cut them that are slightly flexable and combine the thickness of leather (which with the overlapping inherent in laced lamellar hopefully will act somewhat as a cushion) with a hardness equal to most plastic (I think, this stuff is pretty hard, but I don't really have a way to quantify that hardness, but it is MUCH harder than the raw leather).

At this point I'm in the process of making many, many of these pieces, so how it will work out laced together is still to be discovered. So far the only negitive I've found is that the Rabbit Glue doesn't penetrate the dyed side of the leather much and I get a pattern of dried glue that looks like water stains. Not bad looking, just not what I was expecting. I'm going to experiment and see if some sort of wax, clear shoe polish?, might improve the look.

Hope this is helpful, many kind souls contributed to the above method,

[Uilleag]

My responses will be marked with *** before and after my reply.

Thanks for the info Uilleag. I will give your method a try.

I think my main problem was not doing anything at all to the edges before I started the hardening process.

***That can definately cause you a problem. Leather can still be worked minimumly after it has been hardend and shaped, but it becomes a difficult task at best.***

I hardened the leather buy immersing in room temp water until all the bubbles stopped, the putting it in 180 degree water and removing the piece once the edges started to curl. I let it air dry, it took about 4 days to dry completely.

*** That sounds like a good method to try, but immersing leather in hot water, cooks the leather. If the edges begin to curl, the cooking process has begun. If you are going to nail the piece onto a last and then trim the leather after it is dried, that is fine, but if you are hand forming or dish forming, you won't have the control you need to get the shape you desire.***

Do you get shrinkage using your method? Mine did shrink, but no where near what I thought it would, probably only about 10%. I was counting on about 20-25%.

***I get zero shrinkage using my method. The entire process is controled throughout and the finishing techniques are easier because they are begun before the hardening and shaping processes. Using my method you would cut out your exact pattern and begin from there.***

When you say a polishing wax, what type to you mean? Also, what do you use to buff it out?

***I use kiwi shoe polish, but any natural polishing agent would work. Stay away from polymers and acrylics, they chip over time, especially if you are going to use the piece in SCA combat.***


I think the vambraces are going to become test pieces for finishing. I'm not very happy with them at all. I would like to eventually learn tooling, so I might fool around with these.

***Tooling already shaped and hardened pieces is possible, but it is very difficult and you don't get the crisp finished look that you are looking for. I don't recommend it.***

Ja'ida

I'm really enjoying this conversation! Anyone else care to share....I'm always on the look out to learn new techniques.

[Maelgwyn]

Some folks on this forum helped me out with this a little while ago.

Hi Akmatov!

The clan secret that was revieled to me was Rabbit Glue!

Full credit to Chris Dobson and his AA prophet Joe Skeesick for bestowing this secret upon the Armour Archive clan!

I can fully endorse steps 1-11 and 13 from my own experience. I use scrap plywood instead of the cookie sheet but otherwise my methods are practically identical.

12. Take the cookie sheet out of the oven and cool for 15 - 30 minutes in the freezer. (One person suggested that he got harder leather this way).

Have you tried a side-by-side comparison? I'm a touch skeptical about this step, and I'm fairly confident that this was not a historical practice. Does it really make an observable difference?

This process gives me leather lames with the same dimensions as I cut them that are slightly flexable and combine the thickness of leather (which with the overlapping inherent in laced lamellar hopefully will act somewhat as a cushion) with a hardness equal to most plastic (I think, this stuff is pretty hard, but I don't really have a way to quantify that hardness, but it is MUCH harder than the raw leather).

Lace up a small section and take a picture? I'll try do do likewise.

[Ja'ida]

Akmatov,

I check out Dick Blick for Rabbit Glue, what I found was only artist gesso. Is this what you are using?

Ja'ida

[Uilleag]

I'm not sure if that is what Akmatov is using but, that should work. The Gesso provided by Dick Blick is hide glue....usually made out of rendered rabbit hide.

[Agravain]

Well this seems as good a post as any to ask this.
-How does the tooling stand up to the baking process?
-Will the base for the dye effect the absorbtion of the rabbit glue? ie: oil or water based dyes
-How does tooling stand up to heavy weapons combat in general?

I was originally just going to post that last question on it's own, but after seeing this thread, I thought I would piggyback on it. I'm just starting to get into making Heavy Weapons armour. Up until now, all my work has been done for either Stage, LARP, Live Steel combat, or Fencing. I have never fought heavy weapons, actually I don't think I've even held a peice of rattan LOL, so I am personally unfamiliar with the nitty gritty of it, but from what I've seen and heard it's much rougher on equipment than what I'm used to. I've had a few inquiries into some heavy weapons armour, but I don't want my customers to pay for nice tooling only to have it (the tooling, I am actually confident in the structural and protective qualities of the peice ) ruined in a year by repeated strikes by rattan. Or, at least give them the knowledge that this is a possiblity, than if they still want it, that's their choice. Any help, anicdotes, or experiences would be greatly helpful in this.
Thanks

[Uilleag]

Well this seems as good a post as any to ask this.
-How does the tooling stand up to the baking process?
-Will the base for the dye effect the absorbtion of the rabbit glue? ie: oil or water based dyes
-How does tooling stand up to heavy weapons combat in general?

***Check out this link for the answer to your first question: http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=35534

All of the tooling there was preformed before the baking process, and I think that it help up well.

The gesso was used as a preperation for painting, not dyeing. I would venture to say that the dyeing process would have to be done before applying the gesso. The gesso will seal the leather as well as harden it, so that most dyes will not adhere to it.

I have been fighting in tooled leather for over 6 years and it has held up very well. I will take pics of my bauzubands that I have used since 1998, and post them for you to see.***

[Agravain]

oooooo, them's purty. Ok, well that alleviates those fears. Thanks again.

[Akmatov]

what I found was only artist gesso. Is this what you are using?

As I understand it, artist gesso is glue mixed with finely powered marble used to create a surface on which to apply paint or gilding. What I'm using is just the glue, which can soak into the pores of the leather. I 'think' gesso would only put a surface layer on top of the leather.

I suspect that any hide-based glue would work just fine.

Hi Maelgwyn!!! You realize the mess in my kitchen is all your fault!!! Actually I'm very interested in this process and once the lamellar body armour is done - not any time real soon! It is a LOT of lames- I'm going to do some more experimenting on leg and arm armour. I got a new toy.

Akmatov wrote:
12. Take the cookie sheet out of the oven and cool for 15 - 30 minutes in the freezer. (One person suggested that he got harder leather this way).

Have you tried a side-by-side comparison? I'm a touch skeptical about this step, and I'm fairly confident that this was not a historical practice. Does it really make an observable difference?

Caught me! Ya mean Old King Cole didn't also call for a cold brewski from the fridge?

Actually I don't know if it helps or not. One of the guys had suggested it saying he noticed an improvement. It is certainly of questionable historical authenticity and I'd not claim it as such. So far I've had time to run one batch and just stuck it into the freezer to see what would happen. I haven't done a comparison yet, but I will, as best I can.

The basic problem is I don't know of a practical method of quantifying hardness in my kitchen. Subjectively I can tell that my rabbit leather is MUCH harder than the original leather. I'm also sure that hot water hardened leather is even harder, but twisted. But I don't have any way to test or quantify the hardness.

Lace up a small section and take a picture? I'll try do do likewise.

Good idea. Will probably not be till Monday as my schedule is pretty tight till then. I'd be very interested to see what you've got going.

[Uilleag]

Must have pics of these processes!

I'm currently working on a photo essay of a custom piece I am working on. It will be fairly extensive, I plan on starting with pattern layout and progressing throughout the entire project to the finished piece.

Leather is a very viable armouring material, but it is an expensive hobby at best. Hopefully, if enough of us leather enthusiasts can post our processes, others can learn from our mistakes and save a little time/money. Of course that will probably encrease the number of leather armourers and increase our competion!

[Akmatov]

Just peeked at your vambrace? and gaunts. Awesome!!!! Got me wondering.

[Uilleag]

Just peeked at your vambrace? and gaunts. Awesome!!!! Got me wondering.

What are you wondering about? Maybe I can answer the question....or are you contemplating a new project for yourself?

[Akmatov]

Wondering about whether I could give something like those a try. A gauntlet was already on my list of things to look into a couple of project down the line. Hadn't thought of doing a vambrace before, but with the dished out elbow style I could wear (or hmmm maybe rivet?) a metal elbow cop with them. Interesting idea.

[Maelgwyn]

I check out Dick Blick for Rabbit Glue, what I found was only artist gesso. Is this what you are using?

Try http://www.dickblick.com/zz089/23/produ ... ig_id=4683

Their gesso is a dry mixture of rabbit skin glue, gypsum, marble dust, and titanium dioxide. It probably won't soak in as well as plain rabbit glue.

You might want to review Joe's original post about this technique at http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... abbit+glue