Lames From Here To There

toweyb · Post by **toweyb** » Thu Nov 22, 2001 7:34 am

Happy Thanksgiving, Folks!

There were a couple of pictures in the "Armour from the Armoury of the dukes of Burgundy" exhibit that reminded me of a question.

These upper arms...

and these thighs...

...are all lames.

Have any of you seen armor that took the same idea even farther? Around the knee or elbow?

It seems like it would be a good project for somebody with tools that could cut, drill, and bend sheet metal, but who wasn't set up to do complex curves. Either they could make lames from top to bottom, or buy cops from Ron Simmons to turn the corner.

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Miror Otium Negotium Multum Requirare

[Addresses updated from Normandy to Burgundy]

[This message has been edited by toweyb (edited 11-29-2001).]

cyvad · Post by **cyvad** » Thu Nov 22, 2001 9:02 am

The ancient Roman Legions and gladiators wore a manica which covered the arm and elbow with segmented plates. They also used segmented plates on the upper legs. Check out legio xx. http://www.larp.com/legioxx/manica.html

Armourkris · Post by **Armourkris** » Thu Nov 22, 2001 7:20 pm

kinda half off topic here, but is it just me or does it look like those arms would really restrict the ability to move your arms upwards infront of you?

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Thu Nov 22, 2001 11:13 pm

Hi Guys,

While the shoulder defences posted seem crude, I will guarantee you that there are complex curves in those articulated lames on the 'ritter' harness (closely follow the play of light on it, and you will see what I mean). There are probably some complex curves in those shoulders as well.

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Bob R.

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Fri Nov 23, 2001 5:45 am

That gorget + arms thing is a 16th-c. invention known as an Almain Collar. It was a highly efficient neck and shoulder defense and it did not demand an enormous amount of complex-curve making to make one, thus it was easily turned out in quantity. There is one important feature to its construction. Here is the tale of how I found out about it.

In the Oakland, CA City Museum, there is a 16th-c. or so munition foot soldier's suit. It is not historically remarkable in any way -- the museum does not make any especial note of its provenance or anything, and the suit may be a composite suit, anyhow. The neat thing about this exhibit, though, is that the suit is on an armour stand right out on the floor of its exhibit room and you can walk right up and fog the metal with your breath if you want to. You can walk all around the entire suit and peer inside. When I did that, this is what I found: that the front rivets on the almain collar are regular articulating rivets, allowing the plates to swivel. The rear rivets are all sliding rivets, each one working in about a 5/8" slot. This is the secret to getting your arm mobility forward, and is not something much shown in museum armor catalog books.

wcallen · Post by **wcallen** » Mon Nov 26, 2001 8:41 am

Chef is correct on the shaping. If you look closely at both the shoulders and legs, there is a reasonable amount of shaping in them.

There are some extremely crude versions of the shoulders that have plates that are almost flat, but almost all of them have far more shape.

The ones I have played with (and the single shoulder from one which I own) show what you have to do to make one of these really work. All of the plates taper from back to front (they are not just 'bands'. The upper plates are dished - especially the second one. the whole unit tapers from the top where it has to match the gorget down to the bottom plate which needs to fit roughly to your bicep.

Once you have done all that, the plates are attached by sliding rivets in the back (as mentioned), and leathers in the center and along the front. You can often find pieces like this where the front is attached by solid rivets - those were added in the 19th or 20th centuries to make the pieces display nicely when the leather broke down. I have some pieces like this, someday I will strip them apart and put leathers back in. All I need is some good buff leather and the time....

Just in case you are tempted to try a set of these shoulders made from strips... We did it once. It looked great - just like the pictures. It just didn't move

Once you work out the shaping on the plates, you really can make the parts for these quickly. They don't require pointing to hold them on. They don't really have to fit very well. All reasons that they were made in large quantities for munitions armour.

toweyb · Post by **toweyb** » Mon Nov 26, 2001 6:35 pm

Chef and wcallen-

Which way do the slots go? Vertically (crosswise to the band), to free the arm to raise and lower? Horizontally (lengthwise to the band) to ease movement from front to back? Or some subtle diagonal?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by wcallen:
Once you work out the shaping on the plates, you really can make the parts for these quickly. They don't require pointing to hold them on. They don't really have to fit very well. All reasons that they were made in large quantities for munitions armour.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds perfect! Most of the engineering goes into the pattern, not the manufacture.

The manica that cyvad posted is pretty cool-looking. Are there surviving examples from the middle ages? Or did this die out in the 500s?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by wcallen:
Just in case you are tempted to try a set of these shoulders made from strips... We did it once. It looked great - just like the pictures. It just didn't move <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the warning!

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Miror Otium Negotium Multum Requirare

[This message has been edited by toweyb (edited 11-26-2001).]

toweyb · Post by **toweyb** » Fri Nov 30, 2001 7:40 am

How 'bout that manica? Was that purely a Roman style, or did it survive / revive during the Middle Ages?

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Fri Nov 30, 2001 5:50 pm

Hi Toweyb,

The Mancia is a Roman phenomenon, and to the best of my knowledge it did not reoccur. It certainly wasn't used in Northern Europe in the 15th century.

As to the articulation on the lames on an almain rivet - I've never bothered to look at the one in the Higgin collection (because it would be a bother to the curatorial staff), as it is on public display. I shan't venture to guess, other than to speculate a lot of the articulating is done on leathers. When they next do conservation on it, I'll try to take a look.

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Bob R.

[This message has been edited by chef de chambre (edited 11-30-2001).]

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Fri Nov 30, 2001 7:54 pm

Heres a pic of the interior of one from my ex-personal collection.example is mid-late 16th cent german.....Otto
[img]http://members.aol.com/ottokits/IMG_0372.jpg[/img]
[img]http://members.aol.com/ottokits/IMG_.0372.jpg
[/img]

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Fri Nov 30, 2001 7:57 pm

hmmmmm, ok.. heres the interior LOL.....otto [img]http://members.aol.com/ottokits/IMG_0373.jpg[/img]

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Fri Nov 30, 2001 8:02 pm

Its almost impossible to see in the pic, but there were sliding rivits in the front,hidden by the washers. Note square and irregular homemade washers,typical for old armour,seems they just snipped off a piece of plate whenever washers were needed.Remnants of some old petrified leather visable...Otto

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Sat Dec 01, 2001 1:37 am

About what guage is it?

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Sat Dec 01, 2001 6:51 am

probably about 18 gauge on the average, though probably thinner or thicker in spots.
.....Otto
Ps even though most pieces I had were fairly thin,they were dent free.Seems like the old stuff cracked before it dented.Also for some reason the old armour is pretty rust resistant,much more so than modern mild steel.