Question about Plastic Armors?

pern009 · Post by **pern009** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:41 am

I'm new to the SCA and am interested in getting a good start w/o spendy a ton of money (which I don't have ;-( ). But i've been looking into plastic armor and am wondering if it's worth the small investment? Here are two that I am currently looking at:

darkvictory.com (the whole set for $230)
http://www.plasticlamellar.com

I do have a friend that can make some decent leather armor for about as much as i'm willing to spend but with my options i'm not sure which would be the best. Any feedback would be appriciated!

Thanks!

Casey
USA

Stahlgrim · Post by **Stahlgrim** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 9:14 am

Casey,
If you are realy willing to put on plastic you can do it for a lot less then $200.00 !
You can pick up a sheet of kydex for aroud $35.00-$50.00 and a plastic barrel is ussualy no more then$5.00- $15.00.the benifit to plastic is its relative ease for the new guy to work himself all you need is a jigsaw and a drill ,a heat source. and a little time
If you are willing to spend that type of money I say go ahead and do leather or metal armour.
Most likely if you stay fighting you will outgrow your first armour within 6 months to a year( and I don't mean you will gain weight)
Most areas ask that you cover plastic which is easy if its the torso but can be tricky on the arms and legs. as for the lammelar I am spending the about the same money for stainless steel from White Mountain Armoury that I would have for plastic and it looks a whole lot better.
My current leather Lamellar armour I made for $140.00 in material costs and 18 hours time invested.but that was only for the torso.

pern009 · Post by **pern009** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 9:21 am

Do you know of any tutitorial on how to make this kind of armor? I'd be willing to invest the time, just need to know how to make it. Thanks.

D. Sebastian · Post by **D. Sebastian** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 9:25 am

DAMN!
I made a big post and it got eaten.

Oh well, I'll do this instead...

DV review, pro and con.

Jordan is a great guy.
His stuff is highly discouraged.

Go to the Carwash and get some pickle barrels (the soap comes in 35-45 gal plastic drums, the one by me throws them away and is happy for me to take em). There has to be someone that can help you make useable armour, there are also patterns all over the net.

Who cares if you make a mistake, just get another barrel. When you have somthing useable, cover it with leather (or even thin metal!).

VIOLA!!

Good luck, let us know what happens.

D. Sebastian · Post by **D. Sebastian** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 9:28 am

BTW, this lamellar kit (chest and back, shoulders, upper arms, thighs) was made by Thaddeus with plastic and a bit of leather.

Stahlgrim · Post by **Stahlgrim** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 9:32 am

Dont forget if you are useing carwash barrels or any others for that matter to rinse the heck out of 'em.
I ussualy put the pieces in the dishwasher no soap after I cut them out.
I think they have a lacing pattern in the pattern section of this site.
Lacing will probably tace as long or longer to do as making the lames.

pern009 · Post by **pern009** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 9:41 am

The Lamellar is starting to sound pretty good for the chest portion and it looks good, my only concern is trying to make the arms and legs that sounds kind of tricky.

Diglach Mac Cein · Post by **Diglach Mac Cein** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 9:58 am

Noble Plastics Lamellar is reasonably priced -

www.plasticlamellar.com

Looks a lot better than most people can manage cutting pieces out themselves - molded, all smooth edges and holes, and the color is very good - though I would avoid the silver in their Auk plates - looks too "flat". Brown, burgundy and black look very good. It can also be cut (color goes nearly all the way through) and heat shaped to a degree.

Dilan

D. Sebastian · Post by **D. Sebastian** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:15 am

For the arms and thighs, take a piece of card board and give it an easy bend it so that it's 1/2+ way around your arm (or leg). Trim it till its slightly larger than you want it. That's your measurement of how big to make the section of lamellar.

Add a strap and then lace it into the body piece.
This works well for cuisses.
For upper arms, you should make soulder cops and lace it to them.

You'll do a lot of adding and removing of plates and moving parts around after each practice until you get it how you like it, but thats the nature of the beast.

pern009 · Post by **pern009** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:17 am

Great, this is some great info for a newbie! The Lamellar website says that 'it will not prevent injury' so does wearing a gambeson under it do the job?

sulla · Post by **sulla** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:25 am

I actually made a lamellar harness with shoulders from noble plastics (not for the SCA) and it was some great stuff. Light weight I suppose, and a weekend of threading and viola - usefull harness.

I do believe you have to wear some padding right? for the SCA? Even for larp, the knots and strings on the inside of the lames dug in on the shoulders and colar bones.

I even disassembled it and sold the lames to a beginning SCA fighter reently.

-Andy B.

mattmaus · Post by **mattmaus** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:29 am

Realisticly, the noble plastics lamelar will not be enough to protect you from injury at all.

Sir Haroun wears this over heavy leather (not hardened) and at one time said something to me along the lines of "Yeah.. if I got hit as much as some of these other guys, I'd be pissing blood."

It simply isn't heavy/thick/stiff enough for SCA combat.

That isn't to say that Lamellar in general, or even plastic lamellar. Just not the noble plastics stuff. But don't take my word for it... as has been pointed out by others, it says RIGHT on their site that it isn't.

Maelgwyn · Post by **Maelgwyn** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:29 am

Most armour sites say something like that. I wear a light gambeson under my plastic lamellar and I am quite comfortable with how it feels when my opponent hits the armour. Some opponents have a talent for missing the armour and hitting you where you are less protected, thus the disclaimer. No armour short of a tank can "prevent injury".

PS Matt, my experience has been 100% different from your statement. Did Sir Haroun use the early (thin) batches of "auk" plates? My "newcastle" plates are quite thick and sturdy.

PPS Dilan is right, brown, burgundy and black look good but avoid the other colors. The "metal" plates are way too thick to look like realistic metal.

Hugo de Stonham · Post by **Hugo de Stonham** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:31 am

I was just thinking of making my arms and legs out of plastic. How do you shape the Plastic?

Grendal

mattmaus · Post by **mattmaus** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:43 am

Maelgwyn wrote:PS Matt, my experience has been 100% different from your statement. Did Sir Haroun use the early (thin) batches of "auk" plates? My "newcastle" plates are quite thick and sturdy.

Um... I don't know if they are 'auk' or not. I'm not the guy to ask about lamellar plates

They're tiny little buggers tho. Probbaly like 1/16th inch thin or less. The originals he had were recalled for a cracking problem, and he got the newer ones after they changed the plastic they made them out of.

D. Sebastian · Post by **D. Sebastian** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:47 am

2 ways:

Oven and welding gloves.
BE CAREFUL. You can burn your self and ruin your oven.
Then shape on a log and wrap with a wet towel and duct tape to cool.

Heat gun and welding gloves.
Same as above.

I've always wondered about boiling water and plastic...

Also, you can make leather cuisses, vambraces, and rear braces and splint them (inside) with plastic splints. This requires no heating. If you go that way, than a canvas COP with plastic as the plates.

mattmaus · Post by **mattmaus** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:49 am

grendal wrote:I was just thinking of making my arms and legs out of plastic. How do you shape the Plastic?

Grendal

If it's a barrel, you can spot heat with a heat gun (paint stripper) or heat a whole peice in the oven. 250 for 3-5 minutes. Then hold it till it cools. It's HOT so wear some gloves. In my experience, you will want to overshape the peices, as they will tend to want to unshape on their own.

Other types would of course depend on what you're using. Your plastic source should be able to give you some details.

A COP as D. Sebastian suggests would be a fairly easy project, and if you start with a barrel, the curve of the barrel would provide most of the shaping you needed. Also the canvas would cover it up, and make it more visualy pleasing to most people.

If you do go with a barrel, look for the seams before you cut. They are visible from the outside (sometimes right away, sometimes you have to really look for them). Your barrel will be MUCH thicker in the seam areas.

Maelgwyn · Post by **Maelgwyn** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:59 am

Grendal and Casey, the lamellar works well for upper arm , body, and hip protection. For lower arms, thighs and shins you could use barrel plastic or Kydex but by the time you buy, cut, shape and strap this material you will have invested so much time effort and money that you might just as well have made something authentic. Leather is more expensive than plastic but easier to work and it can be hardened using historical techniques. Metal is actually cheaper for the material and it can be shaped with a few basic tools. If you have access to a shop or have a friend with access to a shop or can find someone in your local group with access to a shop then steel armour is actually the cheapest and easiest to make. For elbow and knee cops I thinks that steel is best because it can be formed into properly dished shapes. Plastic and leather can be formed this way but it requires experience and/or expensive tools.

My class handout at http://www.cox-internet.com/kmarsh/armour.doc provides some guidance for planning a set of armour so that you can portray a fighter from a particular time and place. I encourage you to use the forms in that document to create an armour plan before deciding on the shape or material of the armour you will use for each part of your body. You really don't want to look like an explosion in a time machine when you take the field, and with a little planning you don't have to.

Diglach Mac Cein · Post by **Diglach Mac Cein** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 1:03 pm

With Noble Plastics' Auk plates, you will want some sort of gambeson underneath - they are thin - but they have corrected the formula that caused the initial run to crack too easy.

The Newcastle are thicker - I just wear a tunic under it, and it is more than sufficient IMO - I've worn it year around, in Midrealm Crown, Pennsic Belted Champions, etc. - no problems.

Dilan

Sir Thorfinn · Post by **Sir Thorfinn** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 2:50 pm

I have a torso of the Newcastle plates already done, worn once, that only needs shoulder straps.
Plate color is pewter.
For sale if ya want it...
PM me...

Thorfinn

Cunian · Post by **Cunian** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 6:18 pm

Boiling water works quite nicely with plastic, as long as you are sticking with simple curves. It doesn't get "plastic" enough to form it over a knee cop or something like that, but you can bend it around something. I always used it because it was not so stinky and I didn't have a spare oven to dedicate to it. It's also very foolproof - you leave it in the boiling water for a minute or two, pull it out and mess with it. If it doesn't work, you dunk it back in. Until you're happy.

Hugo de Stonham · Post by **Hugo de Stonham** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 7:02 pm

I will have to try boilling pastic. It seems to be the easy way to go. I didn't know you could form knee cops from plastic. How is that done?

Grendal

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 9:10 pm

If you are going to buy plastic at least get egg armor stuff, it looks like real armor.

If you want to do leather get some metal cops and the :Excellent Thick Veg Tan Sides for Tooling, Carving, Wet-Forming, or Armor! In Black or Natural Tan!: from http://www.brettunsvillage.com/leather/sides.htm. I made my arms, upper legs, gorget, greaves, and some shoe soles all from one $75 hide and my elbows and kees cost less than $30 so I got everything but my CoP and Helm out of it for $100 of materials. I am the guy with red armor:

[img]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/flonzy/images/Pennsic04/Real%20Men%20Tourney/full/asbojornVSme2.jpg[/img]

Cunian · Post by **Cunian** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:24 pm

Metal is really the best way to go for cops. Simple, unpolished metal cops are really very, very affordable.

That said, if you get plastic very hot - in an oven - you can mold it over a metal cop, or if you are just doing simple boiling, you can cut a roughly rectangular piece of plastic and then make diagonal cuts in the corners. (If you want a wing, start the diagonal cuts over a couple inches on one side to give yourself plastic for a cop on that side. The diagonal cuts go in a few inches. Then you heat this up and "fold" one plastic corner over the other on each corner. (try it with cardboard to make a decent pattern and get the idea). Then tack the fold together with pop rivets so that it holds.

These cops are clunkily large and crack in time. As I said I really think metal is the way to go for cops.

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:27 pm

Cunian wrote:Metal is really the best way to go for cops. Simple, unpolished metal cops are really very, very affordable.

That said, if you get plastic very hot - in an oven - you can mold it over a metal cop, or if you are just doing simple boiling, you can cut a roughly rectangular piece of plastic and then make diagonal cuts in the corners. (If you want a wing, start the diagonal cuts over a couple inches on one side to give yourself plastic for a cop on that side. The diagonal cuts go in a few inches. Then you heat this up and "fold" one plastic corner over the other on each corner. (try it with cardboard to make a decent pattern and get the idea). Then tack the fold together with pop rivets so that it holds.

I'll agree with Cunian that metal is the prefered way to go but if you MUST work in plastic I will disagree as to technique. The easist way to make a plastic knee or elbow cop (or spaulder cop or any complex curve) is to work in INSIDE a mold and not over the outside. Get the plastic VERY elastic by SLOW heating, if you fast heat plastic the outer layers will slogh off like molten wax while the core resists bending. Place the plastic over the negative form and push hard into the bottom of the bowl with heavy gloves. Hold in place until it cools. You may need to switch grips to keep from burning yourself. Avoid using metal implements which will scar the plastic and cause uneaven cooling. Thinner plastic actually works better as it heats easier and more evenly and I prefer 1/8" Kydex to ABS despite the cost.

I recomend covering plastic whenever possible.

Some armorers have made not esteticly displeasing and rather functional armor by following historic designs and principals. Other armorers have built functional but ugly as Sh!t armor for sale. I will let you decide who is who.

Remember there are plenty of people building (or importing from india) VERY ugly and unsafe metal armor so lets not discriminate against the plastic too much.

Sean (Who wishes he had more time to pound metal lately)

Hew · Post by **Hew** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:46 pm

When I made some curved bands for a Lorica Segmentata torso out of barrel plastic (HDPE) with a heat gun, I discovered that it was better to heat the inside of the bands, instead of the outside.

When you heat one side of the plastic, it tends to curve away from the hot side, so you figure, okay, the hot side will be the outside of the band. Once you get what you think is a good curve you stop, and then when it cools off it straightens out. D'oh!

When I switched to heating mainly the inside, it would initially curve the wrong way but then it got soft enough to bend the right way, even just from gravity, and it was less likely to straighten out too much. You can actually see it go slightly pale when it's hot enough.

One thing about barrel plastic to remember also is that the thickness of the plastic requires that each overlapping layer (lames, lorica bands, whatever) be slightly longer if you want the ends to line up. Not easily evident if you make a bristol board mockup for a pattern, because the bristol board is so thin. Corrugated cardboard is thicker, so it may behave more like the barrel plastic. This may be less true if you make the long edges curved, such that each layer is sort of cone shaped.

Faith Rayne · Post by **Faith Rayne** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 11:24 pm

I also have some plastic Lorica Segmentata. Its really comfortable even though large. (Shoulders go down to the elbows though it fits around the waist.) You really need to wear some padding under it and I currently use Army issue long underwear. (The thick brown stuff for those who may know.) It really prevents the pinching you'll get from armor and it won't wear out to fast if you are using plastic. I just need to get up off my butt and relace it with some 550 cord as the guy who made mine used a thicker rope.

Hew · Post by **Hew** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:48 am

Couldn't remember the name before, but wouldn't barrel plastic be good in a corrizon? - http://www.oaksarmoury.com/corrazina/index.htm

It looks simple enough that you could do a cardboard mockup and just wing it for a pattern.

Asbjorn Johansen · Post by **Asbjorn Johansen** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 2:21 pm

Given that you have some money to spend. Formed simple elbows and knees are the way to go. You can purchase simple elbows from Cet at Valhalla Forge (aka Rough from the Hammer). I believe simple elbows are under $20 and simple kness are under $25 a pair. The hardest shaping parts will be done for you. Get them in mild steel if you don't have a decent drill or stainless if you have a good drill and bit combo (to drill holes for the straps).

This link should take you straight to his profile so you can get his email addres

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... ile&u=2041

Email Cet. His wife just had a baby so it may take a day or two for him to get back to you, but purchasing this will save you a tone of effort.

Hugo de Stonham · Post by **Hugo de Stonham** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 7:41 pm

I already have made some steel elbow and knees before. And will probably make them from steel for my group. I seems to be alot easyer than plastic but the rest of the armour will be made form plastic because its cheap and will make a good starting harness (if they chose to wear any armour). I just hope my first attempt looks good.

Grendal

Question about Plastic Armors?

Question about Plastic Armors?

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