Spanish 1570?

Hugo de Stonham · Post by **Hugo de Stonham** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 12:08 am

I recieved a spanish comb morion at a party 2 weeks ago. I would like to put togeter an outfit based on the spanish conquest of america. I have been told that the helmet is from the late 1500's but I'm sure someone knows for sure. I would like to know what clothing to wearnad what kinds of weapons and armor to use. Any help would be appriciated.

Grendal

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 5:35 pm

I think comb morions are too late for Cortez, Pizzaro, Soto, or Coronado. I would say too late for any 'Conquest' portrayal, although they would be used later on in places like St. Augustine as a 'Colonial'.

Gwyneth · Post by **Gwyneth** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:52 pm

Grendal -

Boy are you in luck! Check out Juan de Alcega's Tailor's Pattern Book c. 1589. All the patterns you need! Unfortunately, they are measured in Castilian ells, so a bit of conversion will be necessary. You should be able to get it on Amazon.

Do be aware that the patterns aren't exactly like modern patterns - they are more of a guide to shape and layout than a pattern you can just enlarge and use as-is. But definitely check it out - it's a primary source for clothing patterns for approximately the time and place you are looking at.

My next major project is a gown from an Alcega pattern - I'm going to start on the undies next year, and maybe get the gown finished by New Year's 2006!

Gwyneth

P.S. Here's a link to the book on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... ce&s=books

Hopefully you won't have to cut and paste too much........

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 9:06 am

FYI in the facsimile copy of Juan de Alcega's Tailor's Pattern Book c. 1589 we have, there is a coversion table in the front that goes from ells to cms.

Jenn (prentending to be Chef today).

Gwen · Post by **Gwen** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 10:55 am

....but 1589 is well past "conquest" and the shapes of clothing had changed a good bit between 1500 and 1589.

Alcega is a fantastic reference for 1589 clothing, but not so much for 1500.

Gwen

Old Armourer · Post by **Old Armourer** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 12:20 pm

For arms and armour, get a copy of Harold L. Peterson's book, "Arms and Armour in Colonial Armerica". As for costume, I will defer to someone with more knowledge than me, however, Carl Kohler's book, "A History of Costume", is pretty good...

Gwen · Post by **Gwen** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 3:55 pm

Good for what- a doorstop? :wink:

Seriously, Kohler's book is -very- out of date-, but some of his speculative patterns are good for a giggle. A much better reference for this period and place would be "Hispanic Costume 1480-1530 by Ruth Matilda Anderson, ISBN: 0875351263

I think the Amazon review says it all-

"Hispanic Costume, 1480-1530" is a beautifully organized and thorough study of the costume of Spain during this period. The text and illustrations work very well together, but the arrangement of the illustrations is just outstanding. Ms. Anderson uses close-up photos of paintings, sculpture and actual costume items from the period, all organized by costume item (e.g., Women's shoes, men's cloaks). The reader experiences the rare treat of seeing several representations of the same type of item on the same page -- I can't think of a better way to gain a good visual understanding of the characteristics of various elements of costume in a single period."

Looks like Amazon will have it after Christmas; http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... 9?v=glance

Gwen

T. Finkas · Post by **T. Finkas** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 4:06 pm

Why not do a costume based on the Spanish Armada period? Your new morion would be perfect for that.

Cheers,
Tim

Fire Stryker · Post by **Fire Stryker** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 8:41 am

I guess it largely depends on which part of the "Conquest", North or South America.

If folks refer to the Aztecs, then you have early 1500s, if you are talking the Incas with Pizzaro, then it's late 1500s (1570s). The goal would be to get a good idea of when and where the morion is from, then determine if Alcega's book is helpful.

The book that Gwen talks about sounds really nice.

Gwyneth · Post by **Gwyneth** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 9:07 am

Just a clarification - the original poster said "late 1500s", so I mentioned the Alcega book. Of course, that begs the question "how late is late", which is why I said approximately. Also, the 1589 book is Alcega's *second* edition. The first publishing license for the book was approved in 1579, and it was first published in 1580. It can be assumed that it took at least a year to put together, so the patterns would more accurately date from approximately 1578. Sorry for the earlier confusion.

And yes, the conversion tables are great, but not terribly useful to folks here in the States used to thinking in inches. Alcega actually addresses the problem of conversion and tells us that if you use anything other than Castilian ells, you will need to cut the pattern differently. The commentary is nearly as interesting and useful as the patterns!

I also came across the Anderson book - boy do I know what I'm doing with my Christmas money!

Gwyneth
usually a 14th c. geek

Gwen · Post by **Gwen** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 1:35 pm

Sorry- I was reading fast and saw "1500" and "spanish conquest of america", registered that as 1530-40 because I've done some Cortez/Cabrillo museum work from that period and posted a quick reply.

If you're going late don't forget the venerable Janet Arnold's "Patterns of Fashion: The Cut and Construction of Clothes for Men and Women C1560-1620"

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... ce&s=books

I see it's now available for an obscenely low $35- I think I paid almost $100 for mine when it first came out. *sigh*

Didn't mean to confuse anyone- I'll go back to wrapping presents now! :oops:

Gwen

Jenn- the Anderson book is absolutely faboo!

Hugo de Stonham · Post by **Hugo de Stonham** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 7:10 am

Colonial it is then. I will be looking all the books up to put together an acruate outfit. I thank you all for your replys.

Grendal

Gwyneth · Post by **Gwyneth** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 9:14 am

Grendal -

In looking for more modern patterns, I noticed that Kass McGann is coming out with a men's 1680-1600 doublet pattern, as well as a pattern for breeches, in late 2005. These patterns may be a little easier for you to start with than the Alcega book, unless you are already an experienced tailor.

http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/pa ... gsoon.html
(about halfway down the page)

Don't know if you want to wait that long to get started on your outfit, but thought I'd at least give you the info!

Gwyneth

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:40 am

Janet Arnold's book also has patterns taken from the actual garments. They're drawn on a grid so they're easy to scale up. We used those patterns to reconstruct a man's outfit for Ft. Caroline in Florida and they turned out -fantastic-. I can highly recommend Janet Arnold's book!

Gwen

Hugo de Stonham · Post by **Hugo de Stonham** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:29 pm

I'm probably going to start simple. A basic foot soldiers outfit seems simple enough.

I also found this page of patterns, are they any good?
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/calderon/clothing.htm

Grendal

Hugo de Stonham · Post by **Hugo de Stonham** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 4:28 pm

Was there any colonial armour smiths at that time or did the blacksmiths make the armour?

Grendal

brewer · Post by **brewer** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 5:17 pm

So far as I can tell, arms and armour for military use were imported from the home country. Some things were made in situ, but these extremely early colonies were by no means self-sufficient.

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 5:29 pm

Fire Stryker wrote:... if you are talking the Incas with Pizzaro, then it's late 1500s (1570s).

!? ( You might want to check that in a book....)

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 7:23 pm

I also found this page of patterns, are they any good?
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/calderon/clothing.htm

Depends on how historical you want to be. If you want a costume to go with your helmet they'll probably do. Although they list good references, all of their patterns are based on those in the Winter/Savoy book which is strictly low end and 20 year old RenFaire (as I recall the Winter/Savoy book was published in the 70's). Like I said in a recent post elsewhere, clothing for "historical interpretation" runs the gamut from achingly gorgeous to horrifying. In my opinion, the patterns on that site would yield garments that range from :roll:

to

. I can't even imagine what a shirt made of 6 yards of linen would look like. Even my 16th C. chemises only take 5 yards.

If you want historical clothing that's based on real garments to go with your helmet you'll probably want to pass the suggestions on that website by and go straight to either Arnold or Alcega.

Just my opinion-

Gwen

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 7:44 pm

Black Swan Designs wrote:If you want historical clothing that's based on real garments to go with your helmet you'll probably want to pass the suggestions on that website by and go straight to either Arnold or Alcega.

Have to agree with Gwen on this. That site is fairly weak, they don't even have a doublet pattern. I have both Arnold and Alcega, they are the real deal.

Also if Kass gets her patterns out use those, I know she will base the patterns of the real deal too.

Hugo de Stonham · Post by **Hugo de Stonham** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 7:52 pm

Ok, now I need to know what a basic foot soldier would wear and what weapons and armour would be used.

Grendal

Charlotte J · Post by **Charlotte J** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:05 pm

James B. wrote:
Black Swan Designs wrote:If you want historical clothing that's based on real garments to go with your helmet you'll probably want to pass the suggestions on that website by and go straight to either Arnold or Alcega.

Have to agree with Gwen on this. That site is fairly weak, they don't even have a doublet pattern. I have both Arnold and Alcega, they are the real deal.

Also if Kass gets her patterns out use those, I know she will base the patterns of the real deal too.

Wouldn't Kass's patterns be too late, as they're 17th century?

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 1:24 am

1560-70 arquebusier
Costume to be used by historical interpreter
Ft. Caroline National Monument, Jacksonville, FL
http://www.nps.gov/foca/
Delivered 11-2000

Intended to represent a "typical" French soldier inhabiting the fort circa 1560-70

[img]http://64.227.204.66/he/imgs/1560arquebusier.jpg[/img]

[img]http://64.227.204.66/he/imgs/1560arquebusier-detail.jpg[/img]

Details:Patterns for the doublet and paned hose are based on Italian man's suit in Janet Arnold. Shirt pattern taken from boy's shirt of 1540 in the V&A. Doublet, paned slops and hose are wool, shirt is linen. Sword is a prop from Museum Reps, Jeff made all the leather and hardware. Apostles are modified by Jeff but originally came from Black Rose Creations (used to be SykeÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s Sutlery); bandolier and shot bag by Jeff. I did all the construction.

Gwen

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:04 am

Charlotte wrote:Wouldn't Kass's patterns be too late, as they're 17th century?

I believe her 16th century patterns on the coming soon page would fit what he wants. Not the English Civil War patterns.

Hugo de Stonham · Post by **Hugo de Stonham** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 7:37 pm

I thought that the basic foot soldier would be a little more raged. Say, Diry white shirt, leather vest, brown breeches, and what ever els he inherited or owend wouldn't be much.

Am I wrong?

Grendal

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:21 pm

As I recall (and it was 4 years ago that I did the research for this) the French sent a party to settle Florida so they could cash in on the New World the way the Spanish were. The colony only lasted a year and a half or so before the Spanish came and crashed the party. I believe the idea was to portray a professional soldier who hadn't been there too long (i.e. long enough to look ragged in this wild outpost). He was to be clothed in French style, not too fancy but as a proper military representative of the King of France. He's wearing subdued and inexpensive colours and the trimming is very simple.

Honestly, I don't know what a "common foot soldier" would wear, because I'm not sure I know what that is. It's my understanding that by this period these were professional soldiers who were paid competative wages. There were laundresses attached to armies, so I don't know why he'd have to be dirty. I think they would only be dirty and ragged if they were on a long campaign that wasn't going well. Although later, the scenes in Russia durng the winter from "The Duellists" springs to mind. Regardless of class or state of decay, "vests" were not part of the wardrobe, so I don't think they'd be wearing them. Maybe someone who knows more about the military history of this period could help you out.

I'd venture that the basic shapes of the clothing would be the same- as I recall I looked at lots of images of soldiers from the period and this was the sillhouette. To my mind at worst "common soldier" would mean rougher wool with less detail perhaps, but the same basic outline.

Gwen

Ziad · Post by **Ziad** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 10:07 pm

An historical note - recent archaeological investigation has found the probable location of Fort San Juan (IIRC) approximately 80 miles east of Asheville, NC. The fort only existed for about two years - 1566-1568. But this would be the perfect time for this getup - look it up through Archaeology Magazine online.

Z