First Hauberk finished - advice sought

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 11:33 am

Ok, this is my first attempt at a shirt and since I am not in the SCA, I have some "functionality" questions. This shirt weighs 35 pounds. It's for a 6'1", 179 pound person. Is this too much weight for someone that size to cart around? (I realize that a riveted shirt would weigh less)

I loosely modeled this shirt after one that is in a museum, and I can't tell from the museum picture if the shirt has slits or not. The picture is too dark, and lightening it up only makes it blurry, but it appears that the museum shirt does not have slits in the front. Has anyone actually seen this museum shirt? I think it's in the Cleveland Museum of (Art?). I'd like to know if it has slits in the sides.

Anyway, I would appreciate your comments.

Thanks!
Cat

Edit: The shirt is mid-thigh length.

[img]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-6/747695/FinishedHauberk.JPG[/img]

[img]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-6/747695/HauberkWithCollarFromMuseumEnlarged.JPG[/img]

Strongbow · Post by **Strongbow** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 12:25 pm

My old butted mail shirt weighed in at 40 lbs. It was HEAVY, but not unwearable. I wore it through 3 Pennsics. The key was a decent aketeon to absorb impact and a good belt to take some of the weight off the shoulders.

So if your client wants butted mail, he should be able to wear it.

Your tailoring is beautiful.... you should consider doing custom rivetted shirts.

More accurate AND lighter. Combined with your construction, you'd have more commisions than you could handle.

Strongbow

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 12:45 pm

Strongbow,
Thank you very much! I appreciate that more than you know! That makes me feel alot better about this shirt. I thought it looked kinda weird, but things always do on a mannequin I guess.

I do want to learn to make riveted, but I lack the tools, and I missed out on some that someone was selling the other day

. If I buy premade rings and rivets, I will not be able to compete in price with the Indian made maille. More than likely, a shirt like this would cost about twice as much as an Indian one if I bought the rings. Plus, given the fact that this is my first one, I doubt anyone would be willing to put up that much money for a shirt done by someone with almost no experience, and I would feel bad for asking. Maybe in time I will get some riveting supplies and learn to do it, then maybe make another shirt or two. After that, I might feel more comfortable listing them for sale.

Thanks again!
Cat

DAVID01 · Post by **DAVID01** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 12:57 pm

WoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooW! I have to have the pattern for that. I REALLY like the Neck

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 2:07 pm

Meaddrinker,
Thank you for your nice comments!

The collar was actually easier than I thought it was going to be. The "hard" part was getting the rough neck opening the right size. I had to re do it a couple times to get it to the proper circumference.

The collar on my shirt is made in kingsmaille (8 in 2 weave), but on the museum shirt it is probably made using smaller rings than the rest of the shirt is comprised of. To make the collar, you first have to convert the direction of the maille. If you would like directions for doing this, send me an email and I will get you the instructions I used.

Here is a close up picture of the collar:

[img]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-6/747695/collarCloseup.JPG[/img]

Thanks again,
Cat

DAVID01 · Post by **DAVID01** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 2:14 pm

My gosh Cat, that is beautiful! I have never seen a collar on maille like this.

Strongbow · Post by **Strongbow** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 2:37 pm

Cat wrote:Strongbow,
Thank you very much! I appreciate that more than you know! That makes me feel alot better about this shirt. I thought it looked kinda weird, but things always do on a mannequin I guess.

My pleasure, your work is great!

I do want to learn to make riveted, but I lack the tools, and I missed out on some that someone was selling the other day .

Keep an eye on the classifieds here at and at the Sword Forum. I got my tools from the SFI classifieds.

Also, Steve at Forth Armory sometimes has the tools, so keep an eye out there.

If I buy premade rings and rivets, I will not be able to compete in price with the Indian made maille. More than likely, a shirt like this would cost about twice as much as an Indian one if I bought the rings.

Well, your market niche isn't really the same. You'd be selling to folks who wanted the armor made for THEM, not generic shirts. Plus, you'd be able to make stuff the Indian makers won't touch, like fitted rivetted mail chausses, those funky 15th century shirts with the crotch flaps. There IS a market. You could EVEN make shirts with different size rings (say, 8mm ID for the squishy bits, 9.5 mm ID for skirt, sleeves), more like the real thing. Oh yeah, brass rivetted ring trim. Very posh.

There IS a market.

Plus, given the fact that this is my first one, I doubt anyone would be willing to put up that much money for a shirt done by someone with almost no experience, and I would feel bad for asking. Maybe in time I will get some riveting supplies and learn to do it, then maybe make another shirt or two. After that, I might feel more comfortable listing them for sale.

Well, just show propestive clients these pics, and tell them to imagine it in rivetted rings! Rivetting rings isn't hard. You can learn to do well in a couple hundred rings. Heck, I'd be willing to front you a couple hundred rings to learn on!

Thanks again!
Cat

My pleasure.

Strongbow

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 5:37 pm

Strongbow, thst is a very generous offer. I may take you up on that when I get a couple of my current projects finished.

Thank you also for the "niche" ideas. I hadn't really thought of it that way. Those are some very good ideas!

Thank you very much!
Cat

Godin21 · Post by **Godin21** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 5:51 pm

Beautiful job on the shirt! And thank you for the pictures of the collar. I'm currently working on adding one to my shirt and have stalled while trying to picture it all in my head. Your pictures helped tons!

My butted shirt is weighing in at around 30 lbs currently, and only lands mid thigh, but has long sleeves. Your shirts sounds about right.

Edit: oh, I wanted to ask about your shoulder seam. I"d love to see a pic of it if that's cool. It looks like what I figured out for mine, but it's hard to tell at that distance. Can you put a close up shot of that up? I appreciate it.

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 5:57 pm

Godin21,

Thank you very much!

This is the only one I have yet made, but I would be happy to help if you need it. Send me an email and I will explain how I went about it.

Cat

Rygar · Post by **Rygar** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 8:39 pm

That is one very snifty collar Cat! I really like all the pics I've seen of your stuff.

Hope you can make it to the Ohio Maille Gathering this year. I'd love to see some of your maille up close and meet you IRL.

BTW, If you don't mind, I'd like to borrow that collar design. It would look very nice on the next shirt that I build.

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 8:55 pm

Rygar,

Thank you very much! Go right ahead and borrow it, I don't mind. I will also help you with it if you like. From the questions I have received here and in email form, I'm betting you will start to see more shirts with collars.

I think they look pretty nice, too, AND they are historically accurate (BONUS). I have no idea how comfortable they are, though. I would try this one on but I think it would squish me. It's almost exactly 1/4 my weight and I couldn't even get it up on the mannequin by myself. Hmmm, I wonder if I could get "workers comp" if I injure myself lifting heavy maille?

Anyway, where is the Ohio Maille Gathering? I am pretty new to making maille (about 11 months now) and have never been to anything like that. I would love to go, but I'm afraid I would have nothing to show as I ship out everything I make. Since I'm not in the SCA, I don't need any for myself, so I don't have anything. Besides, I'm a weakling and it's all too heavy for me

. If I ever DID get into the SCA, I would have to wear the dreaded "plastic" just to be able to move around without suffering serious injury.

Thanks again!
Cat

William of Otterton · Post by **William of Otterton** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 9:02 pm

Excellent work Cat. Quite inspiring.

Have you given any consideration for more "dress" pieces made out of a lighter metal/alloy? Something like bright aluminum comes to mind for someone who would want more of a show piece rather than a basically combat-capable shirt. Likewise, I'm sure you'd find it easier to work with. I'm not a fan of galvanized steel from all the ruboff that the zinc creates.

Nice coifs on your site too.

-GdS-

Nick D · Post by **Nick D** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 9:10 pm

Beautiful!! I'm thinking I'll be using that collar design on the rivetted shirt I'm working on right now. I won't be able to use smaller rings, or use kingsmaille like yours, though, due to ring size.

One question, why did you choose a 90 degree seam on your sleeves? It's hard to tell from the picture, but it looks like the sleeves on the museum piece are 90 degree sleeves, without any seam across the shoulders. Was it for comfort, mobility, or just a stylistic decision?

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 10:04 pm

Griffin,
Thank you!

Yes I have thought about aluminum, but it would raise the cost of my pieces significantly, plus I sell most (really ALL) of my pieces through the Archive, and galvy is a stretch here, so I don't know how well aluminum would sell. If I had another venue to sell in, like a Renn Faire or something, I probably could sell just about anything and at better prices.

(As it is, I make about $1.50 an hour for most of my pieces, so if anyone knows of a good online venue, I'd love to hear about it.

)

Nick,
Thank you also!

I'm thinking you might have problems with the collar if you make it in the same size rings as the rest of the shirt. I'm guessing that it will probably slouch, but I could be wrong. What about a 6 in 1 weave for the collar? I don't know if it would help much, but it may help some. I guess you could also sew in a piece of leather to help it stand up, plus that would probably be more comfortable than just plain maille.

As for the sleeves, I chose to do them that way simply because of functionality. I might be wrong, but it seemed to me that this type of sleeve would allow for more freedom of movement, since the maille now stretches in the same direction as the arm muscles. I don't know how historically accurate it is though.

Cat

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 3:27 am

I have an update on the shirt. The customer requested slits, and I just finished them so here is an updated picture. Thanks again for all of the interest and very nice comments!

[img]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-6/747695/FinishedShirtWithSlits.jpg[/img]

Cat

DAVID01 · Post by **DAVID01** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:16 pm

Cat, How much would this shirt cost to have you make one? :mrgreen:

Mike Garrett (Orc) · Post by **Mike Garrett (Orc)** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:38 pm

Cat - very nice work - I particularly like the neck also.
Weight - I have a knee length, short-sleeved butted hauberk - made from square section sping steel washers (closed to be butted). Weighs in about 50 pound! ( I'm 6 feet & about 190 ) It's heavy, but VERY tough! never lost a link has been stab tested, full force, with combat knives with me in it - not a parted link! So I live with the weight! You get used to it. Longest I ever wore it in one stretch was about 12 hours for BBC documentary shoot. Boy did I feel floaty light when I took it off! The coif weighs another 8 pounds I think.
Really like what I've seen of your work and on your site. Give spring steel washers a go! The come ready formed into rings, but you have to open some up slightly to knit it. Then close as normal (I didn't make mine - no patience for mail!). You need two pairs of sturdy pliers mind

(And you'll get a real good lower arm workout!)

Strongbow · Post by **Strongbow** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 1:04 pm

Cat wrote:Strongbow, thst is a very generous offer. I may take you up on that when I get a couple of my current projects finished.

Thank you also for the "niche" ideas. I hadn't really thought of it that way. Those are some very good ideas!

Thank you very much!
Cat

Please do! Just PM here on the archive when you're ready and we'll set it up.

Strongbow

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 4:27 pm

Meaddrinker,
Since this is my first one, and since it has yet to be tried on by the person I made it for, I have not really given any thought as to how much I would charge. I don't even know if I will make any more, at least in butted rings. Considering that this thing was so heavy, I can't see them being very practical. I may wait until I am set up for riveted to make another one. Really it all depends on how the shirt fits and functions. If it doesn't fit him properly, I will need to re work the patterns, and that will take time and research. Right now I've got several orders, so I don't really have the time. If it fits him properly, I will consider making another one, but it will still be sort of a trial thing. I could've just gotten lucky with the first one, and may bomb on the second.

Mr. Orc,
Thank you very much! 50 pounds??? I tried on this shirt when it weighed about 22 pounds and I thought I was going to pass out! I wouldn't even be able to lift something like that! I bet that's the kind of armour that you could put on, then stand there while your opponent wears himself out beating on you. Then all you have to do is tag him when he falls to the ground exhausted.

Strongbow,
I certainly will! Thank you very much!

Cat

DAVID01 · Post by **DAVID01** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 4:38 pm

I don't see how you could bomb. This is one of the nicest shirts I have seen and you said you are new at maille. I have looked at a lot of maille and none better than yours. You now how they say he or she is a natural? Well there ya go.

Mike Garrett (Orc) · Post by **Mike Garrett (Orc)** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 5:00 pm

Cat -

I can't run that fast in it but when I get going it's hard to stop me!
(Jumping on someones back works a treat too....especially if they're already wearing plate say :twisted:

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 5:10 pm

Meaddrinker,
Wow, I don't know what to say. Thank you! I still feel like I haven't quite got things "down" so to speak. I am still very critical of my work and feel I definitely have room for improvement. I am also still very nervous each time I send a piece out. I'm so afraid they won't like it, or it won't fit right. I hope that goes away in time.

Thanks again!
Cat

Mike Garrett (Orc) · Post by **Mike Garrett (Orc)** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 5:12 pm

Couple of pics of mine (sans coif)

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 5:34 pm

Orc,
That looks REALLY nice! Very clean closures on that! It also looks much denser than mine. Those are some very thick washers!

Thanks for posting that!

Cat

Mike Garrett (Orc) · Post by **Mike Garrett (Orc)** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 5:50 pm

Yeah - it is a tight weave (photo is two thicknesses mind).
Washers are about 8mm ID and have approx 1mm square section. I've tried knitting mail with these and it's darn hard work. Makes a VERY strong butted mail though. Personally I back mine for strength against a riveted one.....but not for lightness or authenticity

I definitely think that the fact that the washers are square sectioned helps it lie nicely, if you get what I mean.

Rygar · Post by **Rygar** » Sun Jan 23, 2005 2:04 pm

Cat wrote:Rygar,

........where is the Ohio Maille Gathering? I am pretty new to making maille (about 11 months now) and have never been to anything like that. I would love to go, but I'm afraid I would have nothing to show as I ship out everything I make. Since I'm not in the SCA, I don't need any for myself, so I don't have anything. Besides, I'm a weakling and it's all too heavy for me . If I ever DID get into the SCA, I would have to wear the dreaded "plastic" just to be able to move around without suffering serious injury.

Thanks again!
Cat

Hehe, I'm not in the SCA either, but would love to join. Unfortunately, the only groups close to me are about an hour or so drive, one way, and between work and family I don't have the time right now to invest. (I tend to have an addictive personality to fun things like that!

)

As for the Maillers Gathering, It's in Chillicothe Ohio. (about an 45min-1 hour due south of Columbus). Short and sweet of it, maillers from all over come and the details can be found in the gatherings rooms of the maille boards. Or, you can follow the links on my website http://users.adelphia.net/~chainreaction, which hasn't been updated to say '2005' yet, but the info is still good. Lots of pics from previous years on there to browse through. (That part is hosted on a bravenet site, and they don't have much bandwidth allowance. I apologize if it runs out before you can see it. I'm working on finding a better host.)

It's open to any and all who have an interest in maille or would like to learn. I didn't post an announcement to this board because the focus in mainly on SCA and hammered armour, not too much maille. I didn't think many folks would be interested since I'm not in the SCA or post much here, although I have learned a ton from the good people here!

If you, or anyone else for that matter, have any question, feel free to drop me an email and I'll do my best to answer them.

Hope you will be able to make it!

AaronT · Post by **AaronT** » Sun Jan 23, 2005 7:10 pm

I have seen some Cats work up close, it is truly beautiful. The craftsmanship is immpeccable, she is truly an atisan and a natural at her craft.
I was going to say her chosen craft, but it might have chosen her as she takes to it like a falcon to the heavens.

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Sun Jan 23, 2005 8:41 pm

Rygar,
I will check that out. I live in Columbus, so it's not that far. The local SCA group here meets at OSU, and I haven't joined because it's a pain to find parking (need a permit) plus I really don't want to go walking around there at night by myself. I HAVE thought about it, though.

Thank you for the link!

Aaron,
Thank you so very much! I have yet to develope that kind of confidence in myself, but that may improve a little if the shirt actually fits. ( I hope I hope I hope...)

Cat

crazysaxon · Post by **crazysaxon** » Sun Jan 23, 2005 8:49 pm

nice work cat, i frustrated myself for hours trying to do kings mail. your work is very very pretty

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Sun Jan 23, 2005 8:53 pm

Crazysaxon,
Thank you very much!

The key to kingsmaille is doing it as you go. It's a total pain in the arse to try to go back and double up the rings after you have already woven the 4 in 1. Also, you need to make sure your ID is large enough for it.

Thanks again!
Cat

First Hauberk finished - advice sought

First Hauberk finished - advice sought

Re: First Hauberk finished - advice sought