Just discovered Magyars in my 'European History' class, and I want to know more! Anyone (Hi Russ) have any recommended books or journal articles? English only please, focusing on the 10th century for starters. Thanks in advance,
~Wil
Suggested Book List?- 10th century Magyars
Moderator: Glen K
Suggested Book List?- 10th century Magyars
"The teeth are spears and arrows, and the tongue is a sharp sword'- St. Bernard of Clairveaux
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Russ Mitchell
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Five years ago I would have said that you were screwed. The Magyars are almost completely ignored in English-language scholarship, and when they're not ignored, what's printed is usually a bunch of ignorant bullshit. It's even worse, if you can believe it, than trying to find something about the Kievan states or Poland.
But, recently, several good works have come out. In your case, I'd suggest a couple of titles, because there are still multiple theories floating around for the timelines.
1. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/102-4374459-3286538 The Realm of Saint Stephen, by the late Pal Engel. A must-have. Covers a wider stretch than you're looking for, and doesn't touch much on the Neopolitan Succession Wars (did you know there were even more Hungarian mercs in Italy than Englishmen... often in the same companies?), but is basically up to date.
2. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/9639116483/qid=1106759167/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl14/102-4374459-3286538?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 Hungarians and Europe in the Early Middle Ages, by Rona Tas, Andras. You need this one. Covers various theories of the Conquest Era. Don't recall if it goes into the difference between the Gyula and the Kende, but it will still give you a pretty decent idea of what was going on.
3. Online, you can find Leo the Wise's .... crap, brain fart... Egfroth can tell you the name of the workd off the top of his head. De Administrando Imperii? It's available in translation, and helps to set the geopolitical context that is so frequently lacking. The fall of the Khazar Kaganate has vast implications for the history of Europe, and while this doesn't go into that specifically, it'll tell you who the players are.
4. Check the works-cited list for Engel. You'll want to let your fingers do the walking, and ILL is your friend. The first two are spendy, but worth it.
But, recently, several good works have come out. In your case, I'd suggest a couple of titles, because there are still multiple theories floating around for the timelines.
1. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/102-4374459-3286538 The Realm of Saint Stephen, by the late Pal Engel. A must-have. Covers a wider stretch than you're looking for, and doesn't touch much on the Neopolitan Succession Wars (did you know there were even more Hungarian mercs in Italy than Englishmen... often in the same companies?), but is basically up to date.
2. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/9639116483/qid=1106759167/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl14/102-4374459-3286538?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 Hungarians and Europe in the Early Middle Ages, by Rona Tas, Andras. You need this one. Covers various theories of the Conquest Era. Don't recall if it goes into the difference between the Gyula and the Kende, but it will still give you a pretty decent idea of what was going on.
3. Online, you can find Leo the Wise's .... crap, brain fart... Egfroth can tell you the name of the workd off the top of his head. De Administrando Imperii? It's available in translation, and helps to set the geopolitical context that is so frequently lacking. The fall of the Khazar Kaganate has vast implications for the history of Europe, and while this doesn't go into that specifically, it'll tell you who the players are.
4. Check the works-cited list for Engel. You'll want to let your fingers do the walking, and ILL is your friend. The first two are spendy, but worth it.
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Russ Mitchell
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Egfroth
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The book is De Administrando Imperio by Emperor Constantine VII Porphyogenitus and is available from Dumbarton Oaks (see their address in the thread on this forum called "Byzantium".
Using the (very sparse) sources available to me at the time, some years ago I put together a brief overview of the Magyars, which you can see at http://www.geocities.com/egfrothos/magyars/magyars.html I never got around to putting the pictures up on-line (but they weren't very good anyway). The references at the end might help, but the ones Russ mentions would probably be better anyway.
Using the (very sparse) sources available to me at the time, some years ago I put together a brief overview of the Magyars, which you can see at http://www.geocities.com/egfrothos/magyars/magyars.html I never got around to putting the pictures up on-line (but they weren't very good anyway). The references at the end might help, but the ones Russ mentions would probably be better anyway.
Egfroth
It's not really armour if you haven't bled on it.
It's not really armour if you haven't bled on it.
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Russ Mitchell
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There's some dated stuff in there, but all in all it's pretty good. The big changes that would interest an SCA guy would be that the farming took place FAR earlier than previously thought, and it's now certain that widespread animal breeding pretty much came after the Mongols. (For the best description of the Mongol campaign I've ever seen, read "The Tatar Khan's Englishman.")
Otherwise, for SCA purposes, the Hungarians had a core of lancers who were heavily armored. These were supplemented by light and medium cavalry. With one in 8/10 or so going off to war, you had a contingent of very heavily equipped folks, and then lots of "medium cav," and then the light guys. The lightly-equipped guys you read of are typically the forces of the "gyula," and are light because of the role they're playing, as opposed to the classically-used lancers at teh Sajo river battle where the Byz spanked them so badly.
Otherwise, for SCA purposes, the Hungarians had a core of lancers who were heavily armored. These were supplemented by light and medium cavalry. With one in 8/10 or so going off to war, you had a contingent of very heavily equipped folks, and then lots of "medium cav," and then the light guys. The lightly-equipped guys you read of are typically the forces of the "gyula," and are light because of the role they're playing, as opposed to the classically-used lancers at teh Sajo river battle where the Byz spanked them so badly.
Russ Mitchell wrote:
1. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/102-4374459-3286538 The Realm of Saint Stephen, by the late Pal Engel. A must-have.
The school library has a copy of this, I'll be sure to check it out tomorrow
Our library also has these:
"From Hunyadi to Rákóczi : war and society in late medieval and early modern Hungary / edited by János M. Bak, Béla K. Király"
"A History of Hungary : millennium in Central Europe / László Kontler"
"Hungarian society in the 9th and 10th centuries / by Antal Bartha ; [translated by K. Balázs] "
"The Magyars in the ninth century/Macartney, C. A." (This was written in 1930, so...)
"The Hungarians cross the Carpathians / István Dienes ; [translated by Barna Balogh ; revised by Paul Aston.]"
"Sons of Nimrod : the origin of Hungarians / by Anthony Endrey"
Are any of these REALLY horrible, avoid-at-all-costs sources?
Russ Mitchell wrote:(did you know there were even more Hungarian mercs in Italy than Englishmen... often in the same companies?), but is basically up to date.
I don't know anything about Hungarians or Magyars. The prof has structured his lecture around the idea that the three Carolingian kingdoms suffered a period of weakness in the 10th century from two sources- baronial in-fighting, and external pressure from the Spanish Muslims, Vikings and Magyars. I'm familiar with the Muslims in Spain and the Vikings, so I was a bit surprised to see him giving the Magyars, a people I'd heard little about, equal footing with these other two groups. I read Egfroth's excellent article and a couple other short articles online, and decided to pursue this a bit more.
Russ Mitchell wrote:2. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/9639116483/qid=1106759167/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl14/102-4374459-3286538?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 Hungarians and Europe in the Early Middle Ages, by Rona Tas, Andras. You need this one.
I just submitted my electronic ILL request, so it should be here about 2007
Thanks for your help, TTYL
~Wil
"The teeth are spears and arrows, and the tongue is a sharp sword'- St. Bernard of Clairveaux
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Russ Mitchell
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"From Hunyadi to Rákóczi : war and society in late medieval and early modern Hungary / edited by János M. Bak, Béla K. Király"
-> I studied under Janos Bak, and know Bela quite well. This isn't for you, but it's interesting if institutional and economic histories are good for you.
"A History of Hungary : millennium in Central Europe / László Kontler"
-> Excellent. Too late for you. Kontler is a god.
"Hungarian society in the 9th and 10th centuries / by Antal Bartha ; [translated by K. Balázs] "
-> Don't know it. My wife says that it's dated, and you need to buy a copy of the catalog of the Hungarian national museum "The Conquest-Era Hungarians," which has a quick social history that is up to date (as well as lots of pretty bling-bling).
"The Magyars in the ninth century/Macartney, C. A." (This was written in 1930, so...)
-> ??
-> Probably awful.
"The Hungarians cross the Carpathians / István Dienes ; [translated by Barna Balogh ; revised by Paul Aston.]"
-> Good, but BADLY dated.
"Sons of Nimrod : the origin of Hungarians / by Anthony Endrey"
-> Complete and utter b.s.... avoid at all costs. Posits, based on bad historiography and worse linguistics, that the Hungarians are the descendants of the Sumerians. This bastard's work is worse than Daniken... I actually quit the magyar SCA list, partially because of some wench with "list princess" syndrome, but also b/c folks kept insisting that this thesis was legit, and I was tired of fighting about it.
I don't know anything about Hungarians or Magyars. The prof has structured his lecture around the idea that the three Carolingian kingdoms suffered a period of weakness in the 10th century from two sources- baronial in-fighting, and external pressure from the Spanish Muslims, Vikings and Magyars. I'm familiar with the Muslims in Spain and the Vikings, so I was a bit surprised to see him giving the Magyars, a people I'd heard little about, equal footing with these other two groups. I read Egfroth's excellent article and a couple other short articles online, and decided to pursue this a bit more.
The thing is, that the Magyars keep being portrayed as similar to the Mongols, whereas they're really much more like the Saxons... they were invited in to do weak peoples' dirty work, and then hung around longer and stronger than their employers hoped... most of these "raids" were actually a case of them being hired by one party to do in another.
I just submitted my electronic ILL request, so it should be here about 2007
If you're actually interested, screw that: go buy it. You'll learn more about Eastern Europe than you thought there was to know.
-> I studied under Janos Bak, and know Bela quite well. This isn't for you, but it's interesting if institutional and economic histories are good for you.
"A History of Hungary : millennium in Central Europe / László Kontler"
-> Excellent. Too late for you. Kontler is a god.
"Hungarian society in the 9th and 10th centuries / by Antal Bartha ; [translated by K. Balázs] "
-> Don't know it. My wife says that it's dated, and you need to buy a copy of the catalog of the Hungarian national museum "The Conquest-Era Hungarians," which has a quick social history that is up to date (as well as lots of pretty bling-bling).
"The Magyars in the ninth century/Macartney, C. A." (This was written in 1930, so...)
-> ??
-> Probably awful.
"The Hungarians cross the Carpathians / István Dienes ; [translated by Barna Balogh ; revised by Paul Aston.]"
-> Good, but BADLY dated.
"Sons of Nimrod : the origin of Hungarians / by Anthony Endrey"
-> Complete and utter b.s.... avoid at all costs. Posits, based on bad historiography and worse linguistics, that the Hungarians are the descendants of the Sumerians. This bastard's work is worse than Daniken... I actually quit the magyar SCA list, partially because of some wench with "list princess" syndrome, but also b/c folks kept insisting that this thesis was legit, and I was tired of fighting about it.
I don't know anything about Hungarians or Magyars. The prof has structured his lecture around the idea that the three Carolingian kingdoms suffered a period of weakness in the 10th century from two sources- baronial in-fighting, and external pressure from the Spanish Muslims, Vikings and Magyars. I'm familiar with the Muslims in Spain and the Vikings, so I was a bit surprised to see him giving the Magyars, a people I'd heard little about, equal footing with these other two groups. I read Egfroth's excellent article and a couple other short articles online, and decided to pursue this a bit more.
The thing is, that the Magyars keep being portrayed as similar to the Mongols, whereas they're really much more like the Saxons... they were invited in to do weak peoples' dirty work, and then hung around longer and stronger than their employers hoped... most of these "raids" were actually a case of them being hired by one party to do in another.
Russ Mitchell wrote:2. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/9639116483/qid=1106759167/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl14/102-4374459-3286538?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 Hungarians and Europe in the Early Middle Ages, by Rona Tas, Andras. You need this one.
I just submitted my electronic ILL request, so it should be here about 2007
If you're actually interested, screw that: go buy it. You'll learn more about Eastern Europe than you thought there was to know.