Another Troy question

[Stefan ap Llewelyn]

In the scene where Hector is armouring up. He puts his grieves on with straps.

My fiance's brother told me this is incorrect and in that period there were no straps, they relied on the flex of the metal to open and close the grieve (which was therefore fully enclosing).

Also Hector's helmet flex's when he takes it off. One person has told me that this is a movie gaff but someone else said that the helmet would most likely be made of leather (at least sections of it) and the film is correct.

Can anyone confirm either of these points?

[T. Finkas]

Your brother-in-law-to-be is right when it comes to Classical Greaves but wrong when it comes to classical helmets. He is wrong when it comes to "Heroic Age" greaves, but partially right on that period's helmets.

In the scene where Hector is armouring up. He puts his grieves on with straps.

My fiance's brother told me this is incorrect and in that period there were no straps, they relied on the flex of the metal to open and close the grieve (which was therefore fully enclosing).?

During the time of the Trojan War, it is currently believed that warriors wore LINEN greaves with a smaller front plate out of bronze. Evidence takes the form of various vase paintings & frescos,
(example: http://www.varchive.org/schorr/warvase.htm )
...plus extant bronze front plates. The reconstructions I have seen show the front plate lacing on around the leg (back and foth across the back of the leg using eyelets or loops at the edge of the plate).

During Classical times, 1500 years later, the Greek armour takes the form we are most familiar with today. The dominant form of the Greek Hoplite's greaves are indeed made in one piece and nearly surround the calf, being split up the back. Being somewhat springy, they are donned by opening the back and "snapping" onto the leg. As you can imagine , this means the greave hase to be carefully fit to the individual.

Also Hector's helmet flex's when he takes it off. One person has told me that this is a movie gaff but someone else said that the helmet would most likely be made of leather (at least sections of it) and the film is correct.

The Classical era metal helms that most of the helms in Troy are patterned after would be a metal shell with a leather or felt liner. Some were thin enough to be flexible and some were not. Of course, they didn't quiver like rubber as the helms in the film Troy did.

But back to the REAL period of the Trojan War, a very popular helm was made of slices of boars tusks, laced sided to side in concentric rows around a cap of leather (or leather thongs). Presumably, this sort of helm would have some flex to it.

----

I thought the film presented a very pleasing material culture that was in the spirit of the Heroic Age of Greece. However, with respect to historical evidence, they made a hash of elemets from different periods (as Hollywood almost always does). I enjoyed the film immensely, but a part of me wishes they would have made the armour and weapons closer to correct for the Trojan War period.

You can see a lot of cool examples of this stuff on Matt Amt's various informative websites:

http://whoa.femail.com/hoplite/bronze.html

http://whoa.femail.com/hoplite/

Hope this helps (and that I have not done disservice to the facts),
Tim Finkas

[Matthew Amt]

Well, looks like you covered it all, Tim! Only thing for me to do is point out an apparent typo: the Classical era was at most 500 years after the Trojan War (possibly much less), not 1500. And thanks for the plug!

Leather and especially linen armor were known, but yes, bronze helmets and armor can flex. I didn't see the movie, but what bugs me most is when bronze armor (or any metal armor!) is shown as brown or gray or black. The whole point of using metal was to polish it up and shine like a god! The protective qualities were practically a side effect (well, I may be exaggerating just a tiny bit!).

By the way, Tim, I started my Kallithea greaves, and added more black stripes to my old linen greaves last night. Woo hoo!

Khairete,

Matthew

http://www.larp.com/hoplite/bronze.html

[T. Finkas]

You are a god, Matthew!


Perhaps I was thinking 1500 BC and messed up. Isn't that about right for the era of the Trojan War?

As far as the frequency of brown or grey armour in films goes, the reason I was told that they dull the armour is because highly ploished items are a problem to light, and they can reflect back things you should not see (i.e. camera, multiple bright lights, etc.). Chris Gilman, AA's resident movie armour maker/provider could speak with authority on this subject. I agree, it's a shame---alot is lost in not seeing the gleam.

Tim

[Dan Howard]

There is also the likelihood that Homer wasn't describing the armour used during the time of Troy VIIa (possible date of the Trojan War). Many believe that Homer is drawing uopn multiple sources to create his epic. How do you explain Hektor's shield? In two passages Homer specifically says it is circular - a "perfect circle". In another he says that the shield touches Hektor's neck and ankles when slung on his back. I've been looking for some time and can find no evidence for full height circular shields being used anywhere in the region. And have trouble imagining how it could be used in the combat described by Homer. Regarding greaves virtually every greave described in the Iliad is made of metal - either bronze (the majority) or tin (Achilles) or gold (the gods). They all have straps to fasten them to the leg. What isn't known is how common these greaves actually were during the period of Troy VIIa. There simply isn't enough evidence to draw an accurate picture. Regarding helmets: there are two or three mentions of leather helmets and one mention of a boar's tusk helmet in the Iliad. There are dozens of references to bronze helmets.

[Gerhard von Liebau]

*Cough*

And of course, no one links to MY greaves... Sheesh...

www.bronze-warrior.com/mycenaean.html

I should boot you bums from the BAC for that...

Also, Tim, the likely date for the Trojan War (leaving the argument about the Dark Ages out) would be about 1200-1150 BC.

-Gregory-

[T. Finkas]

Sorry, Gregory. I was just being lazy and shooting from the hip. Didn't mean to leave your site out.

Cheers,
Tim

[Gerhard von Liebau]

No problem, Tim. No offense taken!

Here's a blurred picture of the Pass Lueg helmet, being aproximately dated to the Trojan War era, but being from rather far away (Germany). Best example of the era, for sure, that's metal, at least!

The whole thing is very embossed, mainly with dots, and a couple of lines running along it's circumference.

-Gregory-

[Matthew Amt]

*Cough*

And of course, no one links to MY greaves... Sheesh...

www.bronze-warrior.com/mycenaean.html.

I should boot you bums from the BAC for that...

Works better with the period at the end of the URL, Captain Bligh.

Also, Tim, the likely date for the Trojan War (leaving the argument about the Dark Ages out) would be about 1200-1150 BC.

Unless the chronology is as screwed up as it might be, in which case it could be around 1000 BC or so.

I think the whole thing about shiny armor not working in movies is a load of bull. Seen Excalibur? Why would any director want THAT movie to make theirs look bad? There is a little shiny armor even in Gladiator (the charioteers), and it worked fine and looked good. If they're too worried about reflections, any satiny metallic color would be no problem. But they go to great lengths to make the colors all mottled brown. Heck, since most of the armor is plastic anyway, it's only a matter of grabbing a different can of spraypaint, and skipping the brown overcoat. Faster, cheaper, AND better. Movies are for making money, aren't they?

Khairete,

Matthew

[Gerhard von Liebau]

Works better with the period at the end of the URL, Captain Bligh.

Yeah, ummm... *Runs for edit button*.

What did you say?

I think the whole thing about shiny armor not working in movies is a load of bull. Seen Excalibur? Why would any director want THAT movie to make theirs look bad? There is a little shiny armor even in Gladiator (the charioteers), and it worked fine and looked good. If they're too worried about reflections, any satiny metallic color would be no problem.

I agree. I think we should all get together someday and have a big documentary on Bronze Age arms and armor made... That'd be sweet... We'll show all of those rustic-fans what warriors really wore!

By the way, even if you'll hate the movie for inaccuracies, you still should see Troy, for nothing else than being able to talk about it in conversations like this! It IS entertaining...

-Gregory-

[Felix Wang]

One could reasonably propose to use the military gear from any time between the proposed dates for the events of the Iliad, up to the era of its composition. That gives about 400 years of changes, which should cover a lot of variation.

[Dan Howard]

Regarding helmets: Homer specifically describes them several times as "hollow-eyed." To me that sounds like something resembling a Corinthian but there are no Corinthians dating to Troy VIIa

[T. Finkas]

...By the way, even if you'll hate the movie for inaccuracies, you still should see Troy, for nothing else than being able to talk about it in conversations like this! It IS entertaining...

-Gregory-

I really enjoyed the film and found I could easily forgive the innacuracies and just be entertained.

Cheers,
Tim

[Gerhard von Liebau]

I really enjoyed the film and found I could easily forgive the innacuracies and just be entertained.

Cheers,
Tim

Here, here! Especially the second time! The first time I was really tryin' to look at all of the armor and stuff, to find the inaccuracies. But, after I'd done that, and got to lay back and relax watching it, and was content with my "research", the film got a lot better!

-Gregory-

[Michael B]

For some nice metal greaves (from down here in Australia), see http://www.manningimperial.com/list.php?category_id=36&group_id=2

Craig has used cast aluminium forms moulded from his own and customers' legs to make them fit just right ...

[Gerhard von Liebau]

Michael, Craig certainly does swell greaves, but those are about 600 years later than the Trojan War era! Those are classical from the Iron age, about 500 BC.. We're talking Bronze Age, about 1200 BC.

[Michael B]

Michael, Craig certainly does swell greaves, but those are about 600 years later than the Trojan War era! Those are classical from the Iron age, about 500 BC.. We're talking Bronze Age, about 1200 BC.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, but they're just so damn shiny! (Plus he's a good friend so I like to name-drop ).

I also posted it as a bit of a follow on from Studbuckle's reference to greaves being worn in this way, ie.

During Classical times, 1500 years later, the Greek armour takes the form we are most familiar with today. The dominant form of the Greek Hoplite's greaves are indeed made in one piece and nearly surround the calf, being split up the back. Being somewhat springy, they are donned by opening the back and "snapping" onto the leg. As you can imagine , this means the greave hase to be carefully fit to the individual.

Cheers
Michael

[Gerhard von Liebau]

Oh, okay, just makin' sure you know...

I've always wanted to get another order from Craig. I currently have a bronze spearhead and buttspike on order from him, and I placed that order in July... I want to make another one, even though I haven't gotten the spear yet!

Such pretty, pretty stuff.

And yes, those are perfect examples of the type of greaves Timothy was talking about, to anyone else readin' around here!

Cheers!

-Gregory-

[RenJunkie]

Wasn't Achilles' greaves in the movie made of leather with possibly bronze plates on the front that laced up the back?

I thought it was an impressive movie (love Wolfgang flicks). I was a bit confused why they made it happen in 15 days tho. I mean they could have said "3 years later" or something...lol

I couldn't really judge the armor...I don't know enough about the armor of that period to judge it. Not the faintest clue about the Trojan armor (even tho it did look rater iron-like), but I thought it was pretty...lol Here's a question for Gregory and the Branze age peoples...What did they use for padding under their armor? I noticed they didn't wear anything for padding in the movie, or at least nothign my Medieval experience recognized.

At least the swords looked like bronze, and they fought mostly with spears. I love that a large part of the fighting, I think even the bulk was with the spear. That made me forgive everything else wrong with the movie...lol.

Christopher

[Karl]

[img]http://www.burggolling.at/bilder/dia/fruehges/Bilder/keltenhelm_jpg.jpg[/img]

[Gerhard von Liebau]

Karl, I'd like to start off by saying I love you! I've seen the rather odd one in the second image, but I've been unable to get a hold of the original thing in a picture, thank you!

Renjunkie, as far as we know, just like later Greeks, the Mycenaeans and their neighbors, as for most Bronze Age fighters, would have had no padding under their armor. We know of only a couple of pictures of "quilited" body armor being shown, ever, one which I'll attach here. But we don't have anything to say that it was worn under other armor.

The greaves were often linen in construction, rather like later linothoraxes (or, at least, that's the popular reconstruction method!) and may have been used underneath the bronze greaves like those found around Europe in several places. But, that's speculation, too. They had them, but as most Greek men wore some form of their linen greaves constantly, whether at war or on their knees tending to plants as far as I can gather, so, we can't say what they wore with them or not!

-Gregory-

[Matthew Amt]

Oooo, I love you, too, Karl! Thanks for posting those.

Gregory's right that there isn't any hard evidence about padding under the armor. Some helmets and armor pieces have little holes around the edges for a sewn-in lining, though, so our only guess is that any padding was part of that. That's what I did on my own cuirass, stitched a couple pieces of sheepskin to the leather lining in the shoulder area. Keeps the old body a little bit happier.

Khairete,

Matthew

[Gerhard von Liebau]

Haha...

Just as I came back in here I was thinking "Oh no, I forgot to mention lining!" knowing that you had already taken my glory before I could edit my post...

*Bah!*

-Gregory-

[Alcyoneus]

http://home.armourarchive.org/members/a ... tation.JPG
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/a ... met000.jpg

[Gerhard von Liebau]

Alcyoneus,

That's an incredibly interesting Chalicidian helmet that you have shown there! I've never seen that one before! Sadly, it probably dates to about 400 BC, and is AT LEAST 700 years too late for the Trojan War era. Also, the description you showed has a date similar to my guestimation... The helmets from the Trojan War era MUST be earlier than those, by several hundred years.

Dunno' how much more I'll have to mention that in here... Lol.



-Gregory-