How many people DO NOT fight from their knees

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:34 pm

Howdy,

I don't fight from my knees because:

a. It's not historical
b. It's not effective (for me)
c. My knees hurt when I did try it
d. I feel really rather silly (not in a good way)

If you don't fight from your knees, why? And what changes have you noticed?

-Aaron

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:17 pm

I don't because it is ahistorical - if someone chops off your leg you'd hit the ground screaming, not run 10 yards dropping and swinging.
It hurts my knees, I've had knee surgery from an SCA-related injury.
And, most importantly, it scuffs up my highly-polished stainless steel armour!

Troy Hafallen · Post by **Troy Hafallen** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:48 pm

Question-

then what do you do in a fight when you loose your leg?

Troy Hafallen · Post by **Troy Hafallen** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:52 pm

Question-

then what do you do in a fight when you loose your leg?

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:12 pm

Troy Hafallen wrote:Question-

then what do you do in a fight when you loose your leg?

Conceed the fight to my worth adversary (which is often).

-Aaron

Robert P. Norwalt · Post by **Robert P. Norwalt** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:22 pm

Well. I don't go slamming down. I stop where I'm at and "take a knee". I can't twist into the pretzel I see some guy's doing, so I usually don't last long fighting in that possition anyhow.

In heavy melee I let myself "bleed to death" within a minute or so.

Josh W · Post by **Josh W** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:45 pm

I avoid fighting from my knees as often as I can, and if I leg an opponent in practice, I insist he keep it. In melee, I'll fight from my knees if I can't easily dislodge myself from the press of bodies.

Noe · Post by **Noe** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 7:34 am

Question-

then what do you do in a fight when you loose your leg?

Good question:

I can only speak for our little Avalon group, but for us, when we are hit in the leg, then you "plant" that leg. You can step back and forward on it, but you don't lift it, simulating a slightly wounded, but not incapacitated leg. A second leg wound to either leg is considered incapacitating. This is our basic system, which is otherwise nearly identical to the SCA system.

For my part, I like it because a leg wound is always a certain disadvantage, and it doesn't require the attacker to limit himself afterwards, as is the case with taking a knee (no circling the opponent, no overrunning, no striking the legs).

Our other systems are mostly variants of counted blows, which do not require you to simulate a wound.

And, just to be very clear, I am in no way running down the SCA or its fighting system. The SCA's system is a tried and true rules set that clearly marks a person as having been legged. It's a model of combat. I would prefer to do without the leg wounds, but I'm not going to get worked up about it.

Heh, of course, I have an alternative.

anvildragon · Post by **anvildragon** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:45 am

Well, here in MCRS, it works like this...

Default wepon system is boffer, and armour counts. So, no armour, a strike to the leg is fatal.

Varying degrees of armour provide varying degrees of protection determined by the type of weapon being used, (sword, mass weapon, two handed mass etc.) I. E. chain doesn't do much good against a two handed axe, while plate will afford you two strikes to a region against the same axe.

So if you're not armoured and hit in the leg, you fall down dead. If you are struck in your plate defenses twice with a two handed mass weapon, you yield the bout due to injury which equates fall down wounded in melee.

If, I take up SCA combat again, I will ask my opponents to keep their legs and fight from their feet, and I will yield should I be legged.

Adrian

Ceddie · Post by **Ceddie** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 10:28 am

I knee fight because it's the way our rules are written. I will contenue to do so untill we can get the rule changed. I'd like to go the a set # of telling blows as a standard with out acted out wounds. That # can be 1, I don't care. which is basicly what you are doing if you accept legs as kills.
Then again I think the single best thing we could do to improve the SCA combat system is to change the word KILLING (or wounding) BLOW to TELLING BLOW.

Asbjorn Johansen · Post by **Asbjorn Johansen** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 10:32 am

I yield if I am struck in the legs.

Kenwrec Wulfe · Post by **Kenwrec Wulfe** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 11:00 am

As of now, I fight from my knees. Of course, I do not (at present) have problems or injuries with my knees. The rules are as such, so I work within them. Should they change, I will work with the new ones. Of course, should I suffere a knee injury, that will change.

I would like to see a change - telling blows would be good.... We will see what the future holds.

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 6:17 pm

just because no one else said it yet....

I just block my legs

Duncanthemonster · Post by **Duncanthemonster** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 6:48 pm

Legs? You got legs Murdock? :shock:

Oh Yeah...I saw em that time ya fought with the buckler....I think. :twisted:

J/K witcha bro.

from one hobbit to another...

{Edited to add the following}

Oops...I kinda forgot to coment on the topic(I have a tiny brain sometimes)

I am going more and more towrds disagreeing with the acting out of leg wounds by dropping to my knees. The rule set[at lest here in MidRealm] allows you other options, which is what I am starting to try and play with.

To quote the Marshal's Handbbok..
Sction 1.2.4 ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF BLOWS:
7) An effective blow to the leg above the knee will disable the leg. The fighter must then fight kneeling, sitting, or standing upon the foot of the unstruck leg. NOTE: Kingdoms may put limitations upon the mobility of such injured fighters. end quote.

I am playing with the lift and stick method...seems to work ok in practice as long as it is discussed before with my adversary. In tourney it might fly, again with the cavet of being discussed and agreed on before the fight starts.

In wars, I'll die most likley...if not from the blow taking my legs, the one in my grill shortly thereafter...

Just a my take on it.
Have fun, don't break your toys.

Gwydion Caithnes · Post by **Gwydion Caithnes** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:49 am

Noe wrote:I can only speak for our little Avalon group, but for us, when we are hit in the leg, then you "plant" that leg. You can step back and forward on it, but you don't lift it, simulating a slightly wounded, but not incapacitated leg. A second leg wound to either leg is considered incapacitating. This is our basic system, which is otherwise nearly identical to the SCA system.

For my part, I like it because a leg wound is always a certain disadvantage, and it doesn't require the attacker to limit himself afterwards, as is the case with taking a knee (no circling the opponent, no overrunning, no striking the legs).

I like this, and have always thought the kneeling thing a bit silly. But, like others here, I do it - mainly because it's part of the rule set, and I find that I can sometimes leg a vastly superior opponent and thus gain a small advantage.

I never really enjoy fighting against someone on his knees, though - win or lose. Against an equal I typically take my own leg as a point of honor, or ask my opponent to keep his. As a general rule I try to avoid throwing leg shots unless they're "too good" to pass up...

Cathal O'Ruarc · Post by **Cathal O'Ruarc** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:56 am

I am 5'6", not a big guy and a novice fighter. Leg shots are an equalizer, especially against you big fellas. Thus, I like the knee drops. However, I can fight a planter. Your other leg becomes my primary target! :wink:

Try getting hip rotation with range then...

Maelgwyn · Post by **Maelgwyn** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 1:00 pm

I do not fight from the ground in practice or tournament, I acknowledge the leg blow as a telling blow and yield the bout because I know of no historical evidence for anyone ever fighting from the ground in such contexts. In war or in a simulated duel I will fight from the ground because it is the only way within the rules to portray an injured leg.

Duncanthemonster · Post by **Duncanthemonster** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:45 pm

Maelgwyn wrote:I do not fight from the ground in practice or tournament, I acknowledge the leg blow as a telling blow and yield the bout because I know of no historical evidence for anyone ever fighting from the ground in such contexts. In war or in a simulated duel I will fight from the ground because it is the only way within the rules to portray an injured leg.

There is another way...from your Kingdom handbook Page2-3 section II Acknlodgement of blows, area B, bullet 6 reads in part the following....

Begin quote{ An effective blow, on the outside of the leg 2 inches (5.1-cm) above the knee to the hip
socket, will be judged to have incapacitated that leg. Such a wounded Combatant shall
then fight from one leg (the wounded limb must not give any support whatsoever). Or
from either a sitting position or on their knees and be considered grounded....}End qoute
You can either lift and hop, ground or yeild.
Not saying which is better, just want folks to know there are other ways to fight within the ruleset as it stands. Lots of fighters don't seam to be aware of there being anything else to do execpt drop or die.
Granted hopping is not really any better than kneeling...still looks dumb, but to me not as silly as dropping to my knees. It seems to keep the flow of the fight, and I think of it as a light wound, not a severed leg wound.
In Service.

olaf haraldson · Post by **olaf haraldson** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:16 pm

I am trying not to... I however sometimes still have the instinct to drop when hit there.

I simply take leg shots as a kill.

Duncanthemonster · Post by **Duncanthemonster** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 11:49 pm

Yeah...it kinda gets hardwired to drop when hit don't it?
Funny thing..Gruber, Ingrid, Killian(A squire in our Haus) and I went to go paintball a while back. Every time one of us got legged.....we'd go to our knees. We also never called"Paint!"....we called "Good [location of hit]!".
I swear once I called "Well struck!"..good for a giggle I think...

Gruber · Post by **Gruber** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 3:33 am

Monster... you're a freak. How you been doin' ??? After I get some armour built for myself, I don't think I'll be dropping to the knees. if you're good enough to lop off something manditory for normal loco-motion you're probably good enough to kill me when I'm disabled. I will conceed the fight.. I'm going to bleed to death as it stands anyway right?? HeeeheeHe heeEEEEE no pun intended :shock:

St. George · Post by **St. George** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 4:16 am

Gruber,

Ugo tells me that you drop to your knees all the time

Roland Brokentooth · Post by **Roland Brokentooth** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 7:09 am

^[img]http://www.arturzinho.blogger.com.br/kitten%20in%20glass%20copy%20owned.jpg[/img]

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 5:42 pm

In the winter, in the Barony of the Flame (Louisville, KY), the weekly deed of arms is done in a large hall, given us courtesy of the colee' d'armi at the university of that same city, and the floor of that hall is fashioned in such a way that it is kindly to those wearing slick footwear, that is to say, it is rough to the touch.

I had just purchased my legs from HE. I went to my knees to signify that a fellow had strake me upon the leg. Once. Everyone knew from that point on, for I signified it loudly with much cursing, that I would simply acknowledge the skill of my fellow man at arms when struck there.

But yes, it was the conditioning that made me go to my knees.

Jehan de Pelham, squire of Sir Vitus

Gruber · Post by **Gruber** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 6:43 pm

Hey Duke...... Ugo tells me while you were apprenticing UNDER him, you became quite limber yourself.

Lucz Cromer · Post by **Lucz Cromer** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 6:45 pm

I agree with Cathal on this one. I'm also 5'6" and "legging" a senior marshal in my shire is about the only way I can ever get a "kill" on his 6'+ self.

Ulrich · Post by **Ulrich** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 1:52 am

Just out of curiosity, for those who do not fight from their knees, because its "ahistorical" or "looks silly" Do you also conceed the fight when struck in the arm?

just curious,
Ulrich

Gruber · Post by **Gruber** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:21 am

I haven't looked at it that way before. I guess since I fight bastard sword, the fight only lasts a few sword strikes after one of my arms have been taken . Maybe one might have enough adrenolyn to continue for a few more swings???? There is shock and blood loss of course- but I remember getting my hand smashed with a war hammer that required seventeen stitches on one finger and a steel plate, two screws and a pin in the next one over and I was still able to fight with that hand; live steel full force, long enough to strike his backplate and knock him over before I realized what had happened to my hand. Not saying a hand injury is as bad as loosing an arm, but the whole " What if" thing is hard to predict. note- the time between the mauling and the sword strike to his backplate was like 2-5 seconds/ one swing no blocks inbetween.
As it happened he saw my hand get gnarled around my handle and the bloodspray shoot out from my hand.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 3:39 am

Ulrich wrote:Just out of curiosity, for those who do not fight from their knees, because its "ahistorical" or "looks silly" Do you also conceed the fight when struck in the arm?

just curious,
Ulrich

Often.

I'm still debating the issue. One of our local knights showed me how to fight from my knees, and while it seemed rather silly, it didnt' seem as ineffective as before.

I'm rarely hit in the arm...my head, thigh and buttocks always seem to be a target.

-Aaron

Wodan · Post by **Wodan** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 9:40 am

Due to a recent knee injury I will be conceding the fight. My biggest scare is that I may automatically drop to the knees cuz it is programmed in. I have done this before when I have been having knee problems and it is a bad thing. I have tried just sitting down and fighting crossed legged, back when I first started fighting, and that was like "ok, you can come kill me now".

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 12:00 pm

"Just out of curiosity, for those who do not fight from their knees, because its "ahistorical" or "looks silly" Do you also conceed the fight when struck in the arm?"

I am not a firm adherent to the "I won't fight from my knees" camp. I try and set up situations and maneuver myself into the martial culture which does deeds of arms that avoid fighting from the knees, partly because it seems an un-necessary artifice, and partly because I am not so interested in grinding my spring steel harness into the mud, turves, and gravel. This has sort of thrust itself upon me with my increased interest in formal deeds and the acquisition of fine harness.

And yes, I have yielded the field upon being struck upon the arm, when it counted, once. I felt that the setting was too pretty for me to resort to the expedient of switching arms, and holding a shield behind my back, and besides, if I was so foolish as to permit my good sword arm to be struck, then I deserved defeat.

Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus

Josh W · Post by **Josh W** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 9:15 pm

I agree with what Jehan said.

Anybody who fights from their knees 'cause "this is the SCA and that's the way we do things here" is obviously more interested in re-enacting May 1966 than the middle ages. You've been sucked in by the game and it's culture, and have lost sight of the goal, "the Dream"...

jgreywolf · Post by **jgreywolf** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 10:46 pm

Most times, if I am struck in a leg or arm, I yield, because I should not have let a shot in to hit me. Sometimes in the heat of a tounrament, I have been known to lose the limb as per the standard rules, and keep fighting. But I dont like to

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 1:45 am

Josh said it.

"we always doned it dat way...." the turmp card of SCA logic :roll:

And the reason we will likely not adopt anything that would possibly make SCA combat more medieval and less fantasy.

There are places where there is really no option, you either fight in modern "acted wounds double elim" lists or you basically don't fight. You play the game thats at hand or your don't play.

And while it is'nt exactaly right, rank affords some people options that others don't have.

We are not all playing in the same SCA.

jgreywolf · Post by **jgreywolf** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 12:29 pm

Murdock wrote:There are places where there is really no option, you either fight in modern "acted wounds double elim" lists or you basically don't fight. You play the game thats at hand or your don't play.

I am not sure I agree with this. If you are fighting in a standard double elim tourney - nothing says that you HAVE to act out wounds as such. If you wish to take your personal game to a higher level - then you can yield, if such suits you. But saying that you have to play it one way, or not to play at all, isnt a very positive outlook.