A grande assiette arming cotte

Tailoress · Post by **Tailoress** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:35 pm

I recently finished sewing a late 14thc arming cotte for Cet Donegal. He was kind enough to let me take some pics of him wearing it. It wasn't perfect and there's a pretty dumb mistake in the quilting of the upper arms, but it appears the cotte will function and will certainly look decent under his armour.

I sewed this all by machine except for the arming points (4 at the top of each tricep, 2 at the bottom of them). We're going to add leg points later. The points are reinforced by welded steel rings which I whipstitched over.

Just thought I'd show folks the kind of work I do.

-Tasha

Anon001 · Post by **Anon001** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 7:01 pm

deleted

Guy Dawkins · Post by **Guy Dawkins** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 7:23 pm

OOHHH!

I hope the one I'm working on will come out near to this one.

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 9:28 pm

Very nice. Its only missing one thing.

Crisscross lacing. :twisted:

You have a website for this, don't you?

Guy Dawkins · Post by **Guy Dawkins** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 9:29 pm

OK! I've stopped drooling. Cet, you are lucky man.

Are the sleeves sewn shut or are laced or buttoned?
Are those buttons at the collar?
Would a lace from the hem to the waist and then ties up the chest work as well?

Padrig · Post by **Padrig** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:47 am

Alcyoneus wrote:You have a website for this, don't you?

Alcy, The www below her post will magically take you to it.

Pad

Destichado · Post by **Destichado** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 4:06 am

It certainly looks fantastic. How much bunching do you get beneath the arm?

*edit* Never mind!

Good Lord. I just read the article on your site about sleeve construction. That's outstanding. I've gone from "kind of impressed" to absolutly amazed. Way to research!!!
Now I'm wishing that my work coats had that kind of construction. :sad:

Tailoress · Post by **Tailoress** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 7:50 am

Thanks folks, for the nice words. Now on to answers:

Ingrid wrote:Where did you get the pattern? Is this suitable for late 1400's very early 1500's?
Any ideas on accommodating such a pattern for women?
Ingrid

I fitted this pattern on Cet using the general style of the Charles de Blois cotte. I simplified a few pieces from the original (things that don't affect the type of tailoring involved) because of less need for fabric conservation (the original appears to have been cut from some relatively narrow silk brocade).

I wish I could answer whether or not martial folks were still using this style of sleeve by the late 1400s/early 1500s but alas, I'm barely studied up in that area. Perhaps someone else has a clue on that. I do know that as late as the 1450s/1460s men's martial doublets were using the grande assiette, though the silhouette of the entire garment had changed significantly by then. The Talhoffer fechtbuch from 1459 for instance shows a number of these.

As for doing this pattern on women, the first person I ever fit was myself. It was a challenge because I had a big bosum and a narrow ribcage. Basically what I suggest a female do is the same as I would do for a man -- drape the fabric and pin and cut while it's on the body. The end result will look quite different from a man's -- probably the gores will be smaller because there is usually less musculature in the woman's upper back. Here's a pic of one I made for a female friend who has asked not to be identified. This one is a bit looser than the one I made for Cet, but it's working for her. The armholes are also not quite as large as Cet's.

Bunching under the arms -- not really. It's looser under there by necessity, but it shouldn't be uncomfortable or binding with one's armour (or without).

-Tasha

Tailoress · Post by **Tailoress** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:25 pm

Guy Dawkins wrote:Are the sleeves sewn shut or are laced or buttoned?
Are those buttons at the collar?
Would a lace from the hem to the waist and then ties up the chest work as well?

Hi Guy,

They're sewn shut. I fitted them pretty closely and then left just enough room for Cet's fist to poke through at the end.

Yes, I put two flat metal (brass-looking?) buttons at the neck, per his request. He wanted something between his maille standard and his skin.

AFAIK, the lower-down lacing with ties up top would work fine. I suppose the argument for this is to get a very tight, smooth fit across the hips in order to create the 'girdle' effect for hanging one's legs. The ties up top make the process of getting dressed in it go faster. I haven't done a comprehensive study of martial fastenings and can't cite ties on period portrays off the top of my head, but I'm recalling that they exist. (?)

-Tasha

DAVID01 · Post by **DAVID01** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:31 pm

You do very fine work Tasha. Do you make custom orders?

Thomas H · Post by **Thomas H** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:36 pm

It's crap.

In a, i'm so jealous he has one and i don't, kind of way :-)

Padrig · Post by **Padrig** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:37 pm

I like your first one better Tasha but that may have something to do with the model.

Kiding aside, very nice work. I hope to someday be able to comission something similar from you. Maybe a trade if I get that dam shop to my liking and my skills up a notch.

Thanks for sharing.

Pad

Tailoress · Post by **Tailoress** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 7:07 pm

Thomas, you had me going there for a second.

Meaddrinker, I very occasionally take work, but only from local-ish folks. I'm pretty particular and require folks to come over to our place for fittings and such, so it doesn't really work if you're far away. I'm in PA. Sorry 'bout that. :sad:

Pad, are you telling me you think Cet is kinda cute or something? :shock:

-Tasha

DAVID01 · Post by **DAVID01** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 7:13 pm

What part of Pa.? My inlaws all live around Pittsburgh, Indiana and Johnstown.

Tailoress · Post by **Tailoress** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 7:42 pm

Other side -- near Philadelphia. That's about five hours by car from the Pittsburgh area. Oh well...

-Tasha

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:02 pm

Pad, are you telling me you think Cet is kinda cute or something?

Lol, don't think you caught his joke...

the first person I ever fit was myself. It was a challenge because I had a big bosum

I like your first one better Tasha but that may have something to do with the model.

Cheers!

-Gregory-

David Teague · Post by **David Teague** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:17 pm

Hello All,

Meaddrinker, I very occasionally take work, but only from local-ish folks. I'm pretty particular and require folks to come over to our place for fittings and such, so it doesn't really work if you're far away. I'm in PA. Sorry 'bout that

If you don't mind Tasha since you don't make these for everybody, I'll tell people about someone now offering a fitted arming cotte in the style you just showed off... nice work BTY.

Tomm of MATULS makes nice arming clothes and garb at very fair prices.
http://www.matuls.pl/english/index.html

[img]http://www.matuls.pl/grafika/bojowe/pikowaniec2_1m.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.matuls.pl/grafika/bojowe/pikowaniec2_3m.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.matuls.pl/grafika/bojowe/pikowaniec2_2m.jpg[/img]

Your looking at about $195.00 US right now in linen...

I have one of his pourpoints on order and should be able to show it off in a month or less... it should ship in 10 days and its coming from Poland...last package from Tomm took 2 1/2 weeks airmail... ( the first one came suface... 2 1/2 months!!! :shock:

) I've found Tomm a delight to work with and my group has 6 of his Aketons as fight coats so far.

Oh... and I also fell for thomas james hayman remark... :shock:

I was ready to do battle over such a crass remark... :roll:

Good thing I waited a few hours before coming back to post. :wink:

Cheers,

Padrig · Post by **Padrig** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:05 am

Greg has it right Tasha, I meant you of course. I must be loosing my touch.

I hope they don't revoke my French passport.

Pad

Tailoress · Post by **Tailoress** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 11:49 am

I'm such a dullard! :lol:

Thanks for the explanation Gregory. Sheesh...

Pad, you're not losing your touch, I'm just slow. <grins>

David, I don't mind you posting Mattul's stuff; I think he does very nice work at crazy-low prices, so people are welcome to try it out. I only do fittings on the body and don't work from measurements (well, maybe 5% is measurements), so we've got different methods and results anyway. Also, I really can only take local clients, which leaves a vast portion of the LH/SCA world up for grabs. :wink:

Destichado gets the prize for making my weekend though.

-Tasha

Guy Dawkins · Post by **Guy Dawkins** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:08 pm

Destichado wrote:Now I'm wishing that my work coats had that kind of construction.

The other day I was thinking that the ragland sleeve is the modern version of the grand assiette...and it doesn't work as well.

Tasha, after looking over your pictures, I now feel that the arm hole I am using is not symetrical and will have to be redone. Aw well, back to the drawing board.

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 2:07 pm

Wow, fantastic article.

Can't wait to see the follow-up on how to make one! I want to make one!

Steve

Guy Dawkins · Post by **Guy Dawkins** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 3:05 pm

All the cool kids are getting arming cottes! :lol:

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 9:27 am

Marcelle:

Question:

I believe from your article it says that the garment is quilted, but not padded. If this is so, why quilt it? For strength?

Steve

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 9:56 am

I once read that the Charles de Blois cotte was quilted in the Victorian era to preserve it. There are images of those style of cottes quilted for civilian wear though.

Karl · Post by **Karl** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 10:05 am

Tomm of MATULS makes nice arming clothes and garb at very fair prices.
http://www.matuls.pl/english/index.html

[img]http://www.matuls.pl/grafika/bojowe/pikowaniec2_1m.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.matuls.pl/grafika/bojowe/pikowaniec2_3m.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.matuls.pl/grafika/bojowe/pikowaniec2_2m.jpg[/img]

Your looking at about $195.00 US right now in linen...

I have one of his pourpoints on order and should be able to show it off in a month or less... it should ship in 10 days and its coming from Poland...last package from Tomm took 2 1/2 weeks airmail... ( the first one came suface... 2 1/2 months!!! ) I've found Tomm a delight to work with and my group has 6 of his Aketons as fight coats so far.

Just bought one, thanks so much for the link David. Tomm is a real pleasure to work with. With all the customizations I made mine cost about $300 US delivered airmail.

Tasha I love your work, I *really* wish you would accept out-of-town commissions.

Maybe you can start a business making these and do what others in the US do - get a company to make your patterns in 'S' 'M' and 'L' and sell them at Pennsic.

My best regards to you and your family.

Karl

David Teague · Post by **David Teague** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 2:00 pm

Hello Karl,

I think you will be pleased...when we first found Tomm, his prices were even less... :shock:

The first 3 aketons we ordered cost us $130.00 each delivered to Alaska... :shock:

The down side was Tomm shipped them surface and had no idea it would take almost 3 months to arrive.... :cry:

(His price were so good we thought he might be a scam artist... we were wrong.. :wink:

) The other part was that in the time it took our stuff to get to the frozen north Poland was in the middle of a skyrocking increase in costs of goods and services that forced Tomm to to raise his prices.... :sad:

( It all ties into them joining the E.U.)

The workmanship on everything my group has gotten has been world class. The garment will be tailored to you. Not just a S, M, L , off the peg garment. Enjoy!

Cheers,

Tailoress · Post by **Tailoress** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 6:36 pm

Steve -SoFC- wrote:Wow, fantastic article.

Can't wait to see the follow-up on how to make one! I want to make one!

Steve

Thanks, Steve. I really, really, really need to get on that.

-Tasha

Tailoress · Post by **Tailoress** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 6:48 pm

Steve -SoFC- wrote:Marcelle:

Question:

I believe from your article it says that the garment is quilted, but not padded. If this is so, why quilt it? For strength?

Steve

By "the garment" do you mean the Blois cotte, or grande assiette garments in general? If the latter, there's textual evidence for layers of fabric (the French quote found in the Harmand book). I can only assume that they are quilted for both strength and to hold the layers together solidly. In a civilian context, the quilting helps emphasize the look of the grande assiette garment (even if the sleeves might not have been cut that way!) Male clothing fashion has long imitated martial clothing, presumably as a nod to virility, strength, aggression, etc.

As for the Blois cotte, most sources claim the cotte is padded and quilted, but there is one anecdotal observance cited on Cynthia Virtue's website, which might be the source of confusion James cites:

http://www.virtue.to/articles/extant.html

The following is written there:

1360-ish Pourpoint of Charles of Blois. Lyon, Musee Historique des Tissues; Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince (source of the photo to the left) states:

In what is in effect a padded doublet, its outer layer of splendid silk patterned with gold, the padding has been so disposed that it enlarges the chest, and, by the closeness of its fit to below the hips, it must have maintained a corset-like grip round the body below the waist. Its sleeves are set onto the body part in the manner known as the grande assiette.

A contrasting opinion, from Paul Lalonde, on the H-costume list:

"Now, I, like many other 14th century geeks, have memorized the photos, not to say the cut of the thing, but have been unable to adequately explain the way it looks quilted.
Mystery no more: It's NOT. The puffy, quilted, look is an artefact of conservation - some kind soul carefully stitched the unlined garment onto another fabric to give it support, causing the horizontal puffing up that makes it look quilted. The elbows look funky for similar reasons, as the arms are filled not with a human-shaped form, but with a pile of stuffing that neatly fills the available space."

A visitor to my web pages was interested in this aspect, and wrote to the museum to ask if the quilting was as a result of conservation; they wrote back:

"I had confirmation from the person who did the conservation that the pourpoint was originally quilted with cotton. Very cordially, Vincent Cros, BibliothÃƒÂ¨que Centre de Documentation, MusÃƒÂ©e des tissus et MusÃƒÂ©e des Arts dÃƒÂ©coratifs de Lyon".

Hope that helps clear things up.

-Tasha

Tailoress · Post by **Tailoress** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 6:52 pm

Karl wrote:Tasha I love your work, I *really* wish you would accept out-of-town commissions. Maybe you can start a business making these and do what others in the US do - get a company to make your patterns in 'S' 'M' and 'L' and sell them at Pennsic. My best regards to you and your family.

Karl

Hi Karl,

Thanks for the kindness. I do regret being limited in my chosen method of operation, but I don't feel comfortable giving it up. I don't believe that most folks will fit an off-the-rack size *just right*, and I also think it's virtually impossible to use measurments from afar to exactly match the body shape in the area covered by the grande assiette. This could be my personal limitation however, as Tomm Matul seems to have figured a method out, from what others are saying.

-Tasha

Guy Dawkins · Post by **Guy Dawkins** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 9:23 am

Marcele_mka_Tasha wrote:
Steve -SoFC- wrote:Marcelle:

Question:

I believe from your article it says that the garment is quilted, but not padded. If this is so, why quilt it? For strength?

Steve

By "the garment" do you mean the Blois cotte, or grande assiette garments in general? If the latter, there's textual evidence for layers of fabric (the French quote found in the Harmand book). I can only assume that they are quilted for both strength and to hold the layers together solidly. In a civilian context, the quilting helps emphasize the look of the grande assiette garment (even if the sleeves might not have been cut that way!) Male clothing fashion has long imitated martial clothing, presumably as a nod to virility, strength, aggression, etc.

As for the Blois cotte, most sources claim the cotte is padded and quilted, but there is one anecdotal observance cited on Cynthia Virtue's website, which might be the source of confusion James cites:

http://www.virtue.to/articles/extant.html

The following is written there:

1360-ish Pourpoint of Charles of Blois. Lyon, Musee Historique des Tissues; Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince (source of the photo to the left) states:

In what is in effect a padded doublet, its outer layer of splendid silk patterned with gold, the padding has been so disposed that it enlarges the chest, and, by the closeness of its fit to below the hips, it must have maintained a corset-like grip round the body below the waist. Its sleeves are set onto the body part in the manner known as the grande assiette.

A contrasting opinion, from Paul Lalonde, on the H-costume list:

"Now, I, like many other 14th century geeks, have memorized the photos, not to say the cut of the thing, but have been unable to adequately explain the way it looks quilted.
Mystery no more: It's NOT. The puffy, quilted, look is an artefact of conservation - some kind soul carefully stitched the unlined garment onto another fabric to give it support, causing the horizontal puffing up that makes it look quilted. The elbows look funky for similar reasons, as the arms are filled not with a human-shaped form, but with a pile of stuffing that neatly fills the available space."

A visitor to my web pages was interested in this aspect, and wrote to the museum to ask if the quilting was as a result of conservation; they wrote back:

"I had confirmation from the person who did the conservation that the pourpoint was originally quilted with cotton. Very cordially, Vincent Cros, BibliothÃƒÂ¨que Centre de Documentation, MusÃƒÂ©e des tissus et MusÃƒÂ©e des Arts dÃƒÂ©coratifs de Lyon".

Hope that helps clear things up.

-Tasha

I've read this before and am not sure what the last statement says. Can some parse the Vincent Cros quote. Is he confirming with the conservation person that the garment was originally (in period and as found) quillted with cotton or, that the conservation was carried out originally in cotton.

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 9:57 am

Hi Marcele,

No, what I'm confused about is your description in your first post above:

"The shell is a heavy weight hemp linen and the lining is a silk/hemp charmeuse. No stuffing added."

It sounds to me like the garment you made for Cet was unpadded? Yet it looks quilted? I'm confused!

Steve

Tailoress · Post by **Tailoress** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 11:13 am

Guy, I think he's saying the garment was lined in cotton during its time of creation. It's not clear if it's still that way now, but it does seem clear that it was originally stuffed with cotton.

Steve,

Sorry. Correct, the arming cotte for Cet is unpadded. I see no need for it, nor have my customers so far. The hemp is rather thick, and the quilting is there for both strength/holding the layers together, and fashion. At this time, we don't have any extant arming cottes from the 14thc. We've got padded garments that appear to go OVER armour. like the Charles VI jupon and the Black Prince's heraldic jupon. That leaves the Blois cotte, which seems to be a civilian garment to me. Cet's cotte is about 2-3 lbs, even with just the two layers. I think the key is using a suitably thick fabric. I believe many people err on the side of too much padding under their armour. If the armour fits well, you shouldn't need a cotte to be padded all over under your armour. In a previous cotte I did for Asbjorn, I added a third layer of fabric in a few select areas, but that's it. Here's a picture of him wearing that one. You can't even really tell a third layer has been added. I think there's benefit to a low "topographical" result.

His braies and hosen are by Historic Enterprises.

-Tasha

Tailoress · Post by **Tailoress** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 11:17 am

Steve, it also just occurred to me that you might be wondering about the use of the term "quilted" when there's no padding/stuffing. That term can mean to stitch two or more layers together; it doesn't automatically mean that something is padded in between also.

If this ISN'T your confusion, my apologies for jumping the gun.

-Tasha

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 12:17 pm

Gotcha!

I just assumed that if you were to quilt something it would be so as to hold in place internal layers of something, probably padding. That's why I was confused that it was quilted with nothing inside. I suppose it probably also serves to tie the two layers of fabric together, to help them both bear loads together.

Thanks for the info, I want to try to make one of these garments.

Steve