1340, Italian Bascinet Visors (SCA)

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:58 pm

Hey guys,

I'm in need of information about what type of visors, if any, were known to be used in Northern Italy during the 1330's and 1340's... I know that's a bit early for bascinets in general, actually, but, I know they were around!

I'm wanting one for SCA combat, and also for reniassance faire reenactment. My SCA outfit will be as accurate as I can make it, fitting my nature, and I want it to be so in a way that I can use if off of the field proudly, as well. So, no bargrill! Visor for me... Attachment, general visual appearance, etc... Would all be important.

Any help would be appreciated!

-Gregory-

Stefan ap Llewelyn · Post by **Stefan ap Llewelyn** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 4:31 am

Well I am by no means an expert in any way but I believe side mounted globose visors are correct (see the example of the Sleeping guard from the Strassburg Cathedral, c.1345 which is not to much later than your period).

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 9:37 am

Side mounted globose was what I had in mind. Glad there's some evidence from the '40's for it, at least! Any particular examples from Northern Italy that people can point out to, or surrounding areas?

Thanks!

-Gregory-

Cet · Post by **Cet** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 9:45 am

Hi Greg,

The earliest visors I've seen on bascinets are either shaped much like later Klappvisor styles but mount via two pivot arms on the sides of the helmet or angluar visors more associated with sugarloaf style helmets. The line between sugarloafs and early bascinets seems be a bit fuzzy at times.

Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 9:45 am

NO idea about Italian bascinet visors at this time, but the Hastings brasses show round-topped bascinets with globose faces and various "grilled" occularia. Should offer visibility comparable to bar grills, although the breathability will be less.

I would encourage you to have an interchangable visor. Definitely get a visor that you can fight demos and the like in, but bar faces are a great boon to the sport aspect of our hobby. You may choose to eschew it, but in case you change your mind during a hot, muggy war, it will be nice to have.

Remember, our forbears also discarded their visors for foot combat for the same reasons we do-ventilation and visibility.

white mountain armoury · Tue Mar 15, 2005 9:54 am

Cet wrote:Hi Greg,

The earliest visors I've seen on bascinets are either shaped much like later Klappvisor styles but mount via two pivot arms on the sides of the helmet or angluar visors more associated with sugarloaf style helmets. The line between sugarloafs and early bascinets seems be a bit fuzzy at times.

Do you have any pics of this type of visor?

Strongbow · Post by **Strongbow** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 12:15 pm

I just went throught this.... though I was looking for 1350-1360.

The best examples I could find were form the brass of Sir Hugh Hastings, c. 1347, (Hastings himself and support figures of the Earl of Warwick and Lord Stafford) and the "Romance of Alexander", c 1338-1344. The visors on the Hastings brass have flattish faces and a V-shaped extension to form a throat protection. The visors in "Alexander" appear to be shoter, slightly globose, with a reinforcing bar down the center and scalloped bottom edge. All the visors were side-mounted.

I ultimately decided that such designs would take some effort to interpret for actual production and considerable modification to work well for SCA combat and decided to move my impression to c. 1370 and use a pigface.

Though I am hoping someone will be willing to tackle the Warwick visor on the Hastings brass for me some day.

I have scans of these if anyone is interested.

Strongbow

white mountain armoury · Tue Mar 15, 2005 12:51 pm

id love to see the scans

William de Grey · Post by **William de Grey** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 1:02 pm

As would I.

William

Brian W. Rainey · Post by **Brian W. Rainey** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 1:51 pm

The Romance of Alexander can be viewed here in excrutiating detail:

Romance of Alexander

A portion of the Hastings brass can be seen here:

Sir Hugh Hastings, 1347

Publications of note regarding the Hastings Brass:

Hartshorne, A. and St. John Hope, W.H., 'On the brass of Sir Hugh Hastings in Elsing Church', Archaeologia 60 (1906), 25-42

Hooper, B., Rickett, S., Rogerson, A. & Yaxley, S. 'The Grave of Sir Hugh de Hastyngs, Elsing', Norfolk Archaeologia. 39 (1984)

Dufty, A.R., 'The Hastings brass in Elsing church', Archaeol. J. 106 (1949), 103-4

Mann, J.G., 'A 15th century description of the brass of Sir Hugh Hastings at Elsing, Norfolk', Antiq,. J. 19 (1939), 421-8

Mourin, K., The Hastings Brass at Elsing, Norfolk, Norfolk Heraldic Monograph No. 3 (Dereham, 2001)

Binski, P., 'The coronation of the Virgin on the Hastings brass at Elsing, Norfolk', Church Monuments 1 (1985), 1-9

Belcher, B.T., Examples of Armour from Military Brasses in England (Ken Trotman Military Monographs 43, 2004)

Copies of rubbings are available here:

Hastings Brass Rubbings

I know... I am addicted to obscure publications and wierd sources... I should really seek out a therapist at some point.

Strongbow · Post by **Strongbow** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 2:11 pm

I'll post the scans when I get home. The HUGE scans at Oxford are where I got mine, but I've already combed them and pulled out the pics of visored bascinets.

Brian,

Thanks for all the references... I'll have to see if my local university library can get any of those.

Michael

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:43 am

Hey guys, thanks for the help! I really appreciate it! Must run off to school now! Adieu.

-Gregory-

Strongbow · Post by **Strongbow** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:57 pm

Sorry this took so long....

Here are some scans from the Romance of Alexander (C. 1340)

Keep in mind the late folios (209 and up) were added around 1400.

The scans here are from the earlier section.

The folios that have visors are (at least):

42v
51v
63r
78r
84r
85v
90v
91v
92r
92v
93r
94v
95v
107r
132v
150r
201r

I've included the best ones (IMO) here.

Strongbow · Post by **Strongbow** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:59 pm

A few more: