Strapping tape and Gulf Wars

Curt B. · Post by **Curt B.** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:03 pm

Gulf Wars 2005:

I was about to enter the Trimarian Bearpit tourney, for which I was running late. Since it was close quarters fighting, I wanted two swords. I had one of mine inspected already, no problem. I went to go have a quick inspection of my left handed sword.

Went to inspection point, handed weapon to marshal inspector guy. He observed weapon, said it needed re-taping. No problem, I could do that. Lengthwise application of duct tape doesn't take that long.

He then proceeded to pick and poke at the tape, noting that I did not have strap tape under the duct tape. He told me I would need strapping tape over the bare wood before it would pass. Another marshal there agreed with him.

I then proceeded to ask him if that requirement (strap tape) was in the fighter's (marshals) handbook of rules. He then paused, and said "yes." I said "ok" and spent the next 20 minutes retaping my sword to his specifications. The tournament came to a close, and I managed to get one fight in.

Later I asked around and most people said it was not required, although a couple of people with rank said it was.

I could not recall, so I checked the rulebook:

Society for Creative Anachronism, Inc. WEAPON STANDARDS

B. Swords:

4. The full length of the blade, including the tip, shall be wrapped with tape in a manner, which allows no rattan splinters to protrude.

and...

Meridies:

B. Weapons Standards

ii. The full length of the blade, including the tip, shall be wrapped in such a way that no rattan splinters protrude. The cutting edge shall be marked with contrasting tape.

_________

So, does anyone here think strapping tape is required? If so, can you show me the rule for it that was used at Gulf Wars? Thanks.

Woeg · Post by **Woeg** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:21 pm

Hey Talon, I was always told that strapping tape is requirred for rattan but not siloflex...but I have no idea what the official rule is.

It was great fighting beside you in the Legion of the Bear tourney, amigo!

Ceddie · Post by **Ceddie** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:55 pm

No straping tape is not required. I tried to explain that the the people doing weapons inspections... really I tried.

The long and the short of it is: you got worked by someone who felt like as a marshal they have the right to push their opinions on others. If I'm around next time, find me.

These were the same people who had beef with you at PH.

BdeB · Post by **BdeB** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:59 pm

That is just total crap!

Next time ask for the copy of the rule that says that. Afterall, he is suppose to have one on hand.

I hate when people get goobed by marshalls....there is this one guy that always screws with me, every year at pennsic (well, not this last year come to think of it...maybe it was because I am a knight now, or maybe it was just dumb luck, who knows!) ...I must give him the jollies or something! :roll:

morristh · Post by **morristh** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:00 pm

I believe that the strapping tape is one of those holderovers from a Know World handbook from like 50000 years ago. It was used to help the swords last longer-certianly during the rattan shortages of the 1980's. But I can not ever remember it being required. Marshalls should read the damn rules and not go on their crappy memories--heck guys we HIT each other on the heads :evil:

Tim

BdeB · Post by **BdeB** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:01 pm

Btw, your weapons should be freshly retapped before wars and tournies anyway as a general rule. Not as something that the marshalls should call you on, but just out of a sense of pride in your appearance. It also helps answer the 'flat' question in tournies.

Brandr · Post by **Brandr** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:16 pm

BdeB wrote:Btw, your weapons should be freshly retapped before wars and tournies anyway as a general rule. Not as something that the marshalls should call you on, but just out of a sense of pride in your appearance. It also helps answer the 'flat' question in tournies.

It also prevents your opponent from eyeballing your nominal range too.
Not to mention that it does make it easier to get through inspection. Typically what I have been told is that you want no bare rattan spots bigger than a quarter.

Brandr

PS And I suppose that next year at Gulf Wars in order to combat this horrible injustice :wink:

forced upon us by the Marshalate you will be volunteering an afternoon in the Marshal tent, no???

broinnfinn · Post by **broinnfinn** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:29 pm

I have been fighting heavy for 25 years now, and to my knowledge strapping tape has never been required. It may be a good idea, but in my memory I have never noted that it was mandatory.

Incidentally, I never remember anyone at inspection point when I was on duty making this call - do you remember the name of the Marshal who was inspecting?

Broinnfinn

BdeB · Post by **BdeB** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:36 pm

Brandr wrote:
BdeB wrote:Btw, your weapons should be freshly retapped before wars and tournies anyway as a general rule. Not as something that the marshalls should call you on, but just out of a sense of pride in your appearance. It also helps answer the 'flat' question in tournies.

It also prevents your opponent from eyeballing your nominal range too.
Not to mention that it does make it easier to get through inspection. Typically what I have been told is that you want no bare rattan spots bigger than a quarter.

Brandr

PS And I suppose that next year at Gulf Wars in order to combat this horrible injustice forced upon us by the Marshalate you will be volunteering an afternoon in the Marshal tent, no???

If I can come to GW i'd be happy to take a turn with Lord Talon (whom i'm sure agrees with me) at the Marshalling tent (just like I do at Pennsic) to make sure that folks get thru the process in a speedy manner. Most marshalling tents at wars are disaterously long. I'm known for speeding up the line quiet a bit...

There is nothing worse than missing a battle because you are getting goobed in a marshall line. And Brandr, i'll be looking for you to be marshalling at Pennsic then... :twisted:

Curt B. · Post by **Curt B.** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:55 pm

Hey,

Thanks for all your responses guys. I believe we should have safety on the field, and I'm a big fan of strap tape. Love the stuff.

All I know is they were at inspection point during the Trimarian tourney. I'm not saying these guys were lying, maybe they were just ignorant, I don't know.

I just appreciate honesty, that's all. If if you don't know, then say "I don't know."

Maybe its a good idea to have a handbook available at inspection point in case a fighter has a problem with something.

I know I should have mine with me at all times (society and kingdom). I goofed.

Ceddie · Post by **Ceddie** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:57 pm

I give up one war point and at least one afternoon to work as a marshal every year. This year it was the town battle and the time before at marshals point. I DID have several people bring their weapons to me to be re-checked after being bounced for not enough tape. I sent a few back for blades but that was it.

Brandr · Post by **Brandr** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 3:17 pm

Ceddie wrote:I give up one war point and at least one afternoon to work as a marshal every year. This year it was the town battle and the time before at marshals point. I DID have several people bring their weapons to me to be re-checked after being bounced for not enough tape. I sent a few back for blades but that was it.

Really??? I was marshalling too. The only weapons I bounced for a tape problem was ones that either needed a contrasting edge or the tape was just almost completely gone. I remember one two handed sword in particular that just needed some tender loving care. LOL....obviously it had been alone for a while. There were a number of weapons that needed work on thrusting tips. Almost every spear tip was stiff from the cold. My favorite though was the one that leaked with pressed. It was completely water logged.

I am trying to place you. Which side of the tent were you on?

Brandr

Ceddie · Post by **Ceddie** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:39 pm

I was doing the weapons on the side closest to the kitchenears. I think I was wearing a green over tunic with a yellow under ans a blue mantel that day. Then, I marshaled the road side of the town.

I think the oddest weapon that I saw was the mace that looked like an butt...spike...(not the kind you put on a glave)

Brandr · Post by **Brandr** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:46 pm

Okay I remember that mace. That was definitely odd.

You and I were in the same section of the tent and marshalled the same side of the town battle. It was you, I, and a nice lady marshal.

Does that sound right?

Brandr

Ceddie · Post by **Ceddie** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:55 pm

I think so, the Lady in question is Alisanda (I know I miss spelled it) she is one of Artos's squires.

do you remember the sword that was so pulped it was almost articulated?

here is a pic it may help

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 6:05 pm

I am ashamed to admit that one of my swords was bounced for ratty tape. It had strapping tape (I, too, thought it was required) and duct tape, but the tape was pretty chewed up.

I figured I might get some grief over it (which is why I brought my pre-sleeved siloflex sword with me in case I needed it), but I was devoting all my efforts to my armour right up until the war and did not have time to address my old sword (which has not seen action is a few years!).

Rather than fix the old sword, I just clamped a new basket onto my siloflex blank, taped the edges, and was back out again in 5 minutes.

I tend not to complain or worry about marshals too much - some are good, some aren't, all are volunteers doing what they feel is right. Usually it does not take much to comply with a marshal's request, right or wrong.

My only complaint was my shield having a splotch of green spray paint sprayed on the inside canvas-covered side of my shield, where it is now unremovable.

I would recommend perhaps colored wire-ties or hospital arm bands fastened around a shield basket, belt loop, or other manner to mark good weapons/shields, rather than paint.

Steve

Thorstenn · Post by **Thorstenn** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 6:34 pm

Hehehehheheheh!!! I new that if I gave that marshal 10.00$$$ he would fail your sword and thus keep you out of that turney!!!!!!! :twisted:

First step take over that turney next is the Woooorrrrrlllllllllddddddddd..... Mo hahahahahahahhaha

:shock:

Thorstenn

mrks · Post by **mrks** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 6:35 pm

I carry a copy of my kingdom's combat rules and the society mins for just this type of situation.

sounds like the old hey these are the rules runaround. marshals tend to support one another on those occasions.

mrks

Magnus The Black · Post by **Magnus The Black** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:11 pm

Steve that sucks. It makes me wonder my shield wasn;t sprayed only my weapons.

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:13 pm

They made me put a lanyard on a bastard sword...

Since when does Meridies require a lanyard on anything??

Magnus The Black · Post by **Magnus The Black** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:15 pm

Now thats dumb. Meridies does have a Lanyard rule I believe for single handed weapons in tourneys. But a bastard sword by defination is pretty much a 2 handed sword. I would have raised the BS flag.

broinnfinn · Post by **broinnfinn** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:28 pm

Lord Magnus the Black wrote:Now thats dumb. Meridies does have a Lanyard rule I believe for single handed weapons in tourneys. But a bastard sword by defination is pretty much a 2 handed sword. I would have raised the BS flag.

Single handed weapons require a lanyard or equivalent restraint - tournament or no tournament, there is no specification. This isn't a Meridian rule, it's a Society rule:

VII.A.2. Weapons used single-handed shall have a wrist strap (or equivalent restraint) which will keep the weapon from leaving the immediate area of the user.

Broinnfinn

Patton Lives · Post by **Patton Lives** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:32 pm

broinnfinn wrote:
Lord Magnus the Black wrote:Now thats dumb. Meridies does have a Lanyard rule I believe for single handed weapons in tourneys. But a bastard sword by defination is pretty much a 2 handed sword. I would have raised the BS flag.

Single handed weapons require a lanyard or equivalent restraint - tournament or no tournament, there is no specification. This isn't a Meridian rule, it's a Society rule:

VII.A.2. Weapons used single-handed shall have a wrist strap (or equivalent restraint) which will keep the weapon from leaving the immediate area of the user.

Broinnfinn

Does that mean that during tourney anyone using a 2 handed weapon(spear, poleaxe, greatsword ect), if an arm is taken, must forfeit unless thier weapon has a lanyard, because they will now try to use it one handed? I mean he did have basically a two handed sword, unless they thought he intended to use it one handed at some point, I dont see the reason for requiring one.

Odo · Post by **Odo** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:37 pm

Ceddie wrote:I think so, the Lady in question is Alisanda (I know I miss spelled it) she is one of Artos's squires.

do you remember the sword that was so pulped it was almost articulated?

here is a pic it may help

My God man, could you not find a razor...........

Ulrich · Post by **Ulrich** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:35 pm

Steve,

If I may suggest (this is what I do) I have a spot of "wood colored" tape on the back of my shield, where I tell the Marshal's to spray when they inspect my shield. Then after the event, I simply remove it. Same with stickers and my helmet...Put some scotch tape on a spot, and have them place their stickers there...it removes without too much "sticky" on your nice helm, and doesn't leave any "paper" residue.

Murdock - Bastard Swords by Meridian Rule must be 48 inches or less, thus are considered single handed weapons. and must have a lanyard, for tournaments. However for Melee the "immidiate area" is (by rule) considered the field and thus a lanyard is not required by our rules for melee's.

However Please remember that there were marshals working from lots of different kingdoms and their rules may vary. I'm sure they were just trying to do the best job they can. I hope it didn't cost you too much time to get fixed.

Drachus - Don't be a rules lawyer. If the Weapon is two handed (in Meridies that means over 48 inches in length) then it is not required to have a Lanyard, regardless of how it ends up being used. He didn't have a two handed sword, he had a bastard sword...one designed to be used either -one- or two handed...I'll bet a dollar to a dime they didn't make him put a lanyard on his greatsword.

-Ulrich

Magnus The Black · Post by **Magnus The Black** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 11:18 pm

What I read in the marshals handbook is thus

d. Weapons used single-handed shall have a wrist strap (or equivalent restraint) which will keep the weapon from leaving the immediate area of the user. A basket hilt will be considered to be the equivalent. In a melee, the "immediate area" may be defined as the field, so long as spectators and bystanders are not in danger of being hit by accidentally flung weapons.

which from what I read a lanyard is needed to prevent a weapon from leaving the field and hitting a bystander. IF this is not a possiblity in mellee than it is not needed. Of course I could always be wrong and would intrested in Sir Artos interpetation of such.

and

i. Greatsword: Any sword with an overall length of 4 to 6 feet. The grip of a greatsword, including the pommel weight, must be shorter than the length of the blade. Any sword with a grip longer than the blade must be padded as per the pole arm standard. GREATSWORDS MAY NOT BE SWUNG WITH "EXCESSIVE FORCE".

ii. A slashing greatsword is a mass weapon (see VI.A.19).

iii. Bastard and Single-handed Swords: Swords of 48 inches or less. As with greatswords, the grip is limited to a length of less than the blade of the weapon.

Now this section defines a greatsword and a bastard sword. the intersting thing is a 4 foot sword is a greatsword. A 48 inch sword is a bastard sword. 4 foot is 48 inches. So a 4 foot sword could be either. I know not what length Murdocks sword was though.

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 11:47 pm

"- Bastard Swords by Meridian Rule must be 48 inches or less, thus are considered single handed weapons"

Now that actually makes sense. I just tied a string on it and it passed.

As for the length it's almost the exact size of my real one so it's probably about 4 and a half feet. Around 52 inches or so, so it was a tiny SCA greatsword and didn't require a lanyard according to Ulric. Though i don't think it was actually measured. I'll measure it and see.

Still I have never seen anyone put a lanyard on in Meridies.

I never got my HUGE 6 ft SCA greatsword out of the tent so it was never checked or used.

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 11:49 pm

Ulrich, thanks for the great idea, I will do jus that.

Concerning lanyards, I put a lanyard on my sword, since I had to have it at the last Pennsic I fought. It is a single-handed sword with a basket hilt.

At Gulf Wars inspection I asked if I needed a lanyard, and they said single handed swords required a lanyard, but basket hilts qualify as a lanyard.

Steve

Samuel · Post by **Samuel** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:34 am

thats kinda funny...

I put two runs of ducttape length wise over my swords and contrasting edge tape... never any more than that.

even in my early days I used athletic tape on swords and no ductape.. and just sharpie marked a striking surface ( but I found that I left lil black lines on ppl I hit... and stopped using sharpie markers)

personally I think strapping tape is wishful thinking at its worst. it increases the wieght of the blade making it out of balance. adds mass. and generally doesnt do jack for preserving the life of a stick.

yet ive never had a sword not pass inspection from tape or rattan hanging out .. ( the one with the pipe sleeve raised eyebrows but it got passed for the tuchux tourney:) JUST KIDDING!!!)

Just me but its a STICK... theyre all created fairly equal... if its thicker than 1 1/4 " cover it with a tube sock if that floats your boat. but so long as it has no metal in it, isnt an effective tool for sweeping out your tent, isnt exposing 1/4 of its entire rattan guts aka mostly taped and does its intended job... it meets the req.

IM of the mind that in a war senario where ARROWS ARE FLYING.... a lanyard is a bit much......
especially on a cross guarded weapon.

Moltan · Post by **Moltan** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:58 pm

here is a pic it may help[/quote]

My God man, could you not find a razor...........[/quote]

Get a load of this guy:
http://www.corymcdaniel.com/photos/GWXIV_19.JPG
Enjoy,
Michael

BdeB · Post by **BdeB** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 10:34 pm

I'll tell you, I have been experimenting with carpet tape instead of strapping tape and the swords I have made are holding up amazingly well. Might be this stick of sweet rattan that I got as a knighting present but these swords are just awesome...

Curt B. · Post by **Curt B.** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 8:40 am

Moltan wrote:here is a pic it may help

My God man, could you not find a razor...........[/quote]

Get a load of this guy:
http://www.corymcdaniel.com/photos/GWXIV_19.JPG
Enjoy,
Michael[/quote]

That's ok, in this picture the guy on the left has TWO heads! Ugh.

http://corymcdaniel.com/photos/GWXIV_17.JPG

Sir Robert Valcore · Post by **Sir Robert Valcore** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 8:57 am

sounds like you got the run around.... happens more often than you think

Sir Godfried of Frisia · Sun Mar 27, 2005 9:36 am

BdeB wrote:Btw, your weapons should be freshly retapped before wars and tournies anyway as a general rule. Not as something that the marshalls should call you on, but just out of a sense of pride in your appearance. It also helps answer the 'flat' question in tournies.

Besides regularly retaping a sword makes a sword last two to three times as long. Since you can take time to repair damaged areas. Like spliting at the tip.

Godfried

Malachiuri · Post by **Malachiuri** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:58 pm

The strapping tape probably is one left over from years ago. The strapping or fiber tape was there to prevent (or at elast try to prevent) a broken stick from winging into the crowd, not rattan protection.

The old Calontir marshal book I was given when I moved here had the rule.