How about this for a Pennsic Scenario (SCA)

sarnac · Post by **sarnac** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 8:33 am

How about this for a battle at Pennsic:

If the King or the Kings banner falls... the battle is lost.

The banner would be mobile or immobile to fit the scenario.
It would be considered captured if it was taken, if the king died or if the king was separated from the banner by more than some arbitrary distance (say 10-20').
De facto this would mean that the king and his guard would probably comprise the banner guard and probably die fighting to defend it.

That would prevent having a 250 man unit who's job was to hit ONE guy and would still be realistic. On a battlefield the rank and file would know
their king was still leading the army because they could see his banner as
much as by his physical presence. Indeed, if the king's banners were cast
down they might assume he was dead even if he were not.

You could even add an interesting twist to the vanilla field battle: make
the victory *either* to the last man or to death of the king (again based on the royal banner). Then each side has to decide how well to guard their
king--if you defend him too well do you sacrifice initiative? His guard is
probably elite.. when and where do you commit them? Does the outnumbered side drive for the enemy king as their only hope? etc..

Credit to Sir Ilya from Calontir

Thoughts?

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 9:41 am

I like it, but I think you are sitll going to have a 250-man unit chasing down one man - the flag bearer.

I still think it's a cool idea.

Steve

Cet · Post by **Cet** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 9:58 am

I want to be the standard bearer.

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:03 am

Sounds just like Ultrazone, or any capture the flag game. Kind of like the Pennsic Woods battle, too.

I think it'd be fun. We use something like that for training here in Atlantia.

I think I still have some Ultrazone coupons, too... hmmn.

Skutai · Post by **Skutai** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:24 am

I'm agin' it. Anything that can cause a battle to prematurely and suddenly end is, to the eyes of this grunt, unwelcome.

The battles at Pennsic take forever to set up due to all the people involved. One heavy flanking unit could blast its way to the banner and end the fight in under five minutes. So much set-up for so little fighting would leave many unsatisfied, myself included.

"Kill the King" style battles are great in smaller events where the two sides can knock heads then get up and do it again in short order. The armies at Pennsic are too unwieldy for such shennanigans.

dukelogan · Post by **dukelogan** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:38 am

i couldnt agree more. fun for a small event, not good for pennsic.

regards
logan

Skutai wrote:I'm agin' it. Anything that can cause a battle to prematurely and suddenly end is, to the eyes of this grunt, unwelcome.

The battles at Pennsic take forever to set up due to all the people involved. One heavy flanking unit could blast its way to the banner and end the fight in under five minutes. So much set-up for so little fighting would leave many unsatisfied, myself included.

"Kill the King" style battles are great in smaller events where the two sides can knock heads then get up and do it again in short order. The armies at Pennsic are too unwieldy for such shennanigans.

x · Post by x » Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:45 am

There was something rather like this at the most recent Kingdom's Crusades (between East and Atlantia), except it was if the Queen fell (the Queen was armored, and on the field...both had spears, as I recall).

This particular instance had some weirdness because they had set up a "As soon as a force comes within 10 feet of the Queen, fighting stops and those within 10 feet of the Queen duke it out, if the Queen's side wins, fighting continues" kinda thing.

Twas, quite honestly, not a heck of a lot of fun. I don't say that just because we lost...but because it just didn't go well.

BdeB · Post by **BdeB** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:54 am

Thinking more and more about this, it would suck.

That capture the Queen scenario was awful.

Skutai · Post by **Skutai** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:57 am

Agreed. In both battles I remember engaging the enemy, fighting hard, and then the marshalls suddenly calling a hold. In a flash of black and yellow they effectively killed dozens of fighters that didn't happen to be within 10' of the queen at that moment. Frustrating.

Of course, the barrier battle was even weirder, but at least in that one you could fight to exhaustion.

Cet · Post by **Cet** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:14 am

How 'bout this then?

A two point battle; one point for being the first to capture the opposing forces banner; second point for having the last man standing on the field.

BdeB · Post by **BdeB** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:39 am

Let's just get rid of points Honestly, once there is a archery, fencing, Service, and SHOPPING point. Who cares?!?!

You know who really dominated the fighting, you know? The points don't really matter....not that I don't like to win, mind you...

Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:40 am

A King in period was attended by Great Nobles, no?

How about this: Three points for a King, and one points for a Duke or a Count? Must have at least three points worth of Nobles to continue the fight...

Would definitely change tactics. Not all of your eggs in a basket.

Skutai · Post by **Skutai** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:44 am

Three points for a King, and one points for a Duke or a Count?

I guess then that killing a couple knights to get to a duke would be considered collateral damage...

Henry of Bexley · Post by **Henry of Bexley** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 4:14 pm

This is just my opinion- I have never fought and still have to wait 6 months before I'd even be eligible for melee.

I personally feel that a point system is contrary to the spirit of the game SCAdians play. We want to feel like we're in the ideal version of the Middle Ages, and having a battle based on a point system for popping off nobles doesn't sound very period to me. Neither does that capture the king scenarios either, really. Now granted, I have never been on the field, but when I get out there, I don't want anything to change about the game I'm playing just because I put on armor. It just seems a little too much like modern sports for my taste.

Just my two cents.

Ringlancer · Post by **Ringlancer** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 4:37 pm

I think that there should be a HUGE Marshall style tourney, fought on the entirety of Pennsic.

Good recreation of the havoc early tournies did to the villages that happened to 'host' them.

Of course, charging up or down Runestone would be a bad idea.....

Nissan Maxima · Post by **Nissan Maxima** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 5:10 pm

we used to fight on that hill.

jester · Post by **jester** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 6:14 pm

BdeB wrote:Let's just get rid of points Honestly, once there is a archery, fencing, Service, and SHOPPING point. Who cares?!?!

You know who really dominated the fighting, you know? The points don't really matter....not that I don't like to win, mind you...

Hear, hear!! And let's drop the whole War designation while we're at it. Just for a year. Call it the Pennsic Fair (where merchants gathered to trade and people came to shop) and declare a week of grand tournaments. Set the battles up so people get all the fighting they can stand and let them have parlements (campfires with liquid refreshment) at night in which they endlessly debate 'who won'.

dukelogan · Post by **dukelogan** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 6:36 pm

most excellent idea!! the whining and bitching would decrease and we still get to enjoy what we can about pennsic.

regards
logan

jester wrote:
BdeB wrote:Let's just get rid of points Honestly, once there is a archery, fencing, Service, and SHOPPING point. Who cares?!?!

You know who really dominated the fighting, you know? The points don't really matter....not that I don't like to win, mind you...

Hear, hear!! And let's drop the whole War designation while we're at it. Just for a year. Call it the Pennsic Fair (where merchants gathered to trade and people came to shop) and declare a week of grand tournaments. Set the battles up so people get all the fighting they can stand and let them have parlements (campfires with liquid refreshment) at night in which they endlessly debate 'who won'.

DELETEMYACCOUNT · Post by **DELETEMYACCOUNT** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 7:50 pm

I think it would be very interesting to see what would happen if they held a grand melee at the same time the field battle was going on. I wonder who'd show up to which.

Magnus de Urqhart · Post by **Magnus de Urqhart** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:31 pm

I don't know how well it would work in sca but we play a hold the banner war. A 3-hour time limit 5-min resurrection unlimited lives. One flag set in the center of the field both armies try to take the flag back to their castle and hold it the person holding the banner my not be armed. As long as the banners in your base you get time on it. Army that holds it the longest wins.

It was a blast for us to play.

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:43 pm

I think it might be interesting to try a variable resurrection battle. If you die, you are out for X minutes. If you are wounded, you are out for Y minutes, or even touch and go.

Diglach Mac Cein · Post by **Diglach Mac Cein** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 6:33 am

BRING ON THE MOAB!

Dilan

sarnac · Post by **sarnac** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 7:22 am

Dilan,

post the details on that!!!

Diglach Mac Cein · Post by **Diglach Mac Cein** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 8:30 am

The Mother of All Battles... Pennsic Style.....

Bear with me on this description -

Scenario -

After their defeat at the border, the army retreats to their castle for re-inforcements - and will defend it, and the town just outside the gates, with their very lives......

This battle uses the WHOLE Pennsic field!

The Field is divided into 3 parts -

The First 1/3 is the "Attacker's Zone" - At the back is the Res point. The dividing line between this third and the middle third is divided by 3 passes (passes from the hills to the town)

The Middle 3rd is the "Town Zone" - a number (5 - 9) of buildings, various sizes, scattered in the center of the field. There are 3 flags marking the center line of the battlefield - These should be in buildings.

The final 3rd is the "Defenders Zone" - The castle proper.

RULES:

1) EVERYTHING IS IN PLAY - including CA and siege weapons! Siege weapons CAN be moved closer at the battle runs. Must be "stepped down", moved by hand and "re-set" to fire.

2) At the start of the battle, the defender can put 100 men in the Attacker's Zone, 5 spear lengths from the "start line". These men represent outriders / patrols.

3) At the start of the battle the defender can put up to 200 men in the "Town Zone". These represent the City Guard.

4) The defender gets "x" number of haybales to set out as siege works - temporary walls. (Those pool noodle things from last year would work too) The walls CANNOT be set within 2 spear lengths of the castle wall, the town, or the edge of a pass. A wall 1 bale high can be stepped/fought over, 2 bales cannot.

5) RESSURECTIONS - Attacker can ALWAYS Res. Defender can res until the town "falls" - the town falls when 2 of the 3 banners are "dropped". A dropped flag CANNOT be re-raised.

6) There is a banner in the center of the castle grounds - when this falls, or the defending King surrenders, the battle is over.

Fight, then switch sides after a break to recover ammo, move bales.

Fastest time wins!

Yep, this battle is a HUGE grinder. You not only have to fight a long, nealry running fight, but you have ot do it TWICE. The commanders have the extra challenge of keeping attrition down.

sarnac · Post by **sarnac** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 9:46 am

I would love to see this happen...

this is what Pennsic SHOULD be like

Seamus Og · Post by **Seamus Og** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 3:22 pm

How about this for a battle at Pennsic:

If the King or the Kings banner falls... the battle is lost.

The banner would be mobile or immobile to fit the scenario.
It would be considered captured if it was taken, if the king died or if the king was separated from the banner by more than some arbitrary distance (say 10-20').
De facto this would mean that the king and his guard would probably comprise the banner guard and probably die fighting to defend it.

That would prevent having a 250 man unit who's job was to hit ONE guy and would still be realistic. On a battlefield the rank and file would know
their king was still leading the army because they could see his banner as
much as by his physical presence. Indeed, if the king's banners were cast
down they might assume he was dead even if he were not.

You could even add an interesting twist to the vanilla field battle: make
the victory *either* to the last man or to death of the king (again based on the royal banner). Then each side has to decide how well to guard their
king--if you defend him too well do you sacrifice initiative? His guard is
probably elite.. when and where do you commit them? Does the outnumbered side drive for the enemy king as their only hope? etc..

Credit to Sir Ilya from Calontir

Thoughts?

I have but one thought on this: BLACK TALON CHARGE!!!!!!

Seamus OG
www.seamusog.com

Angusm0628 · Post by **Angusm0628** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 3:59 pm

Irish,
Yer MOAB scenario rocks. The only hitch in it I can see is the number of Marshalls that will be required and the attack lines for siege weapons. You'd almost have to have designated zones of fire since the entire Battlefield would be in play...BUT DAMN I LOVE IT

HauoctheWild · Post by **HauoctheWild** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 4:37 pm

Irish wrote:The Mother of All Battles... Pennsic Style.....

Bear with me on this description -

Scenario -

After their defeat at the border, the army retreats to their castle for re-inforcements - and will defend it, and the town just outside the gates, with their very lives......

This battle uses the WHOLE Pennsic field!

The Field is divided into 3 parts -

The First 1/3 is the "Attacker's Zone" - At the back is the Res point. The dividing line between this third and the middle third is divided by 3 passes (passes from the hills to the town)

The Middle 3rd is the "Town Zone" - a number (5 - 9) of buildings, various sizes, scattered in the center of the field. There are 3 flags marking the center line of the battlefield - These should be in buildings.

The final 3rd is the "Defenders Zone" - The castle proper.

RULES:

1) EVERYTHING IS IN PLAY - including CA and siege weapons! Siege weapons CAN be moved closer at the battle runs. Must be "stepped down", moved by hand and "re-set" to fire.

2) At the start of the battle, the defender can put 100 men in the Attacker's Zone, 5 spear lengths from the "start line". These men represent outriders / patrols.

3) At the start of the battle the defender can put up to 200 men in the "Town Zone". These represent the City Guard.

4) The defender gets "x" number of haybales to set out as siege works - temporary walls. (Those pool noodle things from last year would work too) The walls CANNOT be set within 2 spear lengths of the castle wall, the town, or the edge of a pass. A wall 1 bale high can be stepped/fought over, 2 bales cannot.

5) RESSURECTIONS - Attacker can ALWAYS Res. Defender can res until the town "falls" - the town falls when 2 of the 3 banners are "dropped". A dropped flag CANNOT be re-raised.

6) There is a banner in the center of the castle grounds - when this falls, or the defending King surrenders, the battle is over.

Yep, this battle is a HUGE grinder. You not only have to fight a long, nealry running fight, but you have ot do it TWICE. The commanders have the extra challenge of keeping attrition down.

I had a similar idea to this but I also wanted to limit access in front to the castle to something similar to a causeway (or just fight in front of the castle and then inside it) and mark off a "moat" area in front (the spears over the walls kind of annoy me). My idea involved running it over two days (1 attack, 1 defend). I also thought it would be interesting to have the defenders resurrect 1 area to the rear of the fighting (ie if you die in the field before the town, you resurrect in the town as part of the city guard. Die in the town and resurrect in the castle. Die in the castle and be dead. ) I do love the idea. It would definitely be intense.

Havoc

Magnus de Urqhart · Post by **Magnus de Urqhart** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:51 pm

We have an event in Amtgard called Knoblander

Knoblander is a 24hour team based battlegame event. Players will be split up into various teams(camps) and will participate in various storyline driven missions and battles over the course of Friday night through Saturday night.

Is fun as hell if you sign in as a player you are in game if you awake or not you are in game the full time.

How about this for a Pennsic Scenario (SCA)

How about this for a Pennsic Scenario (SCA)

Banner Melee thought