I wanna be EARLY-IRISH

Post by JT » Fri Mar 25, 2005 9:36 am

Before the Vikings came and ruined it for everyone. :wink:

Mord · Post by **Mord** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 9:50 pm

Murdock wrote:Thats what your gonna get with "no lower limit"

I'd suppose we're talking from 500-900 ad

The Norwegians, then the Danes showed up in Ireland in the 9th Century AD. Look at G. Jones "A History of the Vikings" for more information. How about from the time St. Patrick lived to about 800 AD?

Mord.

Finnacan · Post by **Finnacan** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 2:35 pm

Yeah, it's a pain, but not impossible, as long as you realize none of the sources are primary.

The two single most important resources for clothing in this timeframe are:

Dunlevy, Mairead "Dress in Ireland: A History" The Collins Press, 1989 ISBN 1-898256-84-5

and of course
McClintock, H.F. "Old Irish and Highland Dress, with notes on that of the Isle of Man" Dundalgan Press, 1943

Dunlevy can still be located via Amazon, and Scotpress.com has the long OOP McClintock available on CD, a great purchase.

These works cover the entire SCA timeframe and do not give much info on the Early Christian Era in Ireland, but they give just about all there is to know. Careful (read anal) scholars have other sources they can look at, though, which both Dunlevy and McClintock reference. Poetic sources like the tales of the Ulster and Fenian Cycles, fragmentary Brehon Law, Annals of the Four Masters, etc.
Hair styles, Clothing decoration and color and even belts and shoes make appearances in these stories, though some are given mythic description.
Another source is art from the timeframe, such as The Books of Kells and Durrow, both of which predate heavy Norse contact. Combining descriptions of the Leine (shirt or tunic) Brat (cloak) Truis (trousers) Inar or Ionar (jacket or coat...hi, other thread people!) with the images found in these works will begin to give a reenactor some idea just how the clothing hung on the body, as long as the art style is understood to be nonrealistic.

So start with those sources, get linen and pure wool flannel, maybe some leather and prepare.
It's a fun ride, but it's long one.

~Finnacan

Gobae · Post by **Gobae** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:00 pm

For early Irish accutrements be sure to check out "Pagan Celtic Ireland: The Enigma of the Irish Iron Age" by Barry Raftery.

This book covers everything from tools, clothes, society, to personal adornment. Of particular importance is the LACK of clay pottery during the pre-Christian/Viking age.

Another excellent resource is: "The Archaeology of Late Celtic Britain and Ireland c. 400-1200AD" by Lloyd Laing

Many of the same things are covered here as well, but since it also goes into the Christian and Viking eras it will give you a good overview of how trade with Anglos, Saxons, and Norse slowly influenced the styles of dress, adorment, and technology of Ireland.

Saverio · Post by **Saverio** » Sat May 07, 2005 8:45 am

http://saverio.mediumaevum.com/irishswords.jpg
[img]http://saverio.mediumaevum.com/irishswords.jpg[/img]
Here are some Irish sword shapes, pre-Viking invasion (scanned from Arthur and the Anglo-Saxon Wars)

Robert P. Norwalt · Post by **Robert P. Norwalt** » Sat May 07, 2005 10:13 pm

So "F" would be considered an "irish" seax? I prefer that shape over the top draw versions. Kind of a precursor to the bowie? :?:

Saverio · Post by **Saverio** » Sat May 07, 2005 10:33 pm

Robert, more or less. We know they had big knives, but we don't know if they used them to fight with or as tools (just like axes

).

Robert P. Norwalt · Post by **Robert P. Norwalt** » Sun May 08, 2005 12:09 pm

Severio

Okay. So if the tang is 3.75-5 inches, then the blade length on the longer one's are 22-26 inches? 29-32 inches overall? That's kinda short for a "sword" is'nt it? What's up with that? The Celtic Tribes on the Continent liked their blades quite a bit longer in the Classical Periods (Bronze and early Iron "age") and if my memory serves, so did the Roman's cavalry blades. So why did the migration era Irish/Scotti/Pictish boy's like them shorter? Wierd. They just like to fight in closer or what? I'm tapped for book money for this month, but next I want to research this out a little better.

Oengus

Saverio · Post by **Saverio** » Sun May 08, 2005 5:05 pm

Hmmm...we don't actually know how long the tangs were. If you assume C has a 5" tang, then it would be about 30", which would make H around 40. Of course, I did this relatively quickly, I could have made a mistake.

But assuming the swords are all 29-32 I can think of two possible reasons.
1) Ireland is iron poor
2) tradition
It's believed that the Celts trickled into Ireland slowly from the 5th century. Remember that early Celtic iron swords were somewhat short. They may have clung to that tradition. Their shields also seem to be smaller than in use in Britain and the continent.

Saverio · Post by **Saverio** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:21 pm

Ok, early Irish kit. This is my take on 6th century Irish clothing. The handpin is close those from the period, but not perfect (it was my first attempt at casting). If anyone is actually interested in doing this period I can scan some drawings of about 2 dozen pins and half a dozen penannulars from the period.
[img]http://saverio.mediumaevum.com/handpin.jpg[/img]

I think that sleeveless leinte were still worn at this time, as well as sleeved ones.
[img]http://saverio.mediumaevum.com/6thcentirish1.jpg[/img]

The brat is 3 1/4 yards of light wool. Here it is folded in half and pinned
[img]http://saverio.mediumaevum.com/6thcentirish2.jpg[/img]

And here's the brat worn full.
[img]http://saverio.mediumaevum.com/6thcentirish3.jpg[/img]

The belt is problematic. Buckles don't show up in Irish archaeology until the late 6th/early 7th century. For now I'm just wearing a simple leather belt with a copper buckle. I'd like to replace it with an organic toggle.

Is anyone still interested in this?

Robert of Canterbury · Fri Jul 15, 2005 9:47 am

Still interested,

What would change for an Invasion era Irishman? ie 800ad onwards..

Robert

Saverio · Post by **Saverio** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:52 pm

Very little of the clothing changes. The brooches and stick pins change. Gael Agus Gall has a good kit guide for this era.
http://homepage.eircom.net/~gael/gaelweb/kit.html

I posted these pictures a while back. 10th century boaire (lowest level property owner). A lot of swords would be the viking type at this point. Still very little evidence for armour. The Irish seemed to fight light. I'm going to eventually add a conical spangen to my kit.
[img]http://saverio.mediumaevum.com/irishuw01.jpg[/img]

[img]http://saverio.mediumaevum.com/irishuw02.jpg[/img]

[img]http://saverio.mediumaevum.com/irishuw03.jpg[/img]

Eamonn MacCampbell · Post by **Eamonn MacCampbell** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:52 pm

Dan, just perused the site you posted..very intressting. Got some ideas that will help my kit a bunch.

Couple of questions...What style of shoes are you wearing and do you know any site that have broches for sale..I know you sent me a site some time ago but I would like something a bit planer than what they had for everyday wear... Course I've seen some of your work, mabbe you should think about selling some to us Irish folk..

Saverio · Post by **Saverio** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 9:36 pm

Eamonn, the shoes I'm wearing are Lucas type 3
http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-ca ... SLIST2.HTM

Send me an e-mail about the brooch, I think I have a few in stock, if not I can make one easily (and cheap

).

Dave Womble · Post by **Dave Womble** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 12:23 pm

Some good stuff here, though not all of it pertains to "early Irish":

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=5844

Dave

Dave Womble · Post by **Dave Womble** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 7:20 pm

hey I like the vikings they only ruined it for everyone because everyone else was weak and coulcnt stand up to the brute force of the vkings

JollyJoker, you obviously havnt read much about the vikings and their contemporaries....

If your post was truly in jest, thats fine, it was amusing, if you truly believe that however, you need to seriously do some research. The vikings are a very near and dear topic to me, and even so, I have to bite my tongue and admit the vikings had their asses handed to them many. MANY times over their 300 year +/- jaunt. The Irish, English, Franks, Muslims and Slavs (to name a few) all had major victories against the vikings.

Brute force wasnt the primary tactic of the vikings. Hit and run was. They also played upon peoples fear of them...extortion was far more common than actual large scale conflict.

I also wanted to mention that the Irish were just as viking like as their Scandinavian neighbors...they fought and raided each other just as much as the vikings did. Their internecine wars and feuds were just as violent. Their seafaring was no less ambitious.

And lets not forget what happened at Clontarf.

Dave

Johan S. Moen · Post by **Johan S. Moen** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:12 am

Saverio: just a quick question, what are the dimensions of that cloak(ie. how long is each side)? I could not quite make out if it was a rectangular or quadratic. I really like it, seems to drape and cover nicely!

Johan Schubert Moen

Saverio · Post by **Saverio** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 8:10 am

The first cloak (grey) is 3 1/4 of 55" wide fabric. The second is 2 1/4" of 55" wide fabric. They key is in pinning it just right

.

jollyjoker126 · Post by **jollyjoker126** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:55 pm

Well he said in the beginning that the vikings ruined it for everyone and ive read that vikings raided the irish monks numerous times. Also thanks because i never knew the irish had an actual fighting force (Doh!) until you told me that they were just as ambitious and their scandanavian neighbors

cheers
mike
P.S. Really stupid question but are second generation normans and anglo saxons also considered vikings?

Saverio · Post by **Saverio** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 8:16 pm

Well, the Anglo-Saxons weren't descendents of the Vikings. The Normans quickly adopted French culture, so they're Norman after a generation or two. By the 11th century the Vikings in Ireland should be called Ostmen since their culture was unique by that point.

Johan S. Moen · Post by **Johan S. Moen** » Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:45 pm

Saverio wrote:The first cloak (grey) is 3 1/4 of 55" wide fabric. The second is 2 1/4" of 55" wide fabric. They key is in pinning it just right .

Thanks mate, hopefully my red vadmal cloak won't be a complete disaster now. :p

Johan Schubert Moen

Saverio · Post by **Saverio** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:37 am

Johan, how big is your cloak? I wrangled with my cloak for months before realizing I was pinning it wrong.

Johan S. Moen · Post by **Johan S. Moen** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 3:57 pm

Saverio wrote:Johan, how big is your cloak? I wrangled with my cloak for months before realizing I was pinning it wrong.

I have a piece of vadmal that is 1.5 m x 2,5 m. Haven't cut it yet, and I am going to put on some tablet woven trim as well.

Johan Schubert Moen

Peter Baker · Post by **Peter Baker** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:03 am

Thanks for the pic of the swords Saverio, I've been wondering what, exactly, I'd need, and I think those'll fit the bill pretty well.

Ceadda · Post by **Ceadda** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:20 am

Iâ€™m no expert here, but here is what I got.

Based off of carvings, artifacts and drawings such as the book of Kells, you can identify the Early Irish dress as such.

Main item: the Leine. The leine is a t- tunic, clear and simple. The only reason I can see to call it anything else is that in much later years it evolved into a shirt with huge puffy sleeves.
The Leine is usually depicted with long, close fitting sleeves and various necklines, though most, if not all necklines, were closed, meaning, no fastenings. Neck, hemline, and cuffs were decorated with trim and/or embroidery. The higher up the food chain or more formal one got, the longer the leine, going from knee length to floor length. Leines can be split up the sides for ease of movement and we generally more narrow the full skirted.

Leines/tunics can be layered, the shorter one on top of the longer one. Makes for fun contrasting colors.

Brat/Mantle: rectangle or square cloak/blanket. The richer you are, the more elaborate the brat. Trimmings and linings and brooches, oh my.

Cloak: Hooded cloaks were known. There was a leather hood found in a bog some where going back to the iron age. Fur lining was also known.

Pants: Warriors and commoners wore â€˜em. The rulers, not so much. Thatâ€™s the on-going theory, anyway. But since Irish rulers often ruled by force, Iâ€™m guessing they donned a pair of pants now and again. Perhaps it was the formal occasions where they left the trousers at home.

Shoes: Gillies in various cuts and styles. Also known as a Bog Shoe. Many colors available. Etching, leather tooling, and additions of gold adornments were known.

Colors/Fabrics: Linen and Wool are your primaries. Furs and Leathers are common, but avoid the Conan look. Popular colors are Blue (Woad), Red (Madder), and Yellow Saffron) was very popular. Many, many colors could be achieved. And leather shoes and belts were often died as well. Patterns of Checks, Strips are known but avoid the modern plaid nightmare.

Jewelry/Accoutrements: Torcs, gold, silver, copper and copper-alloys. Wrist cuffs and bracelets, arm rings. Amber and Jet were popular stones. No cut precious stones yet. Drawsting bags of linen, wool, or leather. Brooches penanular and other styles and fibula.

Misc: As far back at circa 300 bc, Men were known to use imported cosmetics of pine tar or resin to style their hair, even as a Mohawk style. Facial Hair was common among the learned and powerful. Women often braided their hair and added lots of pretty bobbles to the braids, like gold balls and such.

A lot of this is very similar to typical, iron-age Celtic dress.

Thatâ€™s for the soft kit. Iâ€™m not sure so much about the hard kit. It is important to note that Ireland, while it was remote, was not isolated from the rest of Europe. Irish have been known to raid and trade with the other nearby isles and even mainland Europe. Its perfectly acceptable to believe that many fashions/weapons may have been inspired by or been brought home to Ireland from the Romans, Britons, Jutes, Saxons, Angles, Picts, etc.

Below is my interpretation. Ignor the boots, belt and the pouch which are all wrong but I'm working to replace.