My go at a more authentic helm liner

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 2:20 am

Well, I bought this great basinet with klapvisor a while ago, and as soon as I got it I put a blue-foam liner in it so I could fight with it.

But now that I've seen other folks' attempts at more period liners, I decided this helm deserved a better liner. You can see my photo-essay on making this nearly-finished liner here:

http://www.forth-armoury.com/photo_gallery/helm_liner/helm_liner.htm

Steve

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Forth Armoury
The Riveted Maille Website!

Erik Schmidt · Post by **Erik Schmidt** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 3:10 am

Congratulations, that's a very important step to authenticity. Next you might want to replace that bolt holding the visor on.

I know, I know. You'll tell me it's there so you can take the visor off, to which I will reply, you should have had a period type dimountable hinge fitted. I am being difficult?
Your web page is well done, hopefully it will inspire many others.

The lining looks great. How are you attaching it to the helm?
I might want to point out that these liners seem to have been fitted so as to keep the head away from the helm. When sewn to the edge, as was done in period, the lining in effect suspends the head inside the helm allowing for a gap, which means that the padding is only there to cusion very hard hits, normal hits don't even cause the helm to touch the head. This is why the helms on 14th century effigies look very large, the larger the helm, the bigger the gap.

Erik

verminaard · Post by **verminaard** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 6:45 am

You know steve, it's a good thing you have a nice camera. I love every one of your photo essays. Now I have a liner to go make...

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Do not adjust your brain
It is reality that is malfunctioning

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 8:29 am

Looking good! I think your going to love the final results....Otto

David deKunstenaar · Post by **David deKunstenaar** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 9:19 am

I'll attest to the fact that when it is sewn in it acts to suspend the head. This is kind of a problem if you want to feel the hit. I can't, in either my sugar loaf or my bascinet. I am makeing a and additional stiff pad to place in the helms to fill in the gap so I can feel something. When it comes ot comfort, ther is just no comparison between a stuffed liner and foam. The foam always seemed to have pressure points that after a lot of fighting would give me a headache. These liners seem to comform to your head, and have no pressure points. I have heard they breath a little, and I do know they wick sweat away. Make sure to coat the inside of your helm.
The only foam I have left, is lining my helm bag to prevent travel dents.

David

Mad Matt · Post by **Mad Matt** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 9:21 am

Ok I'm gonna go look at the photo essay and print it out for my wife.

Now first thing I've got to say is that's not a great bascinet.

It's a really nice looking bascinet but it's definitly not a great bascinet they look a lot different.

Nice looking liner. I guess you've got about a billion holes to punch in the bottom edge of the helmet now eh?

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The budding mid 14th century German Transitional guy.
Mad Matt's Armory

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 9:26 am

Yup, I'm going to drill many holes along the entire bottom opening and face opening of the helm, I'm guessing about 1/2" apart. The liner will be stiched to this, making a suspension liner.

The hardest thing left to do is make button holes at the top of the points of the dags to run a cord through. I can punch a hole through everything (stuffing and all) with my hole punches, but sewing up the button hole is going to be tough with all that stuffing in there.

Thanks for the feedback!

Oh, I'm going to grind the bolt heads so it looks less like a bolt!

Steve

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Forth Armoury
The Riveted Maille Website!

David deKunstenaar · Post by **David deKunstenaar** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 9:29 am

If the liner is flush with the top of the helm, why do you need to lace the top together? I used this same pattern in both helms and did not need to with either. Actually, once sewn in, it has no where to go so it stays together.

Arti

[This message has been edited by David deKunstenaar (edited 03-14-2002).]

Tom Justus · Post by **Tom Justus** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 10:04 am

Arti,

The lace at the top is used to make small adjustments in how the bascinet fits allowing for the eye to align properly with the occularia of the closed visor. It also creates a suspension harness effect so that the liner's stuffing does not have to do the whole job of deadening the blow.

Good job Steve! Glad to see you're finally taking the plunge. Your essay is a wonderful example for others to follow.

Best Wishes, Tom Justus

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 11:30 am

Hey Tom, GREAT to see you posting here. You do great work ! Glad to see yet another highly skilled craftsman join the ranks!...Otto

Mad Matt · Post by **Mad Matt** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 11:53 am

You'll probably want to have closer to 1/4" spacing between the holes.

If you don't have a whitney punch this'll make buying one worth it.

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The budding mid 14th century German Transitional guy.
Mad Matt's Armory

Dorkknight · Post by **Dorkknight** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 5:00 pm

So is your new liner going to see SCA combat? I assume so, but I've never seen anyone use a period liner before, what can I say I'm sheltered. If it is going SCA, is that enough padding? And if it is enough then I have a liner to make!

Ideval · Post by **Ideval** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 5:16 pm

Steve, if you sew a stainless ring onto the fabric over the mark where the lace-hole will be, you can then slit or punch the hole at your leisure.

Also, I sew my liners to a latigo band, holes punched every eighth to quarter inch. I then rivet the leather band to the helm, via eight to ten rivets.

Eric, or Egfroth, I think, suggested that I not rivet the band over the brow. I have revised a liner with this in mind, and now the suspension is perfect. The "pressure point" is eliminated and the semi-slack band comfortably grips the forehead.

To fill the "gap" created by the suspension, I use a thick piece of fleece. It provides extra padding over the crown and forehead, in the case of a strong face hit.

IdÃ«val

justmagnus · Post by **justmagnus** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 5:22 pm

Very nice Steve!

I am looking into getting a bascinet myself. If I do I will definitely try one.

Thanks,
Magnus

justmagnus · Post by **justmagnus** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 5:48 pm

Oops, meant to put this this in my reply. You said you rolled up some cotton batting tinto tubes and stuffed them into the channels. I have some gamboised cuisses an used cotton rope batting in the channels and they work great.

Magnus

Stefan of Kiel · Post by **Stefan of Kiel** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 7:36 pm

Great layout. I'll be trying it this weekend for my bascinet. I had started a foam liner, but this is obviously much better. Thanks.

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Stefan von Kiel

If you can't use finese, then make a mess.

Parlan · Post by **Parlan** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 8:10 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dorkknight:
So is your new liner going to see SCA combat? I assume so, but I've never seen anyone use a period liner before, what can I say I'm sheltered. If it is going SCA, is that enough padding? And if it is enough then I have a liner to make! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

THere are several out here that use this liner for SCA combat and love it.

Great photo essay. This has really motivated me. Perhaps I'll finally get that Luther bascinet finally padded!

-Parlan

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 11:03 pm

Wow, thanks for all the kind words and comments, guys!

My goal is every time I do a medieval project like this to document it with pictures and put it on the web. I mean, I'm doing the work anyway, why not snap a few pics along the way? I know for me a lot of starting a project is the apprehension of not having seen it done before and not being certain of how to go. I always hope that by showing stuff like this people will go, "Gee, that doesn't look so hard after all!" and do it!

I'd like to credit my doing this with the fellow that posted his very similar liner a few weeks back. I'd search for his post, but we can' search!

I got the idea from him (whoever you are!

).

Yes, I intend to use this for SCA combat. I believe the padding encases my head at least as well as foam, plus the fact that it is a suspension liner should be a bonus.

I have a knock-off Whitney punch, but I was not going to use it for making the liner holes - I was going to mark, centerpunch, and drill. I will consider closer than 1/2" spacing - closer to 1/4".

Steve

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Forth Armoury
The Riveted Maille Website!

Erik Schmidt · Post by **Erik Schmidt** » Fri Mar 15, 2002 5:04 am

Ideval, that was me who suggested not sewing it along the brow, your memory serves you well.
Steve, what Ideval is referring to is a litle theory of mine. On many period helm the holes for sewing in the lining do not continue across the brow. I believe the lining was fitted so that it was stretched across the brow area, from temple to temple, thus keeping the brow away from the front of the helm. I haven't tried it yet, but the next helm I make will have it.

Regarding the spacing of the holes, I studied many pictures of period helms and came to the conclusion that the holes were consistently about 6mm(1/4 inch) apart, which came to 70 holes on my helm, which I marked, centre punched and drilled.

Erik

David deKunstenaar · Post by **David deKunstenaar** » Fri Mar 15, 2002 3:58 pm

Otto von Teich posted pictures abut a month ago of this design.

Sir David deKunstneaar

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Fri Mar 15, 2002 5:07 pm

I did post some pics of mine a while back, it was green, with horizonal channels. I must say I like your design better. Looks more authentic. If I gave you inspiration, I'm tickled pink LOL. Keep up the good work....Otto

Gaston de Clermont · Post by **Gaston de Clermont** » Fri Mar 15, 2002 8:29 pm

Indeed, a nice rendition Steve, and valuable information to share.
I've fought SCA in a similar liner for about two years now, and I love it. Think of your regular blue foam as a plastic bench on a subway car. The linen liner is like your favorite easy chair. It's that much cooler and more comfortable. Linen is made from the bits of plants that draw water from the ground and move it to the leaves, so the fabric keeps you amazingly dry. I like the stuff so much I stuffed mine with flax tow from a weaving supply store.

As for holes around the face opening, I stitched mine to the brow line as well, and have been very happy with that. My man-at-arms, Antonio, has a very nice 15th century helm which it didn't seem appropriate for. His liner has a tendency to shift back away from the brow line, which we've had to adjust for by repadding and adjusting the ties at the crown. I'm still not thrilled about it, but it works.

If you're worried about thickness, think of the padded channels like a cylinder. The distance between your lines of stitches is going to be half the circumference of that cylinder. You need the diameter of the cylinder to be half an inch. So 2piR is your circumference, R is half the diameter, you want your channel stitches to be at least 1.6 inches appart. A good stuffing of tow or cotton batting is pretty comparable to blue foam, but it does compress some over time, so you might have to refluff it like a pillow, or replace it.

I can't recommend a period liner enough. They're totally worth the extra time and effort.
Sir Gaston de Clermont.

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Sun Mar 17, 2002 2:14 am

Thank you for the post and pics. The instructions were very informative.
And to think, I was thinking, of putting blue foam in my helm.
You have shown me the light!

Hal.

David deKunstenaar · Post by **David deKunstenaar** » Sun Mar 17, 2002 8:10 am

I thought you were talking about the points of the padding at the top. Mine is sewn in at the brow ridge as well, and at the bottom. That is one of the big advantages. Glued in foam always falls apart in the third round of the tournament. I did not punch holes though, a yarn needle and a little umph, goes right through without cutting any of the threads.

Arti

DanNV · Post by **DanNV** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 11:35 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Clermont:
Indeed, a nice rendition Steve, and valuable information to share.
I've fought SCA in a similar liner for about two years now, and I love it. Think of your regular blue foam as a plastic bench on a subway car. The linen liner is like your favorite easy chair. It's that much cooler and more comfortable. Linen is made from the bits of plants that draw water from the ground and move it to the leaves, so the fabric keeps you amazingly dry. I like the stuff so much I stuffed mine with flax tow from a weaving supply store.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can you post contact info for your source? I can't get flax tow anywhere here and that is what I'd like to use to make the liner for the new helm I am planning.

Thanks.

Dan

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 11:49 am

Hey Dan, I got my tow from Van Dykes. phone # 605- 796-4425. Seems like it was about 5 bucks a lb. Onr pound should do about two helmets....Otto

DanNV · Post by **DanNV** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 3:43 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Otto von Teich:
Hey Dan, I got my tow from Van Dykes. phone # 605- 796-4425. Seems like it was about 5 bucks a lb. Onr pound should do about two helmets....Otto<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll have to try to call them. I have one of their catalogues, but they only list hemp tow and no flax tow.

Dan

Dmitriy · Post by **Dmitriy** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 9:38 pm

Gaston -- will you be at Crown? I would like to take a look at your padding.

-Dmitriy

Galvyn Lockhart · Post by **Galvyn Lockhart** » Tue Mar 19, 2002 8:11 am

Nice job on the liner. I would definitely like to try something similar, but I fight primarily in great helms. One from Alan Bauldree and a Pembridge from Armourer Eric. Would this kind of liner work for great helms or should I go w/ a padded arming cap?

Galvyn Lockhart

Warren · Post by **Warren** » Tue Mar 19, 2002 1:36 pm

Nice liner, good work. I suggest making leather washers and punch stiching holes in them. Then stitch these in place over the ends of the liner where you plan to lace. Do it on both sides, and then punch out the hole in the liner. You will have nicely reenforced holes that will hold up very well.

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<A HREF="http://www.hosekileather.homestead.com" TARGET=_blank>

www.hosekileather.homestead.com

</A> "There was great wailing and gnashing of teeth"

Morvan · Post by **Morvan** » Tue Mar 19, 2002 3:44 pm

Steve -

You're absolutely DEADLY with a digital camera and keyboard!

Keep up the great work - your how-to articles are wonderful.

(PS, I'm almost finished with my riveted maille tools...)

-morvan

Erik Schmidt · Post by **Erik Schmidt** » Tue Mar 19, 2002 4:45 pm

Galvyn, the topic of such liners in great helms has come up before.
It would certainly work, although the liner would not be stitched in along the bottom of the helm, but attached along the lowest rivet line joining the plates.
The effigy of Ulrich de Werd, Swabia c1345, shows just such a liner in a greathelm. It is located in the church of St. William, Strasbourg. A drawing can be found in the book, Arms and Armour of the Crusading Era 1050-1350.

Erik

Bertus Brokamp · Post by **Bertus Brokamp** » Thu Mar 21, 2002 9:17 am

Hi there, i'm a real newby at all of this armor stuff. I acquired a bascinet off lately and wanted to have some padding in it. So I brought the helmet to someone who is making a 1 cm thick layer of felt in it right now.
I was thinking about sewing this into a linen covering and then attaching the whole to a leather strap 4 mm thick which I would rivet on to the base of the bascinet. But all your talk about 'cotton padding' and 'suspension lining' has made me doubt. Should I cut the felt liner open at the top, making four of those suspension triangles. Or should I give up on the felt completely and start over with other materials like cotton and make the tube-design...

[This message has been edited by Herman (edited 03-21-2002).]

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Thu Mar 21, 2002 10:02 am

For basinets, I think it was most common to sew the liner in place. This is a boon, because you can cut the stitches and remove the liner in minutes, for washing or replacement. Likewise it can be replaced in minutes.

I'm sure some liners in period were riveted in place (kettle helms, for example) so I guess it depends on the helm.

Isn't felt wool? Wool is probably a more appropriate lining material than cotton. In fact, unless you want to be extraodinarily period, I'd say stuff the thing with whatever you wanted - no one can ever tell once the liner is sewn up. I chose cotton because of the way it wicks.

Steve

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Forth Armoury
The Riveted Maille Website!

Mad Matt · Post by **Mad Matt** » Thu Mar 21, 2002 10:46 am

Felt should work really well although it may be a little stiffer then the quilted type padding.

The good thing about felt is it's incredibly strong.

You can sew the felt liner into the helm. The only thing I'd say might work better is to make a felt cap and then sew that into the helmet. You want the liner to fit your head not your helmet.

Steve: I'm pretty sure other fibres can be felted but then again I'm a fabric moron so don't listen to what I say.

Also just a note on your stuffing comment. It's very important to not use synthetics. Meaning the choices for stuffing would be things like %100 cotton, %100 wool, %100 linen tow, or combinations of the above. Just keep the synthetics out they don't breathe.

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The budding mid 14th century German Transitional guy.
Mad Matt's Armory