Splinted varangian bazubands

Stahlgrim · Post by **Stahlgrim** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 9:38 am

So I was making a set of bazubands from the W.M.A. pattern in the Archives files when I noticed that the pattern had some lines indicating where to roll the forearm and I got the idea that I could make splinted bazubands that would look more like the splinted vambraces worn by byzantines,vendals,varangians and the like.
these are pics of the 2nd prototype and I didn't planish or polish it.I was just trying to get the structure right also I made it of 16guage stainless and it is tank as hell.I will do a set for myself in 18 guage.
Thanks Adam for the cool pattern that inspired this project

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 9:59 am

Hey, the pictures don't show! I'm very interested in seeing them, because I'm planning on making my own splinted bazubands and greaves for a Varangian outfit..!

-Gregory-

Mike Garrett (Orc) · Post by **Mike Garrett (Orc)** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:00 am

Mmmmmmm............splinted.
Very nice!

Magnus The Black · Post by **Magnus The Black** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:40 am

I see X

Stahlgrim · Post by **Stahlgrim** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:42 am

My wife posted these on her blog at http://marandaclan.blogspot.com/

Magnus The Black · Post by **Magnus The Black** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:59 am

Those look nice.

LordWulf · Post by **LordWulf** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 11:00 am

Those look sweet, were they hard to make ???

Stahlgrim · Post by **Stahlgrim** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 11:34 am

No this was a surprisingly easy project in fact the longest part was filing the edges after I cut them on the beverly(I do't have any power at the shop right now).
the rolling and dishing/raising were minimal.
my first attempt was an abomination but after revamping the pattern mach 2 went well.
It took me about 5 hours to do this one but keep in mind about 3 of those were spent filing edges.
these are just rivited so welding would also add time

Animal · Post by **Animal** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 11:54 am

I like those a lot. To me it's a cool adaptation of history to the game we play. Real cool dog, real cool.

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 7:52 pm

Ah, those looks neat! The construction that I decided on with Dave Womble is to place the splinted steel pieces onto a leather backing with rivets, and have straps secure it on the back of the legs and arms... That's how I'm doing to do mine! But, this is a very interesting project, too... More difficult than my idea, I believe, so I'll stick with my plan for the sheer ease:p

No raising needed whatsoever!

Cheers, and once again, great job!

-Gregory-

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 1:35 am

I feel I need to chip in here. The evidence for splinted greaves/vambraces/bazubands among the Byzantines and Varangians is VERY thin on the ground. I know of only two contemporary pictures of people wearing them, of which only one - a single warrior out of hundreds illustrated - is from a Byzantine source (the Skylitzes Chronicle). The other is from a golden jug of either Hungarian or Bulgarian provenance.

Then there is a fairly non-specific reference in Emperor Maurice' Strategikon dated to the beginning of the 7th century referring to wooden greaves, which I believe could only be of splinted construction. That's it. Nothing else. Nada. Niente. This is far too little evidence for these being in common use among the Byzantines, let alone the Varangians. There was a recent discussion on (wooden) splinted greaves at http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... ian+splint where most of this got aired.

As far as the Vendel splinted armour goes, this is a single example only. I wouldn't be happy to assume they were common from only that evidence.

Not to detract from the armour itself, which is very pretty and well-made. But I really think we should be more wary about the assumption that these were used to any degree by the Byzantines, or the Varangians, or even the Vendel culture. Who knows? Maybe there is a stash of them lying around in some Byzantine/Varangian/Vendel gravesite, waiting to be discovered. In which case I will happily revise my opinions. But without more evidence . . .

Stahlgrim · Post by **Stahlgrim** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 9:16 am

Egfroth,
I am in the S.C.A. so I need to gear my armour to their rules of the list.
Now they may not have been commonplace but then neither am I :wink:

and as far as I know there is nothing exactaly like this in period.so I guess I should call'em fantasy or sport armour.
I was making bazubands which I like but are wrong for my persona when I came upon this Idea which if I am wearing a 3/4 sleeve tunic should look like splinted vambraces.
Now I could have gone with the typical strips of steel on leather vambrace attached to a elbow cop like so many others wear but I thought these would at least be a little closer to what was avalible to my persona in period.
I am going to do splinted greeves too.
mostly I am trying to comply with the sca rules of the list and still portray my persona as closely as the rules,history and my budget will allow.

in short
I like'em.
and untill I find a better solution I am gonna wear'em.
now if you want to give my a list legal kit that fits,is completely period and looks good I will happily give my kit away and only wear what you give me. :lol:

greg, I hope you have more success than I with the leather backed ones, I found that the leather was too flexible for how I was constructing these and didn't provide the protection I needed for the elbow joint. I look forward to seeing what you come up with.please post pics when you get'em done.

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:03 am

Hey Steven,

Although the armour was obviously not common, is it wrong for living history members or SCA fighters to wear it? Can we not tell people "This was an extremely rare form of armor, as far as we know, and the construction method used is theory, for the most part."

I see no hurt in using rare or odd items, even if the evidence is scarce... As long as you're willing to let people know that while they're admiring the pieces, I can't imagine any problems!

Stahlgrim,

I don't plan on using mine for combat, so, besides a comfort factor, I won't have to worry about much. The greaves are only going to come up to below my knee, and the bazubands (by the way, what's the difference between bazubands and vambraces? I was under the impression vambraces were lower arms...) are going to go from my wrist to my elbow.

I'll be sure to get pictures up when I'm done! For now I need to finish off some Mycenaean stuff, though..!

-Gregory-

Josh W · Post by **Josh W** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:06 am

I'm not satisfied that some sort of splinted limb defense wasn't in fairly common use by someone during this period. What about that account by the Monk of St. Gall(?) that describes Charlemagne wearing greaves of some sort, and his *entire host* as well. Even allowing for embellishment, it's clear that the concept lay well within the grasp of even someone as removed from military affairs as a monk.

Am I wrong here? The word used by the monk was "ocreis", IIRC, which means greave and nothing else, right? Were mail chausses in use by this time, and might the word have been applied to them?

Stahlgrim · Post by **Stahlgrim** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 12:34 pm

Damn I didn't mean to start another horse whipping contest guys.
Gregory,
Bazuband is the name commonly given to a combined forearm elbow defence in the SCA. ussualy one piece construction non articulated see the pattern by White mountain armoury here in the patterns section White mountain armoury,Clang armoury,Trueheart armoury all do some very nice versions in metal,House of the wolf and Gaa do some great work with leather bazubands and examples can be seen on their websites.
I think they originated in persia or india.
I made 1 set of stainless bazubands for myself but ended up giving them to a freind when I decided to make this version.

St. George · Post by **St. George** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 1:05 pm

I dumped using my splinted greaves around a year ago, becasuue i couldn't find sufficient evidence for them, and am now wearing red boots with shin gaurds inside them.

I am looking for something that will work better on my arms as well- but have not found that solution yet.

Until a good one comes up, bazubands will have to work.

Alaric

Mord · Post by **Mord** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 2:59 pm

DukeAlaric wrote:I dumped using my splinted greaves around a year ago, becasuue i couldn't find sufficient evidence for them, and am now wearing red boots with shin gaurds inside them.

I am looking for something that will work better on my arms as well- but have not found that solution yet.

Until a good one comes up, bazubands will have to work.

Alaric

The only splintered greaves that I know of are from the Valsgarde Cemetery in Sweden. Valsgarde 6, I believe. 7th century, I think. However, even these splints are only supposed to be for greaves. G. Arwidsson, who found them and first published them (in Acta Archaeologica for 1936 and later in the well named book Valsgarde 6) thought they were for a body armor. This concludsion was later refuted in an article in the Journal of the Arms and Armour Soceity (vol. 10, I think).

The splints, as I understand it, were found in a box in the grave. Large and small splints were found. I can send you some of the documentation, if you like. Considering the context of the find, the only safe conclusion is to say "we are not entirely sure."

Mord.

Animal · Post by **Animal** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 3:14 pm

Personally I think it's a pretty cool adaptation of a period armor to fit the game we play.
One thing I'll point out is that being unwilling to compromise on your own kit is one thing. That's up to you. But harshing another for the choices thay make in order to fight and cool shit AND protect themselves isnt really doing anyone any good. Just sayin.

Magnus The Black · Post by **Magnus The Black** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 3:17 pm

Animal wrote:Personally I think it's a pretty cool adaptation of a period armor to fit the game we play.
One thing I'll point out is that being unwilling to compromise on your own kit is one thing. That's up to you. But harshing another for the choices thay make in order to fight and cool shit AND protect themselves isnt really doing anyone any good. Just sayin.

Damn it Animal thats something we can agree on. :lol:

Templar Bob/De Tyre · Post by **Templar Bob/De Tyre** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 3:21 pm

Lord Magnus the Black wrote:
Animal wrote:Personally I think it's a pretty cool adaptation of a period armor to fit the game we play.
One thing I'll point out is that being unwilling to compromise on your own kit is one thing. That's up to you. But harshing another for the choices thay make in order to fight and cool shit AND protect themselves isnt really doing anyone any good. Just sayin.

Damn it Animal thats something we can agree on.

...I'm not really sure that's Egfroth's intent--it seems he went to great lengths to not harsh anyone on their choice of armour. He just pointed out that the evidence for Byzantine splinted armour was scant at best.

Animal · Post by **Animal** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 3:28 pm

To clarify:
I wasnt really trying to imply Egforth was being a dick. I have a lot of respect for him and the amazing amount of knowledge he has shown and his constant willingness to help others with their research, myself included. I was commenting in general. it's like the basket hilt/bargrill thing. Sure they're ugly and a pain in the ass, but you have to be willing to make a certain amount of compromise in order to play this game.
That was my point. Sorry if it appeared otherwise.

Magnus The Black · Post by **Magnus The Black** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 3:53 pm

Animal wrote:To clarify:
I wasnt really trying to imply Egforth was being a dick. I have a lot of respect for him and the amazing amount of knowledge he has shown and his constant willingness to help others with their research, myself included. I was commenting in general. it's like the basket hilt/bargrill thing. Sure they're ugly and a pain in the ass, but you have to be willing to make a certain amount of compromise in order to play this game.
That was my point. Sorry if it appeared otherwise.

Thats exactly how I understood it. It seems that sometimes we get a little to caught up in being 100% correct. I agree thats its important and we should do our best to look the part, BUT we also have to make consessions in order to be safe and meet the rules. I havn't seen a splinted example of his piece of armor but I have seen examples of splinted vambraces. The elbow must be covered and this is a good comprimise between what has to be and what can be documented. I also son't like the numerical example thing. Well only one od X was found so it must be rare. Thats not nessicarly true. 55' ford sedans didn't retain the popularity that 55' chevy sedans did but that doesn't mean that the 55' ford was rare. Hey the guy is trying. I think its a dman fine example. Is it 100% correct maybe not but it looks a hell of alot better than hockey gear and it meets the rules. Nothing wrong with having a nice looking kit that may not be 100% correct but at least meets the rules and at the same time retains the spirit of what the armour would look like. I try my best to make my kit look good and correct, it may not be 100% correct but it looks better than a hell of alot of other kits out there and its safe to fight in.

Sextus Maximus · Post by **Sextus Maximus** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 6:24 pm

I like them alot. I had a similar idea but instead they would be banded bazubands somewhat like lorica manica. Unfortunatley I" could never get the design right so I going to wait on it. I do like this desgin very much.

LordWulf · Post by **LordWulf** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 7:27 am

Any chance anyone has these pictures laying around still ????

Monkeyshine · Post by **Monkeyshine** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 7:38 am

copy and paste the URL from the properties of those little red X's into the address bar - worked for me

Very nice bazu's btw - I think I want to try

Ceramite · Post by **Ceramite** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 8:33 am

Hassin that works, thanks!

Sweet design!!! A nice pattern for the forum would be great

Samuel · Post by **Samuel** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:12 pm

you didnt roll the edges.....

BLANKENSHIELD WILL HAUNT YOU! :twisted:

no really, Id suggest rolling the wrist edges back on themselves... it will keep the basubands from riding down your arm and diggin your wrist up..

way cool Idea though

Stahlgrim · Post by **Stahlgrim** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 8:11 am

Yea, I didn't roll the edges I also didn't planish or polish them either.
as I said in the original post these are gen 2. I have done two more sets and I experimented with thickness ,material and slight variations in pattern.I have worked out the bugs in design and assembly and gen 5 is going together much quicker.If I am happy with the finished product I will then post a pattern to the site.I promise to roll the edges on them this time.

Justin Livio Guidi · Post by **Justin Livio Guidi** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 9:25 am

Wait, where did you say you got the pattern?

And Stahlgrim, about how much metal do you think you used?

-Justin

Halvgrimr · Post by **Halvgrimr** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:28 am

Witness, Egfroth, why I no longer offer advice here unless specifically asked;)

Halv

Stahlgrim · Post by **Stahlgrim** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:37 pm

Justin, I reworked the White Mountain Armoury Bazuband pattern that is found here on the Archive pattern page.I think I have used about 2.5-3 square feet I picked up 4 square feet at the local sheet metal place for the latest set and have a little under half left.
Halvgrim Please don't think I don't value the constructive critisism Egfroth has offered Both of you have done an amazing job researching and have a wealth of info that you have made avalible to us ignorant masses. As I posted before I probable should have called them sport or fantasy armour and if I have offended anyone I sincerly apologize.
But I stand by my statement that if anyone out there wants to Give me a completely period kit that fits me and meets the sca rules of the list and dosn't look like the dogs breakfast I am more then willing to put it on and not wear any other kit. :wink:

Halvgrimr · Post by **Halvgrimr** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:49 pm

Stahlgrim wrote:Justin, I reworked the White Mountain Armoury Bazuband pattern that is found here on the Archive pattern page.I think I have used about 2.5-3 square feet I picked up 4 square feet at the local sheet metal place for the latest set and have a little under half left.
Halvgrim Please don't think I don't value the constructive critisism Egfroth has offered Both of you have done an amazing job researching and have a wealth of info that you have made avalible to us ignorant masses. As I posted before I probable should have called them sport or fantasy armour and if I have offended anyone I sincerly apologize.
But I stand by my statement that if anyone out there wants to Give me a completely period kit that fits me and meets the sca rules of the list and dosn't look like the dogs breakfast I am more then willing to put it on and not wear any other kit.

--No offense taken on this end Stahlgrim
Being SCA as well as a LH guy I understand the subtle differences.
No need to label them fantasy IMO, the fact that you stated they were for SCA combat was good enough for me.

I was just yanking Eggies chain more than anything;)

Halv

BdeB · Post by **BdeB** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 1:55 pm

I can't see any pictures....