I wanna Be in the Teutonic Order Circa 1200AD

Robert of Canterbury · Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:15 am

What makes them different to any other Macejowski Knight?

Lets look at both Knights and Serjants

Robert

"Oh Tannenburg, Oh Tannenburg,
Where thund'ring hooves on Ice were heard....."

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 10:25 am

To be honest, in 1200 they wouldn't be wearing Maciejowski stuff. They'd be more like the guys here (produced in Italy, under the (German) Holy Roman Emperor, c. 1195) and here (the original was produced in Strasbourg in Alsace, end of the 12th century, but unfortunately it was destroyed by fire and all we have now is this early 19th century copy).

chrisvika · Post by **chrisvika** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:55 pm

I researched the Tutonic Order at a later period (at the time of the battle of Tannenberg). One interesting thing I discovered was that, when not under arms, they wore monk's habits made up of ankle length black wollen tunics and black hose. These were frequently worn with black pill-box type hats.

When under arms, they wore white surcoats with a black cross. I read in a couple of secondary sources that the sargents wore grey surcoats with Tau crosses, but I never found the primary source for this.

I don't beleve the ordenances changet that much between your period and the early 15th century.

Haldan · Post by **Haldan** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:31 am

Interesting. My brother is working on a Teutonic persona from this time frame and since I am the research worm in the family, I've been collecting a handfull of sources. Here is some of the things that I have gleaned:

"The German princes and magnates were in full agreement that the aforesaid house should have the regulations of the Hospital of St. John concerning the sick and the poor, as in the past, but for the rest should have the Rule of the Militia of the Temple with regards to clerics, knights and other brothers."
-- Narracio de primordiis ordinis Teutonici, 1198

The following from http://www.chivalricorders.org/vatican/teutonic.htm
Some forty knights were received into the new Order at its foundation by the King of Jerusalem and Frederick of Swabia, who selected their first Master in the name of the Pope and Emperor. The knights of the new confraternity had to be of German birth (although this rule was occasionally relaxed), a unique requirement among the Crusader Orders founded in the Holy Land. They were drawn predominately from the noble or knightly class, although this latter obligation was not formally incorporated into the rule until much later. Their white habit, charged with a black cross, was worn over a white tunic, a uniform recognized by the Patriarch of Jerusalem and confirmed by the Pope in 1211. The waves of German knights and pilgrims who followed the Third Crusade brought considerable wealth to the new German Hospital as well as recruits. Never as numerous in the Holy Land as either the Hospitaller or Templar Orders, the Teutonic knights were nonetheless a formidable power.

Master Heinrich von Walpot (died 1200), who led the knights in their first decade came from the Rhineland. He begun by drawing up the Order's statutes, ready by 1199, which were confirmed by Innocent III in the Bull Sacrosancta romana of February 19, 1199. These divided the knights into two classes, knights and priests, the former being obliged to take the triple monastic vows of poverty, chastity and obedience as well as promise to aid the sick and fight the Infidel. Unlike the knights, who from the early thirteenth century had to prove "ancient nobility", the priests were relieved of this obligation and their function was to celebrate the Mass and other religious offices, to administer the sacraments to the knights and the sick in their hospitals and follow them as almoners into war. Priests brothers could not become Masters, Commanders or even Vice-Commanders in either Lithuania or Prussia, but could become Commanders in Germany. Later these two ranks were augmented by a third class, of serving brothers (Sergeants, or GraumÃƒÂ¤ntler), who wore a similar mantle but in gray rather than white and charged with only three branches of the Cross to indicate that they were not full members of the confraternity (the TAU cross). "

The white habit of the Teutones was very similar to that of the Templars. This right was granted them by the Holy Roman Emperor Frederick II. Their black cross was similar in shape to that of the Cross of Jerusalem (four T's radiating from a centre-point).

Teutone sergeants wore grey habit with a Tau cross (looking like a single capital T).

Some good info is at: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14541b.htm

Hope this helps!

Russ Holmes

chrisvika · Post by **chrisvika** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:28 pm

I found my old bibliography. Here are some titles:

The Knight and Chivalry
Cambridge Medieval History, Vol. VII
The Origins of Prussia
The Northern Crusades: The Baltic and Catholic Frontier, 1100-1525 (Highly recommended)
Codex Manesse
Die Statiten des Deutschen Ordens nach den alesten Handschriften (text in German, Old French, Dutch, and Old German)
The Military Orders from the Twelfth to the Early Fourteenth Centuries (very good info on the organization, rules, recruitment, and military activities of all the military orders)
Mary-Verse of the Teutonic Order
The Teutonic order in Prussia
The Monks of War
The Prussian Crusade
Rise and Fall of the Teutonic Order in Prussia
800 Jahre Deuscher Orden (Text in German, this is the catalog from a 1990 exhibition, it has a large number of very useful visual sources)

1200 would be pretty early for the Teutonic Order, since the Pope only offically recognized them in 1199. The 14th century was their true glory days. Let me know if I can give you any other information, and I'd be glad to forward it (maybe you should contact me off list). I did a ton of research back in the early 90's, but my group did that impression only twice. I'd be happy if it were useful to someone.

Andres von Malbork · Post by **Andres von Malbork** » Mon Aug 28, 2006 1:07 pm

A little late, but a good chance to show off my teutonic character.

I am not sure how this forum works yet, so I am not sure IÂ´ll manage to post a picture or not. Well.. letÂ´s hope for the best.

Andres von Malbork · Post by **Andres von Malbork** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 5:01 am

GodfryWarinsin wrote:Andres
What is the name of the style of helmet? I love the look of it and have been searching for a pattern for something like that for about a month now without success. Would you be willing to share the pattern?

So sorry for the late answer, but every year after the "medieval season" I get very tired of it all and donÂ´t bother to look in the forums.

The pattern is from a russian armourer who designed it from a childrens book about knights.

http://helmschmiedt.narod.ru/

However, he told me before that he was going to remove the pattern from his site, but fortunately I have it all in my computer.

I can send it to yo if you give me your email. The text is in russian however, though I got it translated into swedish.

If you look on the link below you can see that this kind of helmet started to take form in the late 12 th century, however, I do not believe that this rather pointy facevisor ever existed in such helmets. But it is very easy just to use the shape of the visorpart and make it more round as seen in the pictures.

http://www.historiavivens1300.at/helme/index.htm

Toshido · Post by **Toshido** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 11:09 pm

I am starting on a Teutonic persona for SCA fighting. I am aiming for right around 1200AD and plan on a sergeant persona. What I am curious about is best guesses, or better, about the shade of grey to use.
So far in my online readings I have only read nothing more about the grey surcoats than what has been posted here. So any suggestions?

Oswyn_de_Wulferton · Post by **Oswyn_de_Wulferton** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 12:33 pm

I would look into grey medieval dyes, and see if you can get some samples from different methods. Find a method that they used close to 1200, and use that as a basis.

Baron von Stadler · Post by **Baron von Stadler** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:10 pm

Most sources have it more of a light grey such as this http://www.sugareestitches.com/fabrics/ ... htGrey.jpg

Oswyn is right about how you could really try and see, but I think the effort vs payoff would not be anywhere near equal. Most sources point towards the color I linked.

Caileigh · Post by **Caileigh** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:10 pm

www.griffindyeworks.com

These guys sell period dye-stuffs. I've been reading about weaving and dyes, but unfortunately not your place and time. There are lots of books with this kind of information, and some of it can be found online. That website itself has some information, and they have a book...which I thought I'd gotten with my recent order but I'm not finding.

Anyway, different places and times used different dyestuffs to create different colors. The prices of period dye stuff aren't so high either, it's more the mess and learning the skills that I think puts people off. Some of it you can even get out of the garden yourself.

With grey some of the color that was common would have been because of fading, so you may want to aim for a slightly darker color and expect it to fade. Not all natural period dyes fade easily, but black/grey tends to.

Anyway, if you get stuck and want to PM me I can do a bit of searching for you. I've got about 5 books beside my bed right now that could hold the answer to your question about dye color. I'm not a great expert, but I'm learning, and planning a dyers garden of my own.

Caileigh

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:12 pm

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:47 pm

The Silver Shrine of Charlemagne, c.1200-1215 Thanks to Egfroth for the links.

http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/MI00007g07a.jpg
http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/MI00007g08a.jpg
http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/MI00007g09a.jpg
http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/MI00007g10a.jpg
http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/MI00007d12a.jpg

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:55 pm

The Liber ad Honorem Augusti from 1199, pretty close to c. 1200, huh?

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/ ... iculis-bbb
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Categ ... em_Augusti

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:27 pm

The Huntingfield Psalter, c. 1210-1220, Morgan Library M.43

http://utu.morganlibrary.org/medren/sin ... A000079557
http://utu.morganlibrary.org/medren/sin ... A000079558
http://utu.morganlibrary.org/medren/sin ... A000079564
http://utu.morganlibrary.org/medren/sin ... A000079565
http://utu.morganlibrary.org/medren/sin ... A000079571
http://utu.morganlibrary.org/medren/sin ... A000079577
http://utu.morganlibrary.org/medren/sin ... A000079580

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 3:07 am

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:56 am

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:24 pm

shortie-n · Post by **shortie-n** » Sun Feb 14, 2010 2:57 pm

hey guys im getting together a kit well two kits for the Teutonic order for this summer both need to be c.1275 i know its later than this post but i could really do with the help.
the two kits are more three two knight kits and one woman's kit from this period a nun or that would do were there any associated with this group and did they have there own dress?. two fighting kits one must have a full face helm
i got loads of info on early periods elsewhere then saw this post and could do with help. i need a kit suitable for reenactment combat so i need advice on there clothes and weapons at this period.
as for armour i need any patterns you have for helmets. and as many types you know of that they would have worn.
i think thats all really also what sort of banners/heraldry would they have had?
please if anyone can help i will be hugely grateful.
thanks in advance.

Cossack Odo · Post by **Cossack Odo** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:36 pm

To play the thread necromancer:
What would be the most appropriate helmet styles for the Teutonic Knights, between 1200 and 1275? Its a wide range, but I am still working on the details of my kit and tis information would be helpful to the otehr posters aswell.

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:31 pm

For the period 1200-1220 you're probably looking at conical or rounded helms without nasals. 1220 to 1250 sees the introduction of face masks and increasing occipital protection, but largely flat-top helms with relatively straight sides. 1250-1275 will likely be "barrel" helms, though some riveted sugarloafs might appear by the end of that time. Sergeants might have been equipped with kettle hats throughout, and may have continued using outdated forms for an additional 15-20 years after the knights discarded them.

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Sat Apr 02, 2011 2:09 pm

Never mind. Spam post is gone. :)

DeCalmont · Post by **DeCalmont** » Sat Apr 02, 2011 3:19 pm

Effingham wrote:WTF? Spamming bastiges?

Y'know, a "report post" function might be useful, too.

I deleted the offending post

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:45 pm

YAY!!!

Lüthold töten Kaninchen · Tue May 29, 2012 8:04 am

I do apologize for a thread necro, but I was curious of creating armour similar to the fourth Grand Master of the Teutonic Knights
[represented here]

Would this armour befit a member of the Teutonic Knights in the mid-late 1200s? (Or a former Teutonic Knight?)
Lüthold

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Tue May 29, 2012 9:29 am

Luthold, that's late 16th century armour.

Lüthold töten Kaninchen · Tue May 29, 2012 9:43 am

Effingham wrote:Luthold, that's late 16th century armour.

After going back and looking over the picture, I realize the smaaaaall nuance ...

Hermannus de Saltza, 17th century, Deutschordenshaus, Vienna listed under the picture, but listed on the Hermann von Salza page. Sigh, stupid wikipedia.

Thanks!

Vermillion · Post by **Vermillion** » Tue May 29, 2012 2:54 pm

The Teutonic Order no longer existed after 1524. At that point the last existing portion of the order, surrendered and became the Duchy of Prussia. Subjects of the King of Poland.

Sergeant Marli · Post by **Sergeant Marli** » Tue May 29, 2012 11:06 pm

Lüthold,

Are you set on the armour, or on the Order? If it is more the armour, I would personally look at recreating a Knight Hospitaller at the Seige of Malta in 1565.

Lüthold töten Kaninchen · Wed May 30, 2012 8:16 pm

Serjeant Marli wrote:Lüthold,

Are you set on the armour, or on the Order? If it is more the armour, I would personally look at recreating a Knight Hospitaller at the Seige of Malta in 1565.

I think I am more set on the armour. I am still new to all of this, so it's like I feel like I have ADD. "Oh look a shiney" and off I go. Thank You for the suggestion, I will look into it. I have found an armour set similar to the set pictured (just a shinier version)
http://www.illusionarmoring.com/bgsuit.htm

Lüthold

Sergeant Marli · Post by **Sergeant Marli** » Wed May 30, 2012 9:52 pm

Before buying any armor PLEASE do a search of their name. If you get zero hits ask the board in the classified section.

For example, do a search of "review ice falcon" and another "review illusion Armoury"

Lüthold töten Kaninchen · Wed May 30, 2012 10:34 pm

Serjeant Marli wrote:Before buying any armor PLEASE do a search of their name. If you get zero hits ask the board in the classified section.

For example, do a search of "review ice falcon" and another "review illusion Armoury"

Appreciate the advice

I did just that viewtopic.php?f=3&t=138100&hilit=review ... on+Armoury

Seems on the up and up ^.^

Paladin74 · Post by **Paladin74** » Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:22 pm

Andres von Malbork wrote:A little late, but a good chance to show off my teutonic character.
I am not sure how this forum works yet, so I am not sure IÂ´ll manage to post a picture or not. Well.. letÂ´s hope for the best.

Anyone know who made that helmet? Its gorgeous!

Malina · Post by **Malina** » Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:57 am

I'm gonna threadnecro a little here.

My father is joining the SCA and has decided he wants to be a Teutonic knight from the 14th centry, during the time that the knights held Marienburg.

I need help with a couple of things:
1. Name. It seems like the only names I can find are those of the grand masters. I'd assume that not every knight is Name von Place, but maybe they are? And given the SCA ideal of everyone is a noble, then I could assume his persona's name would be Name Von Place. Where would I find a good refence for these "places?" Or would he have a "regular" surname?

2. There are a lot of resources for that the knights wore as far as armor goes, but what about their "civvies?" I assume we aren't going to be wearing full plate to dinner.

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:07 pm

The Manesse Codex Cpg 848 dates to your period in question, though it's south German/Swiss in origin. There are plenty of pictures of clothing for both men and women, and the top of each page contains the name of those depicted--Herzog (duke), Graf (Count), Her (Lord)...---which should give some ideas for name formulation. Monks would be "Bruder" xxx Brother Heinrich, etc.. Be aware that members of the Teutonic Order are monks, so their "civvies" are the monastic robes appropriate for their order.

http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/cpg848

Folio 264 recto shows der Tanhauser, in his monastic robes. There is some discussion over his headgear, which is probably a pillbox hat resting on a pillow, but might represent some sort of linen drape.

http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/cpg848/0523

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