linen for jacks

Captain Jamie · Post by **Captain Jamie** » Sat Mar 23, 2002 2:53 pm

I have a lead on 10-12 oz. linen in natural color for 5.00 a yard. Width will vary between 45 in. to 55-60 depending on which bolt they decide to pull from. I may have some say in this I am not sure yet. It needs to be bought in 50 yard bolts to get that price. I am checking on how many bolts they have available. Is any body interested in a group buy for this? It would be good for sacks and bags as well as jacks and gambesons.
I am thinking that I will look for interest, set a date for checks and MOs to be in and then order the linen. Cost should be price plus shipping and any box costs. What do you think of doing this in two steps: First check is for the linen, and the second check is to defray the shipping cost on a per-yard-ordered basis and to pick up the shipping to your address.
Oh yeah, anybody got a notion of how much yardage goes into one of these? I have seen A. Harmands drawings of this and it looks like less than one might think at first but does any body know? I would be interested in a comparison of the yardage neccessary to make the cover and then the multiples of that yardage for the interior layers.

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Captain Jamie-a marvellous valorous gentleman, that is certain

[This message has been edited by Captain Jamie (edited 03-23-2002).]

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Sat Mar 23, 2002 6:51 pm

First off, is it 100% flax linen? That I can get for $8.00 a yard from Hamilton Dry Goods. If it is the same stuff with no synthetics, I need at least 10 yards for my 12 C. gown and brigadine projects. No shipping required!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Mar 23, 2002 8:50 pm

Yeah, it is 100% flax? If it is, I'm interested. Also, what color is the linen? How reliable is the manufactuer? One more thing, how much would I need for one 14th century arming jack? I plan on it being padded and I wear a large shirt. That would be that it would have .5 inch, or 1.27 cm for those who don't know inches. Thanks! You all are the greatest!

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Sun Mar 24, 2002 12:16 am

About 4 yards if you don't screw up. As far as colour is concerned, he said it was natural, which is a sand colour. Linen is more difficult to dye than wool or cotton, requiring different moridants to fix it to the fibres. I have a gambeson dyed with walnut shells, and it is only slightly darker. I am going to try to dye the 12th C. gown I wish to make with natural dyes, so I will post my success or failure.

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Sun Mar 24, 2002 12:59 am

If you want to start with white/bleached linen

5.9 oz: 3.28/yd: http://fabrics-store.com/first.php?goto=big_fabric&fabric_id=3

Amalric Unomen · Post by **Amalric Unomen** » Sun Mar 24, 2002 2:02 am

Rev, the heaviest stuff they have is 7-7.5oz.
That will probably work for my arming doublet, but for a jack dunno.

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Sun Mar 24, 2002 4:34 am

I think the cap'n source will be cheaper for the thickerstuff, but as someone mentioned a gown they wanted to make, i figured I'd share the specific product ID for some really CHEAP linen...

-+G

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Sun Mar 24, 2002 8:51 am

Hi All,

If by jack you mean a 15th century infantrymans defence, then there is much more than 4 yards going into it. Said item was up to 20 layers thick of layered cloth, with no padding in it (had to be cut away at waist or elbows to allow bending).

Sinric made one of the thinnest I have seen described, which is ten internal layers, and two more counting a cover. This is described in the Abbeville ordinance of 1473 as being acceptable wear for a mounted archer when worn in conjunction with a mail shirt. At this few layers, the garment is still soft & flexible, andthe pinning stitches give the visual effect of a quileted garment.

Wolfe Argent has a reconstruction by a friend that is some 20 layers thick. Unfortunately, our friend didn't consider or know about jacks having been cut away a few layers (prabably down to 10) at the waist and elbows to allow for movement. The end result is a semi - rigid body armour that will stand up by itself. It is such a solid defence, I sincerely doubt the ability of a swordsman to cut through it with a blow - it would only fail due to a repeated flury of blows (indeed - according to Louis XIs ordinance of 1481 where he describes jacks to be worn & constructed for military use near identical to this example, the king states he has never seen as many as a half dozen men in all his years killed while wearing one by sword or arrow). The wearer would be very well protected from single hand weapons of any sort. A two handed mass weapon (a halberd, for instance) would lay them low with a blow in all probibility, and a shot to the rest of the body would no doubt cripple them, but it is still an effective and cheap defense for the torso.

The heavy duty jack we have, I have no doubt would provide adequate torso protection for SCA combat, even without rigid inserts (obviously the wording of the rules wouldn't allow this). That said, the wearer would have the same sorts of troubles some people wearing plate would "feeling good blows".

That said, you can use your four yards for a cover, and make the rest of the layers out of junk like muslin. Then again, at $5 a yard, why not make the whole item out of linen.

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Bob R.

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Sun Mar 24, 2002 1:54 pm

chef: Do you have any data on the thickness of cloth used? was it 20 layers of sheer linen? or 20 layers of linen canvas? Was anything other than linen ever used? (hemp comes to mind as an option)

-+G

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun Mar 24, 2002 2:29 pm

Captain Jamie: Are you talking about cloth4less.com? If you are, it is 100% flax. I would be interested, but don't know how much I need for what I am doing. I will figure it out and then post. Ok, Thanks all!

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Torr O'Neal
The Irish, Norwegian Merc

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun Mar 24, 2002 2:33 pm

Oh yeah, forgot to mention a lot earlier, I would be stuffing it with flax tow. Ok, I think I have everything covered. Now, with that knowlege, how much fabric for a man the wears a size large shirt? Thanks!

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Torr O'Neal
The Irish, Norwegian Merc

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Sun Mar 24, 2002 6:37 pm

By 4 yards I meant one layer, sorry.
Rev. I'll get back to you with pics about the gown when I get the film developed. I'm not sure WHAT I need, actually.

Captain Jamie · Post by **Captain Jamie** » Mon Mar 25, 2002 5:59 am

Hey all.
Yes it is from cloth4less.com and yes it is 100% linen. Bascot, would I offer you less?
Color will probably be that beige-with-a-hint-of-green color of unbleached linen.
Chef- I have a picture of a reconstruction in G. Embollton's Medieval Military Costume that shows the internal layers to be fairly heavy. Looking at period portrayals of the jack in paintings etc. this seems to be born out by the percieved bulk vs the number of internal layers that are recorded in ordinances. But is there anything that points to the actual weight used? What weight of fabric did Sinric and your friend use for their jacks and how many total yards? I am thinking something less than 80 (4 yards to the layer times 20 layers).
I am planning to make a mock up with cheap jute canvas as the fill before I cut (even this cheap) linen.
Oh yeah, this would work for sacks, bags, banners,etc.

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Captain Jamie-a marvellous valorous gentleman, that is certain

[This message has been edited by Captain Jamie (edited 03-25-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Captain Jamie (edited 03-25-2002).]

Gaston de Clermont · Post by **Gaston de Clermont** » Mon Mar 25, 2002 6:47 pm

I'd be interested in 15 yards.
Gaston de Clermont

Payn · Post by **Payn** » Mon Mar 25, 2002 8:33 pm

I'm in for at least 10 yards. Maybe as much as 10 more depending on the timing of the money

Fritz

Sinric · Post by **Sinric** » Mon Mar 25, 2002 8:52 pm

Captain Jamie:

My padded jack used about 20 yards of 60" wide fabric and is between a medium and a large in shirt sizes. The 8 inside layers are about a 6oz. linen and the shell is 10oz. hemp. Cloth4less is sending me a swatch so Chef de chambre and myself can see what the fabric is like.

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Craig Nadler
cwn@nh.ultranet.com
http://www.eskimo.com/~cwn/

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Mar 26, 2002 7:55 am

I'll go in for ten yards, too. Have you found out how much is actually available at that price?

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Morgan d'Antioche
DarkHeart Armoury "... a tradition of Fine, Custom Armour since last Tuesday."

Captain Jamie · Post by **Captain Jamie** » Tue Mar 26, 2002 1:31 pm

Thanks for the interest in this.
So far we have:
T-Bob 10 yards
Clermont 15 Yards
banzaimf 10 yards min
D'Antioche 10 yards
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total 45 yards leaving me with out enough to to do anything so I guess we will need a second bolt. I myself want about 30 yards for various projects.
I have not received information on how many bolts are available. It does look like shipping from their warehouse is free though, so the total cost per yard will be price plus cost to ship to your address from mine.
Given Sinric's experience does any body want to up their order?
Sinric, just how viable are the two jacks that you have up there for fullspeed/full contact play? Would you feel comfortable taking a spear to the belly from a ticked of Atlantian duke in either or both of these? Chef-how heavy was the fabric in the stout jack that you mentioned?

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Captain Jamie-a marvellous valorous gentleman, that is certain

[This message has been edited by Captain Jamie (edited 03-26-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Captain Jamie (edited 03-26-2002).]

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Mar 26, 2002 2:20 pm

Throw me in for 10 yards. I could always improvise something to make from any excess.

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Torr O'Neal
The Irish, Norwegian Merc

Captain Jamie · Post by **Captain Jamie** » Tue Mar 26, 2002 2:25 pm

They have a thousand yards in stock. I think we won't be exhausting them soon.

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Captain Jamie-a marvellous valorous gentleman, that is certain

Sinric · Post by **Sinric** » Tue Mar 26, 2002 3:23 pm

Captain Jamie:

The 10-layer padded jack isn't something I would even consider using by itself in SCA rattan combat. It isn't even vaguely rigid. However that being said I've seen people fight in a much thinner gambeson and a large weight lifters belt. It all depends and what calibration is like in your area and how much pain your willing to put up with. Keep in mind that 10 layers of 10oz. fabric will be heavier then 8 layers of 6oz. and 2 layers of 10oz.. I would tend to think that a 20 layer padded jack would be made of something like a 4 to 6 oz. fabric however 10oz. fabric would work nicely for a 10 layer padded jack.

The 20 layer padded jack that Chef de Chambre is talking about was made by someone in another living history group. It is very heavy and doesn't move very well. It may well be rigid enough for SCA combat it isn't really useable.

The main problem with a padded jack is that it won't even be close to being rigid unless it's so heavy (and thick) that it's hard to move your arms.

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Craig Nadler
cwn@nh.ultranet.com
http://www.eskimo.com/~cwn/

Captain Jamie · Post by **Captain Jamie** » Tue Mar 26, 2002 10:15 pm

Sinric-overall ridgidity is not what I am particularly after. To meet minimum standards I would use some hidden plates for the kidneys and sports elbows underneath (or maybe one piece gothic elbows pointed on). I don't use any other arm protection now so this would be an improvement! I am interested in finding out how well the jack dissipates force. If it does all right I may make one my summer armor and use a thinner one as padding for my brig for Pas's and cooler weather.

Torr brings us to 55+ yards plus what I want.
Can we get checks in by April 15th?
Shipping is free by UPS ground and that should take 5-7 days. Do you want to pay on an estimate of shipping costs at the same time or do COD or get an exact price at the PO and then send a check?

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Captain Jamie-a marvellous valorous gentleman, that is certain

Tim Finkas · Post by **Tim Finkas** » Tue Mar 26, 2002 11:01 pm

Here's an impression of a Wars of the Roses era stuffed jack I made by encasing panels of thick wool carpet padding inside a shell of heavy cotton duck, then hand-quilting it. Thought you'd might like to see the photos.

<img src=http://finkas.home.netcom.com/ArmourArchive/WORJack.jpg>

<img src=http://finkas.home.netcom.com/ArmourArchive/WOTR.jpg>

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<A HREF="http://finkas.home.netcom.com/Forgerie/Index.html" TARGET=_blank>
The Historical Forgerie</A>
Maker of fine phonies & fabulous fakes since 1982

[This message has been edited by Tim Finkas (edited 04-08-2002).]

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Mar 27, 2002 3:10 pm

Send me your e-mail and I can get you a payment. Mine is in my profile. Do you do PayPal, because if you do, I can get you your payment much faster. Ok, I think that's everything. Thank you so very much!

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Torr O'Neal
The Irish, Norwegian Merc

Captain Jamie · Post by **Captain Jamie** » Fri Mar 29, 2002 1:48 pm

Bump. I am waiting on the swatch to make sure that it is workable. Pig in a poke and all that. Torr-my email is in my profile.

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Captain Jamie-a marvellous valorous gentleman, that is certain

[This message has been edited by Captain Jamie (edited 03-29-2002).]

Captain Jamie · Post by **Captain Jamie** » Mon Apr 08, 2002 7:59 pm

I have not recieved my swatch and emails to their service address bounce. So I think I may have lost this lead, sorry. If I can reestablish communication with them I'll let every one know. Sinric-did you get a swatch?

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Captain Jamie-a marvellous valorous gentleman, that is certain

Sinric · Post by **Sinric** » Mon Apr 08, 2002 9:52 pm

Funny you should ask, I just received it today. The fabric doesn't look anywhere near heavy enough to be a 10-12oz. fabric. My best guess is that it is a 4oz. fabric.

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Craig Nadler
cwn@nh.ultranet.com
http://www.eskimo.com/~cwn/

Captain Jamie · Post by **Captain Jamie** » Mon Apr 08, 2002 10:45 pm

Hmmmm. I think this bears more investigation than I have computer talent for. Anybody got any ideas on making contact? Tracking the IP to a phone or ISP that would cough up a number or address?

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Captain Jamie-a marvellous valorous gentleman, that is certain

Captain Jamie · Post by **Captain Jamie** » Wed Apr 10, 2002 11:33 pm

I got a call from Cloth4less. They are having a problem with their email. Swatchs are being sent. They have a couple of different linens, one is more tightly woven then the other. When I have seen the stuff I'll report. Thank you for your attention.

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Captain Jamie-a marvellous valorous gentleman, that is certain

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun Apr 14, 2002 7:29 pm

Hey there! You got the swatches yet? I just got back from Spring Break and am now checking the boards. Do you think that the linen that we all are getting will be the same that Sinric got or something heavier? Thanks! Sorry I haven't got my payment out yet, but it will be in the mail tormorrow. Ok, sorry once again!

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Torr O'Neal
The Irish, Norwegian Merc

Captain Jamie · Post by **Captain Jamie** » Mon Apr 15, 2002 9:17 am

Torr- No the swatches have not arrived. I expect them this week. I certainly hope that it is heavier than what Sinric got. This company is supplying to small companies in the L.A. fasion district I would hope that that means that they know what they are about and that if the swatch that Sinric got was light that it was due to an error.
A couple of my local people are interested when I get figures out of them I will update the "Total Order" so that we can see how much we are getting.
To All- Do not forget that this material should be 50-60 inches wide. This may change the number of yards that you need for your project.

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Captain Jamie-a marvellous valorous gentleman, that is certain

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Mon Apr 15, 2002 11:10 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">If you want to start with white/bleached linen
5.9 oz: 3.28/yd: http://fabrics-store.com/first.php?goto=big_fabric&fabric_id=3[/QUOTE]

Thanks, Rev. George, I ordered some last Friday. I'll let you know how it works out.

Captain Jamie · Post by **Captain Jamie** » Fri Apr 26, 2002 9:05 am

Well it seems that the linen is a bust on two counts. I got in the swatches and they corraborate what Sinric found. The stuff is not 10oz. Further their site is not listing the linen at all now. 1000 yards may have gone fast.
If anybody has shipped a check I will return it in the mail pronto. Do you want it to be marked void so that it can't be stolen and cashed?
I have a call into Cloth4less to find out what the swatches really are and when they might have heavy linen in stock. My appologies for getting peoples' expectations up.

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Captain Jamie-a marvellous valorous gentleman, that is certain

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Apr 26, 2002 2:13 pm

It's cool. I expected as much. Oh well. Thanks anyway.

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Torr O'Neal
Minor Nobility of Norther Ireland with Norweigan Roots.