Assessment (Atlantia)

[Vladimir]

I would have worn my maille if I had known someone was taking pictures.

http://ursus.smugmug.com/gallery/681115/6/29510138


who else is here?

[Chris G.]

Baron Vlad,

Its probably best that you didn't. The heat index ended up being around 106 shortly before the fighting ended for the day. There will always be other times for cool pictures.

[Vladimir]

Its a tradeoff really.

The maille helps keep me cooler by allowing airflow between my gambeson and my lamellar.

On the other hand it adds a lot of extra weight.

[Uilleag]

I was wearing my mail, that's me on the far right of the Pic. You're right, the heat was brutal, but the fighting was very fun!

<IMG src="http://ursus.smugmug.com/photos/29510117-M.jpg">

[Kenwrec Wulfe]

That is a new helm since I saw you last. Lookin mighty spiff there, my friend.

[Uilleag]

The helm and plaques were made Sir Raymond of Raymond's Quiet Press. It was a Gulf Wars purchase, it was time to upgrade helms....but of course, now I'm looking at another helm to go with the 14c harness that I am thinking of putting together for Crown next spring.....we'll see.

[Vladimir]

I saw you there, nice helmet btw



I met another archiver while I was there, one I didn't know. We were discussing the metal lamellar he was wearing.

Speak up if you read this post, because I can't remember your name.

[Broadway]

I was there with a new helm too.

[Rev. George]

hey matt, you dont happen to have an old helm lying around do you?

-+G

[Broadway]

hey matt, you dont happen to have an old helm lying around do you?

My bascinet is polished and sitting on a shelf, awaiting a Pas d' Arms.

That's the only other one I have.

[Forkbeard]

I met another archiver while I was there, one I didn't know. We were discussing the metal lamellar he was wearing.

Speak up if you read this post, because I can't remember your name.

Hey Vladimir, that was me! I was one of the original lamellar order folks a few years back - ended up with aluminum. (http://ursus.smugmug.com/gallery/681115/8/29510211 - fighting spear/lower left). My kit is in a bit of disrepair here. Come to think of it, it always is. Very nice meeting you/talking to you.

Ulfr

[Brother Logan]

So many good looking kits . Ruined by so many silly gigantic shields. Come on folks heaters are not supposed to be that big! .
Cheers,
Leo

[Brother Logan]

So many good looking kits . Ruined by so many silly gigantic shields. Come on folks heaters are not supposed to be that big! .
Cheers,
Leo

[DELETEMYACCOUNT]

If you're gonna fight on foot and carry a shield, why not carry a big one? As long as you can fight around it, what's the big deal?

[Uilleag]

The big deal, Animal, is that they aren't historically accurate to go with all of the nice harness being used. The same defense can be gained with a properly sized heater and the offense becomes a lot more varried.

Usually most folks can't fight around the shield, so they displace it to throw their shots....then there are those that can fight around the large shield because they are large people....those are the ones you have to really look out for!

[Broadway]

Come on folks heaters are not supposed to be that big!

How big should they be? Is there a certain size you can't hit around?

Should I get one smaller than that?

[DELETEMYACCOUNT]

The big deal, Animal, is that they aren't historically accurate to go with all of the nice harness being used. The same defense can be gained with a properly sized heater and the offense becomes a lot more varried.

Usually most folks can't fight around the shield, so they displace it to throw their shots....then there are those that can fight around the large shield because they are large people....those are the ones you have to really look out for!

Now granted this is a little late period for what I've read mostly about, but weren't shields still pretty big for fighting on foot until full plate took over?
History aside, if you arent gonna get the benefit of the armor you're wearing you sorta have to fight as if unarmored, and that means big honking shields. See Hoplons and Scuta for reference.
And my big shield never gives me any problems at all and I'm a wee lil thing

[James B.]

Most heaters are only slightly bigger than the Black Prince's shield with his tomb. His is 29 inches tall by 24 inches wide, my standard size aluminum heater is 22 or 24 by 36. It is 7 inches taller, but I am not riding a horse either.

Considering what we do is nothing like real tournaments or combat who really cares?

[Uilleag]

For me, I have found that a shield the width of my shoulders and the length no longer than form chin to crotch is perfect. Especially with a heater with all of the coners to catch incoming shots. It's surprising how little a shield needs to be moved if it covers properly. The size I mention here, completely covers the torso and the angles of the shield can cover everything else.

Of course, I personally hate heaters, they just aren't the style shield I prefer. I like Kites, rounds and ovals.

[DELETEMYACCOUNT]

Yah, it's amazing how easy it gets when you arent blocking your knees or shins innit. I've found that a big shield weilded properly covers better, confounds your opponent better and is a lot of fun.
I dont like heaters either. I know how effective they are, no worries. Just not my thing. The first attempt at a domed wooden round shield went ok, Tarkhan is gonna redo the apparatus and we'll try again. He did a great job on the first attempt though, pretty cool.

[Brother Logan]

I know this is SCA fighting but if you are going to make an attempt at period armour, I say go for broke and lose the gi-nor-mo shield for one that is a bit smaller and learn how to use it corectly. Skill, not size, wins the day (unless you are in the biggest shield tourny, then I would go with size!). Cross hilts are awsome too, unless your a late period Scot then use all the baskets you want LOL

Animal,
I have seen your kit and your shield matches what would have been used quite well. I am a big fan of your work with "New Dogs" setting them up with good looking kits to start off with is THE way to go!

Dante,
You have a very well done and beautiful SCA Kit. I for one would just like to see more of it when you fight!
Cheers,
Leo

PS sorry for the double post earlier.

[James B.]

I know this is SCA fighting but if you are going to make an attempt at period armour, I say go for broke and lose the gi-nor-mo shield for one that is a bit smaller and learn how to use it corectly.

By correctly do you mean on horse back with a lance? Also they had even larger shields for foot guys attacking a castle of bowmen if you check out the art of the time.

Skill, not size, wins the day (unless you are in the biggest shield tourny, then I would go with size!).

Yes and no. SCA rules make the shield and sword combo the most effective even when it was not inthe case of 14th and 15th century plate armor.


Don't get me wrong I lover period armor but the normal SCA game rules are not realistic so tossing the word "correctly" around is absurd.

[Brother Logan]

So what you are saying James, is that because the rules dictate that I could hide behind a barn door, that I should? How does this help the apperance of the game. And yes they did have much larger shields for castle seige, but we are doing theamed grand tournys are we not. Wait let me guess you will say no to that as well. I know that you play LH and things are much more strict apperance wise there, but I don't want that, I just would like to see the giant shields go away so we can see the improving SCA kits underneath. Smaller shields are just as effective as the big ones if you take the time to learn how to use it. I also believe that the smaller shield and weapon combo makes SCA combat more exciting to view for the spectators.
Cheers,
Leo

PS if, in the future, you wish to make a point directed at me, please lose the "I think I know every thing attitude" I do my reasearch as well and do not apreaciate being spoken down to.
Thanks,
Leo

[Kevin]

If you look at The Battle of San Romano by Uccello, ca.1435-40, you'll note huge (by your standards above) oval shields. This is what I based my oval shield off of.

Of course, my armor strives to be late 15th century - no battle of the 30 for me.

James says the shield of the black prince was 24"x29". How tall was he? I don't know the answer to that, but I'm guessing that James's 24"x36" is similarly proportioned. My wooden heater is the same size, and I'm taller than he is. My "war heater" (seen in the background here) is substantially taller for obvious reasons.

[James B.]

What I am saying is that what you are calling correct is not, it’s your preference to the game. My preference would be make the normal rules the same as the "As Real Me Fought" rules so sword and shield no longer rule the game.


As to the “talking downâ€Â

[Broadway]

Well, my persona wouldn't have likely ever touched a heater. So I figure if I'm using the wrong shield anyway (probably shouldn't be using a shield at all, probably a greatsword), I'm gonna use the shield my knight told me to get, and is currently teaching me how to use.

I'll use the big shield until he says I'm ready for a small one... and yes, if he tells me to jump off a cliff I'll say "which one?"

[Winterfell]

Well unfortunately what you are asking, Leo, is a trap question.
First you are supposing only a late 14th and 15th century mentality to a group that spans a thousand years or so. Second you are ignoring the armour rules currently used in the SCA which, given how we are supposed to react to blows landed on us, is just above wearing no armour at all.

Now if your whim became law, let's say at Pennsic this year. There would be a hold called every 30 seconds to bring out the dead, because all of the combatants would be exposed. Not to mention that the commanders looking to find another advantage in battle would rely heavily on spears and poleaxes and combat archery.
Part of the reality of the grand battles in the SCA involve the massive shield presses, which lend a certain amount of fun, and shields were used in grand melees during the 12th and 13th centuries.

This is why the Battle of the Thirty, which is time and armour specific, does not have shields, while the bridge battle at Pennsic, which is neither time nor armour specific, has them in abundance.

It isn't the rules regarding shields that tend to make them bigger or more prevelant, it is the armour rule set that the SCA uses that makes a large shield favorable.

Or in a nut shell. Tough Nuggies.