Egfroth- Anglo Saxon Hosen

Wil · Post by **Wil** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:29 am

Found this the other day on the British Library website and thought you may find it interesting.

~Wil

Buran · Post by **Buran** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:48 am

I've seen this before. Some old costume books use this to suppose that Saxons had high leather boots.
We can only say that the jury is still out. If those are hosen or socks, there doesn't seem to be anything holding them up.

ishrajl · Post by **ishrajl** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:51 pm

That's what my hose look like when untied and rolled down, female look like that all the time folded down over the garter...

just my 2c

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:13 pm

Yes, you also see these in 15th century pictures - again, hose rolled down below the knee.

Thanks for this, Wil. It seems to support the idea of hose, if nothing else. Still doesn't give us a proper peek up under the skirt. So far only the Goliath has managed to do that.

Oh, well - I'll keep on looking.

Wil · Post by **Wil** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:52 pm

That's how I interpreted this image as well, hose rolled down to the knee.

~Wil

Rizzo · Post by **Rizzo** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 7:40 am

What is the motif of the picture? Is the artist trying to impose something on us? Lets pretend that it is some soon to be maryred saint that is flogged by a couple of smiling heathens...

Halvgrimr · Post by **Halvgrimr** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:50 am

I dont quite buy the rolled down hose thing anymore

I tried it at TFBO and ended up with hose around my ankles:)

This was even with the hose fitting REALLY tight around my calves.

I have seen later period folks use garters to prevent this but have never seen anything in VA/post VA artwork to suggest them during this period.

Or am I the only one who has experienced this?

Halv

Cunian · Post by **Cunian** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:58 am

It looks like that diagonal isn't accidental, but that they are held up by something in the front - maybe a very long tie that isn't shown? Or a pin to under - hosen?

ishrajl · Post by **ishrajl** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:56 pm

Halvgrim wrote:I dont quite buy the rolled down hose thing anymore

I tried it at TFBO and ended up with hose around my ankles:)

This was even with the hose fitting REALLY tight around my calves.

I have seen later period folks use garters to prevent this but have never seen anything in VA/post VA artwork to suggest them during this period.

Any artwork where they are there? Just had a quick look at some manuscripts and can't find any...

<a href="http://www.knighthospitaller.com/resources/Manuscripts/Chroniques%20de%20France%20ou%20de%20St.%20Denis-%20late%2014th%20C/Arrest%20of%20the%20Templars.jpg">St Dennis 1, no garters</a>

<a href="http://www.knighthospitaller.com/resources/Manuscripts/Chroniques%20de%20France%20ou%20de%20St.%20Denis-%20late%2014th%20C/Violence%20against%20French%20nobility.jpg">St Dennis 2, no garters</a>

<a href="http://www.knighthospitaller.com/resources/Manuscripts/other/21757_2.jpg">Long braies no garters Les Anciennes Hystoires Rommaines late 14th</a>

<a href="http://www.knighthospitaller.com/resources/Manuscripts/Histoire%20du%20Roy%20d%27Angleterre%20Richard%20II%20France,%201401-1405/Histoire%20du%20Roy%20d%27Angleterre%20Richard%20II%20France,%201401-14059.jpg">More no garters Histoire du Roy d'Angleterre Richard II France, 1401-1405</a>

Looking for more....

(Edited to add: <a href="http://www.knighthospitaller.com/resources/Manuscripts/Holkham%20bible/27023_2.jpg">Funky hose</a>)

ishrajl · Post by **ishrajl** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:32 pm

In my search for garters I keep coming across weird and wonderful pictures. The casual conversations that are going on in these pictures are amazing:

<a href="http://www.knighthospitaller.com/resources/Manuscripts/Chirurgia%201300%20-%201310%20%20%20Medical%20Scenes/12635_2.jpg">So doc, my intestines are falling out, have you got a bandaid?</a>

From <a href="http://www.knighthospitaller.com/resources/Manuscripts/Chirurgia%201300%20-%201310%20%20%20Medical%20Scenes/index.htm"> Chirurgia 1300 - 1310 Medical Scenes</a> Check out the brain surgury one.

Wil · Post by **Wil** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:23 am

I've rolled my hose to the knee a few times before and had no problems. For a garter, I just improvised the cord which I would have used to tie my hose to my braies; it's not being used anyway.

~Wil

Wolf · Post by **Wolf** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 6:11 am

maybe there pointed to the skin! ooo kewl blood hehe jk

Caithlinn · Post by **Caithlinn** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 7:06 am

Hi,

Generally, I would say that you won't find many garters in artwork. Unless they were very special (i.e. embroidered, with jewels etc) artists probably wouldn't have specifically drawn them. There are a few, however, have a look here: http://www.bl.uk/collections/treasures/ ... adband.htm (or change settings if on dial-up/narrow band) turn to page 8 top right corner, view with magnifying glass. Garter on right leg.

Or here: http://special.lib.gla.ac.uk/manuscript ... DID=32790# it's hard to see on the online picture, but it comes with the following description:

On 3, 1 recto [fol. 15r], within a richly floreated border, is a picture, 6 x 6Ã‚Â¼, of Edward III. doing homage to Philip for Guyenne. The French king is seated on a throne with his feet on a cushion footstool, and is dressed in a blue fleur-de-lisÃƒÂ© doublet over a red high-collared tunic, claret-coloured hose with a golden garter on his left leg. King Edward, in a reddish, gold-embroidered doublet over a dark blue tunic, and hose with a golden garter on his left leg, kneels on a red cushion on his right knee, his hat (Louis XI. style) with encircling crown on the ground. Men-at-arms (in silver) fill the background. An official in blue tunic, yellow hose and black brimless hat introduces Edward, who is followed by a numerous retinue. The act takes place in a silver-roofed, blue-ceilinged, grey-walled pavilion with monkish figures (?of Isaiah and Ezekiel) in long conical caps on pilasters on each side of the doorway, holding scrolls inscribed respectively: Yzais quia ueniet (?) Hesequiel uero uenit (?). What appears to be a monogram (AL) is written on the wall. The arms in the lower margin are defaced. Green birds like those on 2, 1. occur in the margin. 3.

The image is also in the book "The glory of the page" (London, 1987)

An example in the MOL Textiles and Clothing book with dags seems to have been specially woven to be a garter and is referenced in literature as well. All those sources, however, place garters far beyond the timeline Halvgrim is talking about. I guess rolled down hose without visible means of support has probably just a piece of string acting as a garter and the coth is rolled on top of it, so it's never visible. In some instances the tie (point) of single leg hose which fastens it to the braies could actually be used for that purpose, too, so no need to aquire a piece of string in the first place...

I know there are more, but I don't have the time to look right now, will do when I get to it, though.

Hope this helps,

Caithlinn

Caithlinn · Post by **Caithlinn** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 4:36 am

I have seen later period folks use garters to prevent this but have never seen anything in VA/post VA artwork to suggest them during this period.

Halv

Hi Halv,

Look what I found:

http://www.rete-amicorum.de/bildergaler ... _herr.html

The guy on the right is from a picture of the throne of Charles the Bold, 9th century... looks like garters to me....

Cheers,

Caithlinn

Flosi · Post by **Flosi** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 4:54 am

In regards to garters, try wearing hose along with leg bindings. Totally provenanced for the period and the top of them does function like the garter when you roll the hose down, providing you take the leg bindings high enough up the leg, of course.

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:46 am

Yep, garters. I have no problem with garters in 9th century Francia. They are shown in quite a few sources, including the Golden Psalter of St Gallen and an equestrian statuette of Charlemagne. Not so much in 11th century England, which was what I was particularly interested in.

Also this guy (and another in the same original source) are wearing some kind of "bandage" footwear like is shown in Ancient Roman representations (it probably has a name) , and the Royal guards are wearing musculata breastplates - in 9th century Francia! Doesn't fill you with confidence, unfortunately.

And before anybody jumps in to say Charles the Bold was 15th century Burgundy, not 9th century Francia, that should be Charles the Bald. A Freudian slip, perhaps?:wink:

MJBlazek · Post by **MJBlazek** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:34 am

Ill probably get mocked for this.

But

It almost looks to me like it could be the bottom hem of some sort of short pants perhaps.

It probably ist. but thats sort of what it looks like to me.

Caithlinn · Post by **Caithlinn** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 12:23 pm

And before anybody jumps in to say Charles the Bold was 15th century Burgundy, not 9th century Francia, that should be Charles the Bald. A Freudian slip, perhaps?

Nope,

Non Native Speaker slip.... it shows occasionally..... right MichaelB?

Cheers,

Caithlinn

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 4:10 pm

I wouldn't worry about it - the entire population of the United States is in the same boat - English is not their native tongue . . .

(runs like hell

)

Saverio · Post by **Saverio** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:26 pm

Of course we don't speak English. I've heard many people say, "you're in America, speak American!"

MilleniumLancelot, I see what you're saying, but I think garters are more likely. Unless of course, wearing your underpants on the outside was the fashion

.

Saverio · Post by **Saverio** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:38 pm

Medieval boxer briefs?
[img]http://saverio.mediumaevum.com/underoverwear.jpg[/img]

Buran · Post by **Buran** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:39 pm

It looks like theyr'e trying to indicate dimples in the knees. From my POV, it looks like the legs from the knees up are bare.

Wolf · Post by **Wolf** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:36 pm

naa its the style. like the Ultimate Warrior. i bet if u look under the cloak he has them at the bicepts and stuff to make his arms look huge too

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:46 am

Saverio wrote:MilleniumLancelot, I see what you're saying, but I think garters are more likely. Unless of course, wearing your underpants on the outside was the fashion .

Worked for Superman . . .

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 4:48 am

Will, I somehow got hold of the British Library file with the whole of the Hexateuch illustrations, and now I can't find the URL. Do you know where I can get hold of it?

Wil · Post by **Wil** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 2:18 pm

I don't, I'm sorry. It's been so long I cannot even remember how I found the image in the first place. I think I just typed 'Anglo Saxon' into the search box on their website and sifted through all the results, looking for useful images.

Best of luck,

~Wil

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Sun Mar 19, 2006 5:33 am

Thanks anyway. I'll see what I can find that way.

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 5:01 am

I've finally figured out how to work the search system
in the British Library's catalogues, and got hold of all these
great pictures.

I was particularly interested in the Cotton
collection, which has an amazing number of
pre-Conquest A/S manuscripts. For example, the
Tiberius Work Calendar -
http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/britishli ... .x=9&+.y=9
showing the different activities (ploughing, sowing,
reaping etc) appropriate to the different months.
There's also the Julius Work Calendar, and many, many
other documents in the Cotton collection (not to
mention the Harley MSS and heaven only knows what
else).

The way you go about it is to go to
http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/britishli ... earchinput
and key into the "shelfmark" box as much info as you
can about the catalogue number of the document (eg the
Tiberius Work Calendar is in Cotton Tiberius b).
Cotton's system was to catalogue his bookcases by the
names of the Roman Emperors whose busts sat on them -
so you have "Cotton Tiberius", "Cotton Julius",
Claudius, Cleopatra, Nero, Vespasian etc.

Unfortunately, the BL has only a selection of the
Cotton stuff up on the Net at the moment, not all of
it. Still, what there is, is very worth seeing.

For other MSS, do a search at
http://prodigi.bl.uk/illcat/searchMSNo.asp where they
have a very complete set of manuscripts available. The
Arundel manuscripts are pretty good. And don't forget
to click the link about half way down the page for
"Further Resources", which includes not only what they
have of the Cotton MSS,but also the Harley collection
(though unfortunately none of the pre-conquest stuff
is available).

Have fun with it!

BTW, the picture at the top of this thread shows the Hebrew overseers of the brickmakers being whipped by the Egyptians.

Isaac · Post by **Isaac** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:22 pm

I may have missed it, but what is the date on that (the original pictured) image?? I love the looks of hosen, but alas... I don't believe they are correct for my locale and period.

Isaac

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Fri May 19, 2006 1:44 am

Isaac, the picture of the overseers being whipped, with their hose falling down, is 11th century English.

BTW, the original of the Charles the Bald picture is below.

Buran and MJBlazek - to answer your questions, the guy's knees are blue in the original, so I think we can be pretty sure he's not barelegged above the knee.

Incidentally, this shows the danger we run when we use secondary sources - even black and white photographic reproductions of coloured originals. (On the other hand, maybe his knees were blue because it was a cold day?)