Dog Toy Mace, Are they Legal in An Tir?

Cormac Mor Mac Dhonuill · Mon Oct 24, 2005 6:31 pm

I was recently at Walmart and I found a really cool dog toy that could make a nice mace head. Once Tool Dipped of course.

I Am not currently fighting due to being in Hinton AB with no local SCA group. Since there are not any weekend practices that I know of in Borealis or Vinjar I can't just run this by a local Marshal as I can't make it to a fighter practice 3 hours away. It could be too hard but I would personally take a hit from it. It feels really nice and I know some guys would fight against this but does any one here know if something like this would be legal in An tir?

I'm hoping it will be legal as I have wanted to fight with a mace for a while and have yet to find a mace design I like till now.

Josh W · Post by **Josh W** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:06 pm

That's really cool. Now I wants one. I hope they stay legal...

Cormac Mor Mac Dhonuill · Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:53 pm

Not eaxacly sure it is legal, just hope it is so I can use it. It has give to the head but I'm thinking it is almost too hard. It has a nice bounce off a helm, and the force generated from it in a nice solid hit but not excessive. (Based on test strikes on myself through my armour) Like I said I would fight against it and I'm sure I know some that will. Just hope the marshals will pass such a head.

Bart · Post by **Bart** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 8:22 pm

When held sideways, can you force it more than 1/2" through a 1" - wide slot, such as the eyeslot on a helm?

Cormac Mor Mac Dhonuill · Mon Oct 24, 2005 8:33 pm

No it does not fit more than 1/2" through a legal bargrill or eyeslot. I'm just worried it does not have enough progressive give to it to be legal. Thought I may have seen one around like this one posted on here before. Legal or not it will be fun among friends in similar to SCA combat.

Ewan · Post by **Ewan** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:29 pm

I made one just like it and the local marshall bounced it since it didn't give 1/2" over the face of the mace. So check on your local interpretation of the mace.

My principality Marshall (Hi Hrogn!) Thought it was ok but according the letter of the rules it doesn't pass in Avacal.

Cormac Mor Mac Dhonuill · Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:36 am

THats exactly what I was worried about, I really didn't think it had enough give to pass by the letter of the rules in the ABC but thought that it may have a chance to be passed by a marshal. There is no SCA in Hinton, just myself as far as I know, and work does not allow for me to make any mid week practices to have it inspected by a marshal as Borealis and Vinjar are too far away to drive for an evening practice after work and be back at a reasonable hour. I'd like to get something going here but really don't have the time to make such a comitment, so I'm just going to keep updating my kit till I have what I want for someday I hope to live where I can play SCA again.

Asbjorn Johansen · Post by **Asbjorn Johansen** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:51 am

D. Mass Weapons (single-handed)
1. Hafts shall be of rattan of no less than 1-1/ 4 inches (31.75 mm) in diameter.
2. The haft may not be treated in any way that significantly reduces its
flexibility.
3. The head shall be firmly and securely attached to the haft. The head shall
allow at least a 1/ 2 inch (12.7 mm) of progressive give between the striking
surface and the weapon haft.

I can't speak for your local rules, but the half inch give is a Society level ruling and as such your local rules can only require more not less.

Where this becomse problematic is the amount of force you are allowed to use to achieve the required give can vary significantly from kingdom to kingdom. The mace may pass in one area and fail in others, even though quoted standard may be the same.

Ewan · Post by **Ewan** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:58 am

FWIW HE Sior Murchad said, "HE" hod no problem fighting me with one, but they don't pass as far as he was concerned.

Now Sir Gunther could get them to compress 1/2"........but he is a former national level shotputter. Does that count?

I believe HG Gaston built one and had little troble locally.....

Cormac Mor Mac Dhonuill · Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:24 am

Overall from what I'm hearing on here, it may or may not pass depending on the marshal. Overall I feel it will be a safe weapon as long as control is exercised in it's use. Personally I would be comfortable fighting with it and against it so I will complete it and throw it in my armour bag for the chance to use it when I can. Legal in an area or not if two fighters agree it is safe it for use between them can it atleast be used in a fighter practice setting.

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:13 am

Cormac Mor Mac Dhonuill wrote:THats exactly what I was worried about, I really didn't think it had enough give to pass by the letter of the rules in the ABC but thought that it may have a chance to be passed by a marshal.

I am sorry, but am I reading this right? Are you saying that you don't think that mace will pass inspection based on the rule book but you hope you can get a marshal (who may or may not be up on the current rules) to pass it anyway?

IF how I read it is correct, don't you think you are breaking the spirit of the rules? And since we play a game of honor you should be more worried about keeping the honor of the game intact than trying to rules lawyer a questionable weapon into play?

Robert of Canterbury · Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:40 am

As a good field test, get someone you know, (They don't have to be a fighter, just give them a one minute crash course on hip technique) to throw a few unimpeded blows into a shield you are holding.

Think whether you want to get hit that hard in the ribs, not the head, and then take it to an experienced marshal, and get him to fight you, with him using it...

Regards

Robert
(Who checked his own Dog chew mace in this fashion.. and doesn't use it)

Ewan · Post by **Ewan** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:58 am

InsaneIrish wrote:
Cormac Mor Mac Dhonuill wrote:THats exactly what I was worried about, I really didn't think it had enough give to pass by the letter of the rules in the ABC but thought that it may have a chance to be passed by a marshal.

I am sorry, but am I reading this right? Are you saying that you don't think that mace will pass inspection based on the rule book but you hope you can get a marshal (who may or may not be up on the current rules) to pass it anyway?

IF how I read it is correct, don't you think you are breaking the spirit of the rules? And since we play a game of honor you should be more worried about keeping the honor of the game intact than trying to rules lawyer a questionable weapon into play?

Irish,
In spirit I agree with you. The following is a good example of what can happen in the real world outside of the rule book.

My former knight made a falchion once, we calibrated it once and it never saw the light of day. It was legal though.
The weapon pictured is not legal but, totally safe. I've made a couple of other maces that were legal, but hit far harder than the weapon pictured. Why? The extra padding required add more mass ergo more felt impact.
Which is better?

Ldy Wu · Post by **Ldy Wu** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:02 am

I nearly had a heart attack when I saw this thread because I thought you were talking about the Kong dog toys. Those have been outlawed in Meridies and for good reason. But looking at what you have there (nice pics) I can't say where those would be legal and where they wouldn't.

Broadway · Post by **Broadway** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:00 am

Outlawed? I thought tons of folks used those. I was about to make one myself. Is this rule society wide, or is this just a Meridies thing?

What was the "and for good reason?"

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:23 am

Dante della Luna wrote:Outlawed? I thought tons of folks used those. I was about to make one myself. Is this rule society wide, or is this just a Meridies thing?

What was the "and for good reason?"

This is a very recent ruling in Meridies only. However I have heard that many Kong maces get bounced for insufficent padding from a number of different kingdoms.

Ewan:

I understand what you are getting at and yes that situation can happen, but I believe the amount of added padding to make that mace legal would not add that much weight. Deminish the look of the mace certainly but not add to much weight. And if it does then the maker needs to use different padding. Mandrake sells EVA foam that is super nice and wieghs next to nothing.

My whole point was that Cormac said that he knows the mace probably isn't legal but he was going to see and if he could get a marshal to pass it anyway. To me that sounded like he was going to try and surcomvent(sp?) rules by letting someone else make the mistake. That in my opinion is against the spirit of our game.

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:32 am

Could you use a larger chew toy/ thinner rattan, and wedge a bit of mouspad foam (neoprene) around the rattan. that might definately produce the give.

-+G

Saint-Sever · Post by **Saint-Sever** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:28 pm

For size and shape, that is about the only real-looking European mace I recall seeing made for SCA fighting.

I hope that it passes, or way is found to modify it for passage, without affecting size or shape.

M.

Ewan · Post by **Ewan** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:29 pm

Mine was held on by friction alone. (And I had already tool dipped the head and stained the shaft, before getting it inspected...too much work to fix.) The simplest solution is to remove a bunch of rattan behind the mace head, apple the thin layer of mouse pad (Basically putting the diameter of the stick BACK to what it was originally) and the apply the mace head.

What I find amusing is, if you look at that mace head, what do really think the chances are of actually stiking someone with the "ridge" section and NOT having it "glance"? What I mean here is: I don't think it would be very easy AT ALL to hit someone squarely with the area of the mace that won't compress.

Taking your thumb and pushing into an area of this weapon to check compression is just not indicative of what would happen on the field.

To pad the outside of that weapon would totally, be counterproductive. The reason you MAKE that weapon is cuz it LOOKS REAL as it is.

Hrogn · Post by **Hrogn** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:32 pm

Cormac Mor Mac Dhonuill wrote:Not eaxacly sure it is legal, just hope it is so I can use it. It has give to the head but I'm thinking it is almost too hard. It has a nice bounce off a helm, and the force generated from it in a nice solid hit but not excessive. (Based on test strikes on myself through my armour) Like I said I would fight against it and I'm sure I know some that will. Just hope the marshals will pass such a head.

Hey man. I am your Principality Earl Marshall. Are you coming to Coronet in November? It is in Borealis so probably isn't too far from you. If so, why don't you bring it and I will have a look at it. I would like to pass it because it looks cool and is the right shape. I will have to see if it compresses well on impact. If it does, you're probably good. If not, then it is too much like a real mace. Real maces were dangerous. Bring it out, we'll have a look at it. I will either pass it or give you suggestions to improve it so I might be able to pass it later.

Talk to you later,
Hrogn

Cormac Mor Mac Dhonuill · Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:27 pm

InsaneIrish
I am sorry, but am I reading this right? Are you saying that you don't think that mace will pass inspection based on the rule book but you hope you can get a marshal (who may or may not be up on the current rules) to pass it anyway?

IF how I read it is correct, don't you think you are breaking the spirit of the rules? And since we play a game of honor you should be more worried about keeping the honor of the game intact than trying to rules lawyer a questionable weapon into play?
_________________
Insane Irish
Those who beat their swords into plowshares, plow for those who didn't
A British WWII vet interviewed after the bombings in London:
"Stiff upper lip, lads. We've been bombed worse by better bastards than this."

I'm sorry if I wasn't too clear on this, My intent is not to bend the rules or get a marshal to pass an illegal weapon, but to see if it will pass. Personally I think it is borderline legal so I want to get it checked out as it is just a really cool mace. I know it is safe but just not sure how legal it is, and just from experience I know marshals can have different interpretations of the same rules. At the same time if it is bounced by one marshal that knows what they are doing I will not use it untill it is passable by all marshals I have inspect it.

I don't have a whole lot of experience fighting, but know my calibration and adjust according to the weapon style and individual weapon I am using such that blows I throw are adequate but not excessive. If it turns out to be legal great if not I will see what I can do to make it legal without pading the striking surfaces as that will defeat the point to me. The few maces I have tried were all much larger than this with padding, and I didn't feel they handled right, didn't look right and returned to thier owners without building one myself of the same design.

Hrogn, I'm not sure if I will make it to Coronet in November, depends on work and mundane life. I haven't been fighting for quite a while since moving to Avacal, and have sort of fallen out of the populace but would like to return when mundane life permits.

Hrogn · Post by **Hrogn** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:45 pm

Cormac Mor Mac Dhonuill wrote: I Am not currently fighting due to being in Hinton AB with no local SCA group. Since there are not any weekend practices that I know of in Borealis or Vinjar I can't just run this by a local Marshal as I can't make it to a fighter practice 3 hours away.

I should have mentioned that if you want there to be a practice in Borealis on the weekends, I can probably hook you up. There are a few guys there looking for one and if they had another guy, it would probably happen. But no big deal either way. But you should know that if you decide to be more active, there probably could be a Borealis weekend practice available.

Blackoak · Post by **Blackoak** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 6:32 pm

A friend of mine made one exactly like this. The problem is that the ridges of it do not compress at all. If you struck someone a solid blow with the ridge it could bust them up pretty good. It does look cool by the way.

Uric

Who by the way would rather get hit by that mace than a neoprene axe head. :shock:

Cormac Mor Mac Dhonuill · Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:08 pm

Hrogn
Archive Member

Joined: 26 Sep 2003
Posts: 266
Location: Principality of Avacal, Antir
Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:45 pm Post subject: Re: Dog Toy Mace, Are they Legal in An Tir?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cormac Mor Mac Dhonuill wrote:
I Am not currently fighting due to being in Hinton AB with no local SCA group. Since there are not any weekend practices that I know of in Borealis or Vinjar I can't just run this by a local Marshal as I can't make it to a fighter practice 3 hours away.

I should have mentioned that if you want there to be a practice in Borealis on the weekends, I can probably hook you up. There are a few guys there looking for one and if they had another guy, it would probably happen. But no big deal either way. But you should know that if you decide to be more active, there probably could be a Borealis weekend practice available.

Hrogn I will be putting a rush on getting my new kit together if weekend practices in Borealis are possible. I probably will not have what I want completed till sometime after Christmas. I will not be able to make practices every week weather permitiing every other weekend should be possible. I really would like to be more active like I was back East but isolation ( well 3hrs) from any group makes it hard to get to as many practices as I would like.

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:20 pm

Those have been outlawed in Meridies and for good reason.

And what is that reason?

This is all we heard:

Now, this goes into effect immediately! KongÃ‚Â® brand dog chew toys are expressly forbidden for use in the construction of mace
heads in the Kingdom of Meridies. IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve been meaning to get that out since Border Raids but IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m slack. I saw THL Ulrich von
BrandenburgÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s head split open like an overripe cantaloupe from one of those things. Ghastly. You know, nothing smells worse
than a dead monkey in the cantaloupe bin at the Super Wal-Mart.

Now, the Kong company makes a variety of products with a variety of durometer rating rubbers, from the beehives:
<img src="http://www.petsmart.com/media/ps/images/products/detail/standard/June05/50525_47fc5.jpg">

the red ones are softer than the black ones
to the stuff-a-ball:

<img src="http://www.knsediciones.com/Stuffaball2.gif">

to the goodie ball extremes:
<img src="http://www.strictlypetsupplies.com/product_images/dog/toys/kong/goodie_ball_xtreme_black.jpg">

To the buiscuit balls:

<img src="http://www.3cdog.com/images/Kong-Biscuit-Ball.jpg">

Now which of these was the culprit? what size? was it altered? Why were ALL of these products banned over ONE of them?

-+G

Tarquinius · Post by **Tarquinius** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:28 pm

hey,
i had a buddy make a mace from that exact dog toy.hit like a ton o' bricks. unfortunantly they bounced it because that particular dog toy doesn't have the 1" of give.
but if there was a way to work some foam into the equation then it probly would work.

Tarquin

Sixtus_Goetz · Post by **Sixtus_Goetz** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 6:18 pm

Tarquinius wrote:hey,
i had a buddy make a mace from that exact dog toy.hit like a ton o' bricks. unfortunantly they bounced it because that particular dog toy doesn't have the 1" of give.
but if there was a way to work some foam into the equation then it probly would work.

Tarquin

1" give? is that an An Tir rule? SCA minimums only requres 1/2" on mass weapons.

Odo · Post by **Odo** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 6:40 pm

Hrogn wrote:Hey man. I am your Principality Earl Marshall. Are you coming to Coronet in November? It is in Borealis so probably isn't too far from you. If so, why don't you bring it and I will have a look at it. I would like to pass it because it looks cool and is the right shape. I will have to see if it compresses well on impact. If it does, you're probably good. If not, then it is too much like a real mace. Real maces were dangerous. Bring it out, we'll have a look at it. I will either pass it or give you suggestions to improve it so I might be able to pass it later.

Talk to you later,
Hrogn

Curiosity has taken hold and I have a few questions for you. How much give does a piece of rattan have? How much give is required for a rubber mace head? Does it make sense that rattan is okay without give and rubber is not okay? What is the difference (it's not like rattan and rebar)?

Ewan · Post by **Ewan** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:17 pm

In my opinion Odo, there shouldn't be a difference. At least not with this mace head. It is really quite light not adding much to the tip of the hadt. But, the RULES say you must have 1/2" of give.

And rules iz rules.

Robert P. Norwalt · Post by **Robert P. Norwalt** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:54 pm

I've got one of the Kong maces, but I felt to not cause undo pain to my brothers, and in the long run,....myself,...I padded the thing appropriately, and so far have had not hurt anyone. With the right amount of give, and not baseball batting anyone's arms, kidney's, ribs, or nuts, it should be legal?

:?:

Cormac Mor Mac Dhonuill · Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:15 am

Well I planed down the rattan slightly and it seems to have made a noticable difference in the give of the mace head. Think it should have the required 1/2 " now.

As to not baseball batting anyone, well that isn't safe with any weapon. If I get to use this mace I will be careful not to generate excessive force. I fight predominantly Greatsword and polearm so I'm careful about the amount of force I generate with any weapon so as not to throw excessive blows.

The main reason for wanting a mace is for something to use with a shield. Though sword and shield is bread an butter to alot of fighters, that is exactly why I perfer other forms. Variety and the thought of something different on the field is more to my fancy than trying to be exactly like everyone else. Thats just the way I am.

Robert P. Norwalt · Post by **Robert P. Norwalt** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:24 am

I get cha. My first 10 years in, I almost exclusively fought mace, dagger, axe, and Katana, just to be,....fluid. Not picking something that would tend to more wins. Something I'd have to work harder at to win. I wasn't dogging ya, just saying about the mace padding thing.

Strongbow · Post by **Strongbow** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:50 am

Ewan wrote:I made one just like it and the local marshall bounced it since it didn't give 1/2" over the face of the mace. So check on your local interpretation of the mace.

My principality Marshall (Hi Hrogn!) Thought it was ok but according the letter of the rules it doesn't pass in Avacal.

I don't get it. How is using that mace any worse than an rattan baton? Why do mace's have to have 1/2" give and sowrds don't? I can;t imagine it adds so much weight as to be a concern.

Ewan · Post by **Ewan** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 1:33 am

Strongbow wrote:
Ewan wrote:I made one just like it and the local marshall bounced it since it didn't give 1/2" over the face of the mace. So check on your local interpretation of the mace.

My principality Marshall (Hi Hrogn!) Thought it was ok but according the letter of the rules it doesn't pass in Avacal.

I don't get it. How is using that mace any worse than an rattan baton? Why do mace's have to have 1/2" give and sowrds don't? I can;t imagine it adds so much weight as to be a concern.

Here is Asborn's quote from the Society

Asbjorn
D. Mass Weapons (single-handed)
1. Hafts shall be of rattan of no less than 1-1/ 4 inches (31.75 mm) in diameter.
2. The haft may not be treated in any way that significantly reduces its
flexibility.
3. The head shall be firmly and securely attached to the haft. The head shall
allow at least a 1/ 2 inch (12.7 mm) of progressive give between the striking
surface and the weapon haft.

cuz its da rulz

Not because it makes sense.

Robert P. Norwalt · Post by **Robert P. Norwalt** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 9:19 am

[quote="Strongbow"]
I don't get it. How is using that mace any worse than an rattan baton? Why do mace's have to have 1/2" give and swords don't? I can't imagine it adds so much weight as to be a concern.[/quote]

I think, like everything else in this particular game, it depends on what it's made of, who's swinging it, and how? Inertia by friend. From my experience with lot's of mass weapon fighting, shots to the helm, plate or lamellae front body, tend to get blown off more often then shoulder, triceps/biceps, forearm, kidneys, butt, or hip. Swords make more noise, and are more, "familiar" to the receiver. When they're legal clackers help in that department. Only times I've ever gotten complaint's or concerns was when the "progressive give" was loosing it's progress.