My Byzantine pauldron and armoured sleeve

[Egfroth]

Thouight I'd share this with you. It's based on a couple of 11th century Byzantine ikons. I've spent quite a long time trying to reconstruct the lamellar style shown on the ikons, and have finally got it to work properly - well, at least for one sleeve. The other one follows as soon as I finish it.

[Wil]

Egfroth, you are a class act, your Byzantine kit is awesome. Both sources you've posted have a matching skirt, are you going to take a stab at that as well? Seems it would be uncomfortable.

~Wil

[Egfroth]

I plan to do it eventually. Half the fun of doing this is finding out how it works once it's made. I have some ideas about how I'll carry it out, but I haven't yet finalised what I'll do.

If it works properly, it'll be some indication that I may have got the reconstruction right.

[Robert of Canterbury]

Woof!

Egforoth, your canonisation must just be around the corner...


Can you also post those here?

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=43984

Cheers

Robt.

[Trevor]

Nice! Best interpretation I've seen of Byzantine stuff. I'll have to pass the word to my Byzantine friends.

[Russ Mitchell]

Nicely done. How have you found the vertical lacing? I've seen that here and there, but there's no hard evidence for my guys in your north how it would have been run, since it's depicted so rarely...

[Alcyoneus]

If it works properly, it'll be some indication that I may have got the reconstruction right.

I think it will.

Are you going to go with the St George shoulder/torso protection as well? That would look so neat, and I think it would be even more protective and functional.

[Gerhard von Liebau]

Looks excellent, sir!

Can't wait to see the other side done! The skirt will also be very interesting to see done. Please, rush it for our sake!

-Gregory-

[Jason Grimes]

That is great!! I noticed that the skirt is made in the same way, are you going to make the skirt as well? Awesome job!!

[Egfroth]

If it works properly, it'll be some indication that I may have got the reconstruction right.

I think it will.

Are you going to go with the St George shoulder/torso protection as well? That would look so neat, and I think it would be even more protective and functional.

My interpretation of this protection is that it's a mail coif, extended to cover the shoulders - just not on the head at the moment because it's the convention to show the Saint's head in full. I may eventually make the coif, and get rid of the padded aventail on my Byzantine "concentric" helmet, which I'm not terribly happy with. See attachment.

Russ, the lacing was the big problem. It took quite a while (years, actually) for me to finally come up with a solution that actually worked while looking like the originals.

Robert, I've posted a link to this thread from the other one. Or do you think I should put all the pics up on that one as well?

[T. Finkas]

Just outstanding, in every way! How do I join your Fan Club?

Cheers,
Tim

[Russ Mitchell]

Judging by the way it pulls on the leather/fabric backing, I'm assuming that it's a tension wrap? Maybe with a knot to keep it at the right distancing?

[D. Sebastian]

Great job!

How's the arm bend at the elbow?

[Egfroth]

Just outstanding, in every way! How do I join your Fan Club?

Cheers,
Tim

[Blush] I bet you say that to all the girls!

Russ - yes, it's fairly tightly laced. I'm thinking of increasing the weight of the leather, as it deforms a little too much, and also doesn't really follow the shape of the arm properly as it goes round. Heavier leather would be more suitable.

How's the arm bend at the elbow?

Not too bad. It's not terribly obvious on the reconstruction , but you can see on the ikons that the sleeve is cut away at the inside of the elbow to allow free movement while giving protection to the elbow tip itself. I've got the shape almost right - just needs a bit of tweaking.

The other thing is the fixing of the pauldron. It's laced to the shoulder of the klivanion through a hole at top-dead-centre, plus held to the sleeve by a lace running up through a hole in one of the plates, through a bracket at the back of the pauldron, and back down through a hole in the adjoining plate. This makes it follow the arm beautifully, without flapping in the breeze every time I move. I've no idea if this is the way it was done, but it's certainly the way I'm going to be doing it from now on!

[Edwin]

I am hoping to get back to my new klibanion in a few weeks. Was planning to make an attempt at the sleeves based almost entirely on the pictures of icons Egfroth has on his website. Kudos to Egfroth, I hope mine turn out half as good.

Question for you Egfroth, only about the Klibanion. What weight of leather did you use for the Klibanion? I used duck-cloth in my current klibanion, and am not happy with it. It seems to flimsy, and wondered if you thought the leather you used seemed adequate.

[Egfroth]

I don't know what duck cloth is, and over here we measure leather not by weight but by thickness. I used leather about 1/16" thick for the klivanion itself, and also for the sleeves. The torso stuff is fine (you don't want to make it too thick or you add lots more unnecessary weight to the corselet), but I think I'd go heavier - maybe as much as 1/8" - for the sleeves.

I'll be posting the sleeve patterns in the next week or two if you're interested - or if you try another technique, I'd love to see photos.

[D. Sebastian]

Duck-cloth is light weight cotton canvas.


Edwin,
What were you doing with the duck?
Ptruges?

[Egfroth]

Edwin,
What were you doing with the duck?
Ptruges?

Um . . . are you really sure you WANT to know what he was doing with the duck?

[D. Sebastian]

What happens after work is no bodies business but mine and the duck's.

[Alcyoneus]

You quack me up.

[Edwin]

Nobody but my wife knows what happened to the duck, and neither of us is talking.

I used duck cloth for the torso bands. I've got some oil-tanned leather I was going to use. It's a little more than than 1/16" I think. It is a matter of compromise. The duck cloth is too flimsy, which means it wears into a non-useable state too quickly. Thick leather... well my first lamellar was 12oz wax hardened leather, and that was too heavy, and too bulky. Banded lamellar is flexible and easy to wear, making it too thick defeats the purpose IMO.

It's still going to be another month or two before I can get back to armoring. I need to set up an out-door shop area in my new backyard, and for that I need several weekends to finish unpacking.

[D. Sebastian]

My Varangian bra is made from belt leather.
I like the stability.

[Edwin]

What's your interpretation of what the Varagrian bra was? I have thought that perhaps it has simply what they used to buckle the klibanion on. I have never seen any pictures or icons that show how the armor was fastened, and thought perhaps those strips of leather had buckles on the back or side, and the klibanion were split at the sides (like a poncho) with no fasterers of their own.

I am going to be experimenting some with fastenings. I want to try making the klibanion as one piece, sort of like a pull-over vest. If that doesn't work out well, I was going to try having no fastenings, and use the Varangian bra or a tied sash to see if that worked.

[D. Sebastian]

I have never seen any pictures or icons that show how the armor was fastened

Nor have I.

It could hold the corset together, it could be battlefield recognition, it could be styleistic...

Mine is woven into the kilbanion and acts as an elaborate shoulder support. The whole thing closes on the shield side.
details: http://www.mattyds.com/armour1.php

[Egfroth]

The "bra" still a mystery, but it should be noted that it is almost identical to a harness shown being worn by Sassanian kings in Persian representations fro about the 6th century onward. Whether it was a functional piece or just a stylistic convention, I don't know. However, it seems most prevalant in representations which have had doubts cast on their accurate rendition for other reasons.

My own klivanion is done up at the back with 4 straps and buckles. Without the sleeves, I can reach around and do it up by myself. I think adding the sleeves might make it too difficult. However, I'm goingto see if the sleeves can be tied on after the torso is donned. If not, I really don't care. Anybody who could afford this kind of armour would also be able to afford servants to help him armour up.

Edwin, I agree with you about leather weight. I'm happy with the thickness of the torso bands. It's only the sleeves I think might need thicker leather.

[D. Sebastian]

Eg, where is your chest sash?

[Egfroth]

Jeez - gimme a break. Haven't even finished the second sleeve and now he wants a chest sash. There's no pleasing some people . . .

[Egfroth]

Thought you'd like to see the patterns I used for my "banded" lamellar klivanion, and for the lamellar sleeve.

The lacing design for the klivanion was developed by my friend (Dr) Tim Dawson, and he has given me permission to put it up on the Net.

The pattern for the sleeve is mine, and I have to say Tim was a bit dismissive - he reckoned the first time it went up against a sharp sword the laces would get cut and that would be the end of it. I think I could probably work up a means that would keep it from falling to bits for at least the duration of a battle (eg knot every lace behind the hole it goes through - that kind of thing), but at the moment I have Other Things To Do (getting my kit ready to be the leader of the Englisc left wing at Hastings 2006).

The diagrams are both done by me. Hope you like them.

Updated February 2014 - the lacing diagram above for the sleeve puts the sleeve at risk of falling apart when a lace was cut through - I've amended the diagram in my post of 6 Jan 2007 on page 2 of this thread)

[Halvgrimr]

Your years ahead of me in the area of research but it seems to me like several well placed blow across those long 'stitches' might render the armour 'less than functional'.

Am I the only one to think so?

[Egfroth]

Indeed, and that was Tim Dawson's point.

However, I think the diagram is a bit misleading. Have a look at the sleeve actually on the arm - a well-placed blow might cut one lace - even a really solid one would be hard pressed to cut as many as two.

I can't see that it could get more than that, and that might leave the sleeve with enough integrity to survive, particularly if you've tied knots behind each hole to keep the lace from slipping all the way through if it gets cut.

The only real way to find out would be to test it to destruction, and I'm not currently prepared to do that. Maybe when I have more free time to repair it after it's destroyed . . .

(Updated February 2014 to add some more pics of the body armour construction - yes I know this thread is supposed to be about the sleeve and pauldron, but it seems to have turned into a discussion of the chest armour as well, so what the hey.

You can see the plates rivetted to the lowest row of leather (it's that curved shape because the klivanion curves down in the front to protect your gut). Unfortunately, for some reason this pic doesn't show on the thread as a picture - you have to click the link to download it.

The rear (secondary) lacing partly complete so you can see what it looks like (this stops the klivanion's rows opening up like a venetian blind with great gaps for people to stab you through).

And the way it does up. I used three straps and buckles at the back (if I did it knowing what I know now, I'd have put in a bit of overlap so there'd be no possibility of a gap at the back) - I know many people do theirs up at the side but I find I have no trouble getting it on and off by myself like this - and anyhow, if you had one of these you'd probably be well enough off to have servant to do it up for you.)

[Orazio]

Crud...you guys are making me think about switching from 14th century to Byzantine...stop posting cool Byz armor, I can't afford it!!!

[D. Sebastian]

I can't find the reference, but I recall mention that Byzantine lamellar may also be connected with wire as well as cord.

When I saw Egfroths kit and the art that inspired it, it reinforced for me the possibility / plausability of wire connecting the lamellae.

[Egfroth]

I can't find the reference, but I recall mention that Byzantine lamellar may also be connected with wire as well as cord.

When I saw Egfroths kit and the art that inspired it, it reinforced for me the possibility / plausability of wire connecting the lamellae.

Yes, that would make everything so much easier, wouldn't it? If you can lay your hands on genuine evidence of such, I'd be very grateful.

Orazio, you don't have to leave the 14th century to do Byzantine - the C14 Byzantine stuff is awesome! See below for an example of armour. And look at the court clothing!!!!

[Alcyoneus]

I've seen some Scythian scale (fingernail sized) that was wired to leather, I believe. It is in the right neighborhood, if a bit early.

[Egfroth]

Yeah, but just nothing from my own period and region of interest. (sigh).