Star Scale experements

Malek · Post by **Malek** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 2:46 am

This is mainly to keep that Mongol armour thread from getting too sidetracked.

I posted some new close-up pix of one of the star-scale shoulder guards I made about a year ago. The scales are pop-riveted to 12oz leather and edged with 3-4oz leather and stitched in place with waxed twine.

Check them out

Here is where I address some questions about the stuff that has come up:

Flexibility: There is some flex to the inside vertically and horozontally. More horozontal flex than vertical. - I am not sure if I am terming it correctly. I am referring horozontal flex to mean that it "folds" along a horozontal plane as the armour is worn. Similar for the vertical. The stuff bends inward well, but not outward. Inward meaning the center moves in as the edges move out.

What this also means is that when I am designing the chest/back plates for cuirass, more than likely the front and back panels will need to be flat.

Horozontal flex - that is a ball if butted maille that weighs about 2lbs.
Vertical flex
Outward flex - there is almost none.
That anvil is a 15lb Central Forge that is sitting on the back of the piece.

Shock hardening: Most of my combat is with padded LARP weapons. I have had it whacked a few times with a Kendo shinai. It distributed the impact well and there was little sting.
The inward flex does have a limit, but I think over a chest/back plate it would be more for movement flexibility than anything else.

Backing material: I used 12oz leather, mainly for our "armour point system" However if materials and time allow - I may make a chest piece with 4 layers of canvas as the backing to test overall flexibility.

Scale size: The scales I cut initially and had laser cut worked out to be about 2 1/2" wide by about 3" tall.

Cutting the scales: If you are doing it by hand - MAJOR PAIN IN THE ASS!
The main headache was getting that little valley between the ears and the main part of the scale body. My solution was to use the hand shears to cut down the edges of that little valley, then score the bottom line with the cutting wheel on my dremel, and then use pliers to break off that little piece.

The metal fab shop I used charged about $0.60 a scale to do my initial run of 250. obviously the more scales, the lower per-unit cost. Next time I plan to put an order in, I'll post here about it (possibly around springtime?)

Scales per square foot: The shoulder guards I made are 12"x14" - about as close as it gets. That patch used 46 scales. I think it could have been done w/ 42 (excluding that last upper row)

I think that will about cover it for the moment. I am sure other questions, etc. will follow.

-- Malek

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 12:57 am

Got one for you. Got a buddy with a baseball bat or axe? Can you tape/strap it up to other armor so you won't get hurt, but will still move? I'm very curious as to how well this 3d scale design resists deformation on impact, and on what happens to the impact energy.

(And yes, in fact, I do precisely this sort of thing to my own armor. Just last week I did it with an axe on lamellar in order to test a theory about the latter. Now I have to get my twin to come down on his 450 so we can try it from "horseback.")

Nice work. I like the care you've taken thus far in your documentation.

Malek · Post by **Malek** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 12:47 am

I have not gotten brave enough to try it out with anything more dangerous than a Shinai. I was considering a local SCA practice once I got the whole cuirass done and check it with the local marshalls.

Considering that I may very well scrap the initial pieces, I just might give it a go with an axe or "scrap blade" and see what comes of it. I think I may even take one of them to a local archery range and see what happens then. I do have a camcorder so if things work out well, the results will get posted somehere . . .

Thanks for the comments on the documentation. All the postings I have seen so far on this type of armour have been people wanting to do it, and experementing with cardboard. If anyone else besides Lu-Shan and myself have actually made this stuff, I would love to hear about it and compare notes.

Thorbjorn · Post by **Thorbjorn** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 10:27 am

Depending on the gap between the scales (it looks about the size of a standard arrow point) the archery test might be...interesting.

I would think that the shape of the scales would almost force the arrow to go into the opening due to the shape of the pieces.

Eirikr the Eager · Post by **Eirikr the Eager** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 6:58 pm

Thorbjorn wrote:Depending on the gap between the scales (it looks about the size of a standard arrow point) the archery test might be...interesting.

I would think that the shape of the scales would almost force the arrow to go into the opening due to the shape of the pieces.

Yes and no. I made a small (approx 15*15 cm) section of mountain scales as I was very interested by Lu-Shan's idea. Arrows that hit tend to get "bound up" in the armour. They seem to jam in place, rather then punch through.

But! I wasn't using a bodkin-type arrow head.

The scales were a BIG pain in the arse to cut out by hand.

It does look very good though.

Lu-shan · Post by **Lu-shan** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:55 pm

Hi,

I know this thread is getting old, but I don't get online like I used to with the kids and all. I read the other thread about the inconsistencies between this design of armour and pretty much everything else. I also am bothered by the apparent wastage and expecially by the no surviving armours. I've been communicating with some amateur Chinese armour historians, and still beleive that it was a real armour (it is listed in written inventories from the Tang and Ming), and that it was metal. I have been corrected in the name - the name should be shanwenjia as it is listed in the historical records, not "shan wen kia" as Robinson listed it, and as I repeated it. the term jia was used for metal armours. Since Chinese armours of those eras did not use large plates, then it must have been small plates. I have one written example (modern, with no reference) that states the plates were shaped like the character "shan".

There is an updated (but still old) version of the essay here:
http://www.flatbow.com/shanwenkia/

It is a pretty shoddy example of scholarly research, but I hope to do a major update with more illustrations and better referencing, as I get rtranslations of historical and modern documents from China. I've got about 50-60 new statues and paintings to include that show much greater detail. Still no existing examples, though. Our limited testing indicated that the plates need to have a serious 3-D relief (as mentioned by Russ above) to allow for any flex, and indeed, the better statues and paitings show high relief.

I still have hopes of creating a suit, but it's obvious that I'm not going to carve the plates by hand!

Cheers,

Lu-shan / Dan

Eirikr the Eager · Post by **Eirikr the Eager** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:46 pm

Hi Lu-Shan,

Keep us informed of what you find!

critter · Post by **critter** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:47 pm

I still have a cad file if any body wants it...

Batujin · Post by **Batujin** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:03 am

Lu-shan wrote:Hi,
I know this thread is getting old, but I don't get online like I used to with the kids and all. I read the other thread about the inconsistencies between this design of armour and pretty much everything else. I also am bothered by the apparent wastage and expecially by the no surviving armours. I've been communicating with some amateur Chinese armour historians, and still beleive that it was a real armour (it is listed in written inventories from the Tang and Ming), and that it was metal. I have been corrected in the name - the name should be shanwenjia as it is listed in the historical records, not "shan wen kia" as Robinson listed it, and as I repeated it. the term jia was used for metal armours. Since Chinese armours of those eras did not use large plates, then it must have been small plates. I have one written example (modern, with no reference) that states the plates were shaped like the character "shan".

Put me among the interested for whatever you turn up. However, for the time being, I need to remain skeptical. There are a huge number of lamellar plates in existance from just about every dynasty that have either been found as part of a suit or individually..and yet none of these have been found.

My current working theory on this stuff is that it is brigantine. I'd be happy to discuss that theory at anytime.. it's at least a cool theory to talk about

I would also make a caution on the artwork used for documenting this stuff. Lots of it -looks- to be later period. (Though I could be wrong). Additionally, I would stay away from images of Kuo Tzu-i, as he was later turned into a God and is likely to be wearing an artists idea of armor that would fit a diety

Cet · Post by **Cet** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:56 pm

Critter,

Send me the CAD file.

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:01 pm

Run with it. I'm in Batujin's corner, but...

a. if it turns out to be historical, you're the golden child
b. if not, you've still got one of the best-considered fantasy armors ever created

Lu-shan · Post by **Lu-shan** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:17 pm

Batujin wrote: Put me among the interested for whatever you turn up. However, for the time being, I need to remain skeptical. There are a huge number of lamellar plates in existance from just about every dynasty that have either been found as part of a suit or individually..and yet none of these have been found.

My current working theory on this stuff is that it is brigantine. I'd be happy to discuss that theory at anytime.. it's at least a cool theory to talk about

I would also make a caution on the artwork used for documenting this stuff. Lots of it -looks- to be later period. (Though I could be wrong). Additionally, I would stay away from images of Kuo Tzu-i, as he was later turned into a God and is likely to be wearing an artists idea of armor that would fit a diety

I'm holding out for a better contemporary written description - such as "general so and so had in his inventory 3 suits of shanwenjia, each of plate size n x n, made of iron" wouldn't that be wonderful. It's all speculation if all we have are statues.

Cheers, Lu-shan / Dan

critter · Post by **critter** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:20 pm

e mail sent

Batujin · Post by **Batujin** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:14 pm

Lu-shan wrote: I'm holding out for a better contemporary written description - such as "general so and so had in his inventory 3 suits of shanwenjia, each of plate size n x n, made of iron" wouldn't that be wonderful. It's all speculation if all we have are statues.

Cheers, Lu-shan / Dan

I'll be the first to shout your praises if you find it

If I can offer any help, I would be happy to. I am just about to start a Yuan kit, so I've been digging into Chinese armor resources pretty heavy. If there is anything I can offer or do, please shoot me an email.

I think they key to this one is not going to be if they -did- make it, but rather if the -would- have made it. (Given the armoring techniques of the Tang)

DAVID01 · Post by **DAVID01** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 4:08 pm

[/quote]It's all speculation if all we have are statues.

Cheers, Lu-shan / Dan

What difference does this make? there are plenty of Archivers that are making/or wanting to make armour that is only found in an effigy or tapistry etc. Such as whale bone gauntlets.

Ld Thomas Willoughby · Fri Jan 13, 2006 4:30 pm

Dan, I've been playing around with some 22ga stainless using hand snips and my angle grinder with a cutting disk. I cut them to size that we used before and they stiffen up rather decently. I've been playing around with the wing areas, laying a differnt flute pattern down them and have gotten them to fit together a bit tighter. Still need to cut out a few more for testing.

ps.. I'd thinking of doing a Song or Tang armor as an alternative rig. Hope to have all the bells and whistles.