1330's cuisses & polyens

[Will Phillips]

Hey all,

I'm working on my first set of (SCA) armor, however, I want to have even my first set of gear look reasonably period - as much as I can given my time and financial constraints. My era, as it were, is Germany in the second quarter of the fourteenth century.

I'm currently working on my leg armor and have two questions.

1. I'm creating a pair of studded leather cuisses. My question is what do I use for the actual studs?

2. With my polyens, I know I'm not going with wings. However, I've heard talk of roundels being used and also have seen effigies and heard others talking about a curious German type of proto-wings that seem to look like a Spade (think card suit). Would wither one be suitable?

Thanks.

[Jost von Aichstadt]

2. With my polyens, I know I'm not going with wings. However, I've heard talk of roundels being used and also have seen effigies and heard others talking about a curious German type of proto-wings that seem to look like a Spade (think card suit). Would wither one be suitable?

I don't think I've seen the proto-wings - I invite you to look at the gothiceye effigies. What I see when I look at them is the following:
1) No wings. Note that this isn't dispositive: you can't always see the side, but when you can, the back edge is straight, not protruding back.
2) No roundels on the knees. The knees seem to be protected either by single cops or what looks like an early form of articulated (three-piece) knees. A distinctive feature seems to be a ridge running down the front of the knee. Incidentally, Windrose Armory sells a very nice version of this, along with (if you're of a mind), matching elbows and shoulders. They made mine, and the service was wonderful. I do of course see roundels at the shoulder, but that's different.
3) During the '30s, you usually don't see the cuisses - the cote is too long. The exceptions include Roger de Kerdeston, who has some kind of stripy-thing going on with his cuises (looking for all the world like the splints I started out with lo these many years ago), and Lord Stafford, who has studded cuisses. Cote hems seem to rise later (1360ish), and at that point, you do see lots of studded cuisses, and some which might be steel.

Thanks as always to the wonderful folks at gothiceye for making this resource available online.

[Cormack]

Tis true the germans were useing spades at this point, the illistration i've seen have a kinda fluted 'swirl' comming in from the base of the spade.

As for cuisse you could have the padding covering steel strips which rivet through leaving the top of the rivet showing.

[Will Phillips]

Thank you both for the replies.

3) During the '30s, you usually don't see the cuisses - the cote is too long. The exceptions include Roger de Kerdeston, who has some kind of stripy-thing going on with his cuises (looking for all the world like the splints I started out with lo these many years ago), and Lord Stafford, who has studded cuisses. Cote hems seem to rise later (1360ish), and at that point, you do see lots of studded cuisses, and some which might be steel.

So, technically, what do I make the studs out of? Really, really big rivets or what?

[RandallMoffett]

Sure big rivets would work. I really think that you maybe able to find some nice broad headed nails as well. As far as I know studded armour has metal plates or the like opposite it of the leather. It is possible that it was decoration but would seem out of sync with the progression of armour of the time, (COP's and splinted vambraces), if the studs were not rivet heads holding splints on. The fans on the couters and poleyns first appear around 1340 from what I have seen and read. I am not a specialist on german armour but the effigies I have seen tend to back this statement.
RPM

[Jost von Aichstadt]

Tis true the germans were useing spades at this point, the illistration i've seen have a kinda fluted 'swirl' comming in from the base of the spade.

Terrific - got a pointer to a source? I'd love to see this.

[Jost von Aichstadt]

The fans on the couters and poleyns first appear around 1340 from what I have seen and read. I am not a specialist on german armour but the effigies I have seen tend to back this statement.
RPM

Hi Randal - same question to you as to Cormack - I'd love to see a source on this. What effigies are you looking at?

[Konstantin the Red]

There's a consensus here that studded limb armor is like steel plate covered over with leather held with numerous rivets all over the surface. Splinted limb armor is believed to have the splints alternately on the outside and inside of the leather, with the rivets' heads showing on the inside splints.

For the armourer on a budget, consider the shortest size of roofing nails. These have broad heads and are available in galvanized and copper.

[Will Phillips]

So then what is the general concensus of 'stud and splint" armor ala Günther von Schwarzburg?

[RandallMoffett]

Sorry busy with my school work and have neglected the board.
Jost, I do not have the book with me currently but get ahold of a copy of C Blairs, european armour circa 1066 to 1700 and he gives a fairly large list of sources to go over in the biblio. Also read the early plate era chapter as well, very well done I thought. Also as far as the besagew round style fans there are tons on english effigies in the early 14th. Humphery de Bohun 1321, Oliver de Ingham 1344, William Fitzralph 1335. The spades are harder to find but Robert du Bois has small ones and Henry Grosmont, Duke of Lancaster 1347 has them on his effigy. If you would like more you'll have wait till my term ends and vacation starts. I'd be more than happy to look through the uni's library collection on effigies if I have some time.
Hugo, I do not see the point of studded armour as armour really. Perhaps as decoration, but the extra step between putting splints in and not and the added protection of the splints over not having them makes me figure that the studs represent rivet heads holding the splints. As this arraingment has never been found in an artifact (as far as I know) its all speculation, but there are pictoral and written accounts of splinted style armour making it a fairly firm foundation, I do not know of any examples of any studded armour unless those effigies really do not have splints under them. Thats my opinion and of course as an opinion its just that, but I'd say its at least a fairly stable one
RPM

[RandallMoffett]

Konstantine do they really have copper roofing nails? I wish I had seen those before. I bought a ton of truss heads, I like them but they still rust after years of service. Where do you get them? My lil brother is supposed to be starting on some splinted arms and those would be perfect.
Hugo, as far as construction inside seems more common for cuisses but apart from that it varies. Try doing a search I pulled up some interesting stuff here on the AA.
RPM

[NightDaemon]

I'm working on my first set of (SCA) armor, however, I want to have even my first set of gear look reasonably period - as much as I can given my time and financial constraints. My era, as it were, is Germany in the second quarter of the fourteenth century.
..snip..
Thanks.

I'd like to thank you, too. A first set of armour, and not only do you have a period (shockingly specific, too) but you want to stick at least reasonably to that. You, sir, are a rare breed. Have some chocolate.

[Kilkenny]

Thank you both for the replies.

3) During the '30s, you usually don't see the cuisses - the cote is too long. The exceptions include Roger de Kerdeston, who has some kind of stripy-thing going on with his cuises (looking for all the world like the splints I started out with lo these many years ago), and Lord Stafford, who has studded cuisses. Cote hems seem to rise later (1360ish), and at that point, you do see lots of studded cuisses, and some which might be steel.

So, technically, what do I make the studs out of? Really, really big rivets or what?

well, how big are you looking to make your studs ? I just made myself a set of splinted leather cuisses, using large dome top brass rivets to hold the splints. The dome heads on the outside of the leather look pretty nice, and fit the "stud" look reasonably well.

Gavin

[Konstantin the Red]

Randall, while I personally have never seen copper roofing nails, I've heard of them -- I think they are favored for use in rainy climates. I'd ask at any place that has regular galvanized ones if copper nails are available. Another likely venue would be construction-supply concerns.