Opinions on my armor

Hugo de Stonham · Post by **Hugo de Stonham** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 9:34 am

I'm not sure what period it is but I think its around 1320-1330 or something close.
What I have so far....

Maille shirt 3/4 sleves
leather vambraces
elbow polyeon
kettelhelmet
bishops mantel
arming cap

still in the makings.....
knee polyeon
gambeson

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/texasarti ... /my_photos

So what do I need to add, change or remove?

Grendal

Glen K · Post by **Glen K** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:36 am

So what do I need to add, change or remove?

For SCA use? For rebated steel reenactment? For living history? For Hyper-Authentic Kit?

Hugo de Stonham · Post by **Hugo de Stonham** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 11:17 am

I'm not exactly sure. I'll say for now Living history/rebate steel.

Jost von Aichstadt · Post by **Jost von Aichstadt** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:17 pm

grendal wrote:I'm not exactly sure. I'll say for now Living history/rebate steel.

What are your thoughts for legs and feet?

Hugo de Stonham · Post by **Hugo de Stonham** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:40 pm

For legs I have though of quilted leging followed with polyeon knee cops. I have given no though for the feet.

Grendal

Hugo de Stonham · Post by **Hugo de Stonham** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:30 pm

If I was to use it for SCA then what would I have to do inorder to pass inspection?

Grendal

Gwydion Caithnes · Post by **Gwydion Caithnes** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:52 pm

grendal wrote:If I was to use it for SCA then what would I have to do inorder to pass inspection?

Depends. Just to "walk around in," probably not much more.

But SCA combat is another story: You need to look at the rules for the kingdom in which you live, but minimally (and based solely on what I can see in the picture), you need a helm that covers your head and protects your face, and knee protection. Can't tell what you're wearing under the tabard, but if it's only the mail, then you need chest and kidney protection as well. Unless you're partial to bruises, then I also recommend cuisses.

Hugo de Stonham · Post by **Hugo de Stonham** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:32 pm

All I have on under the tabard is just maille...I've considerd using a coat of plates.

What are cuisses?

Grendal

Ebonbane · Post by **Ebonbane** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:56 pm

Cuisses are thigh protection, for your kit, probably hidden. You'll get wacked in the thighs and wrap-around shots in the SCA, so you'll want some kind of hard thigh defence.

Good luck and get pics when you get your kit together!!
Sean

Nick D · Post by **Nick D** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:01 pm

If you do end up with rebated steel my first suggestion would be an enclosing helm and better neck protection.

Mike F · Post by **Mike F** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:55 am

I think the SCA requirements and the rebated requirements have been mentioned. As far as just looking the part, you could pass for an archer up to about 1415 or so. Assuming you had a bow, anyway.

Pretty neat looking, though.

Hugo de Stonham · Post by **Hugo de Stonham** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:23 am

Thanks for all the input guys. I have finished my knee cops and will start on my closed helmet as soon as I can get some steel. Any Ideas for a good closed helmet?

Grendal

Mike F · Post by **Mike F** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 11:44 am

Bascinet with a hounskull or a more globose klappvisor. You're too early for a sallet, and a greathelm or sugarloaf would be seriously outdated by the time you're looking at.

Henry of Bexley · Post by **Henry of Bexley** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:07 pm

1320-1330? Great helms and sugarloafs would be acceptable at this point, for the early end I'd encourage them. Visored bascinets are still developing and relatively simple at this time. Now if you're thinking 1415, yeah, too late, but the only date I saw him throw out was the 1320-1330.

Just sayin'

Hugo de Stonham · Post by **Hugo de Stonham** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:34 am

I'm shooting for 1320-1330 or somewhere aroud that time. Anyone have a pic of a early visored bascinet?

Grendal

Gwydion Caithnes · Post by **Gwydion Caithnes** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:12 pm

I think this is the kind of thing being suggested...

[img]http://www.photodump.com/direct/GwydionCaithnes/bascinet.jpg[/img]

Strongbow · Post by **Strongbow** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:23 pm

Well, to be fair Gwydion, that hat is more 1370-1380.

Early visored bascinets would be side pivoted and relatively flat favced, or maybe somewhat globose in the lower face. Look at teh Flemish Alexander book for examples of 1340ish bascinets. You could also use a visored sugarloaf in that time frame (Luttrell Psalter of C.1345 shows one).

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:51 pm

How about we steer Grend towards getting his copy of TOMAR? If he's constructing his first SCA harness, he's going to need to know a good bit of the stuff in there.

Hugo de Stonham · Post by **Hugo de Stonham** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 12:00 am

I have borrowed TOMAR several times from the library. I would like to have my own copy but my buget is limited.

i think a visord sugarloaf will suit me best. What do ya'll think of Sinric's pattern? will It work?

Grendal

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 12:06 am

Grend, what works for SCA, head to not-quite-foot:

1) Fully enclosed helmet. That kettlehat of yours is okay for a safety lid for a n SCA marshal, who is a combat safety officer and not a combatant -- but since he's in fairly close to swinging sticks, a hardhat's a good idea. But for a fighter -- no. It has to be solid steel all the way around your skull and your face, at least 15 gauge mild, and likely heavier.

2) Hard gorget, either as part of a given harness type, or as a hidden extra. Guards your throat bones and your neckbones.

3) Optionally, spaudlers. A good first project in plate armouring: it teaches you at least two different kinds of articulation with rivets, dishing, cutting, edge finishing and filing, rivet peining, bouging and planishing -- all this in a project that's nice and manageable, being not too big. A sword & shield man usually doesn't much need these as the shield does a great deal to protect you, but in a twohanded weapon form like bastard sword or any polearm, spauds come in handy.

4) SCA kidney belt, mandatory. Might as well make it so its rigid parts go all the way around your belly parts. Kidney belts rise high in the back, as kidneys live pretty high up. The bare minimum is heavy leather with about half an inch of padding within, but most of these are of 1/8" plastic (HDPE), aluminum, or steel. I've seen a handsome-looking external kidney belt belted over a long gambeson, but body armor of this type is authentic only for D&D Dwarves. Seems the modern fashion for these is to conceal them within whatever your body armor is IF it needs the reinforcement. Plate breast and back covers this requirement. This feature shows up in harness of c. 1380 and later. Coat of Plates also covers this, and some brigandines.

5) Hard elbows, giving three-point coverage around the joint: from the bump on the outer elbow, around its point, to the corresponding bump on the inside of the joint. Vambraces and rerebraces below and above the elbow cop, to taste. If you do make complete arms with vambrace and rerebrace, you'll suspend them from about the points of the shoulders, one way or another; you can't strap them tight enough across the elbow to expect them to stay.

6) Mitten gauntlets, or half hourglasses teamed with a basket hilt on a sword. Very often, gaunts are bought. They take experience to make well, so that they will actually move with your hand. Half-hourglass gaunts are simpler to do, and make a good first gauntlet project. Period historical examples of gauntlets move with the hand with remarkable faithfulness, so impressive it's almost eerie.

7) Martial-arts cup, to protect your hope of future generations and all that goes with it. Martial arts models cover better and fit better too. Occasionally, lucky fighters have fished a cup out of their britches that has been (accidentally) cracked right across. You WILL wear your 'nad armor.

8) Leg-harness: cuisses, poleyns, perhaps lames above and below if it's that kind of design, demi-greave to finish, greaves optional. Either a hard leg all the way up and down, or a stiffly padded gamboised cuisse, a quilted cuisse such as you're thinking over. Whatever you choose should cover about two thirds of the circumference of each thigh, minimum, to deal with SCA leg-wrap shots. Start from the inseam of your jeans around to about the middle of the back of your leg. Metal legs are rather heavy, and should best be suspended not from a belt, but from a loadbearing, extra-long vestlike garment called an "arming pourpoint," though it isn't terribly heavily padded/quilted. This pourpoint is a good place to put kidney belt plates, in deep concealment. We've tried hanging leg armor from waist belts for many years, getting very ingenious with shaping the things, but it seems the arming pourpoint is the most effective and the most comfortable.

A gamboised cuisse is considerably lighter and not so inclined to slip downwards. This critter may be slung from a waistbelt comfortably, strapped around the thigh and at the kneecop/poleyn.

9) Greaves: should be light-gauge metal if you use them; the SCA confines the legal target area to the body from one inch above the knee on upwards, so greaves more fall into the realm of safety gear. Many SCAdians make do with just the demigreave, which is at least a good idea. Most SCA greaves are open-backed gutter greaves. There is increasing interest in completing 14th-c.-style armors with fully enclosed cased greaves, hingeing front and back halves. Either sort of greave covers both inside and outside ankle bones. Misaimed swordstrokes breaking these were the reason the SCA made blows at the knee and below illegal.

10) Sturdy boots, at least, for the feet. Very many SCAdians fight in army boots -- cheap, available, protective, and good traction. More medievally, steel sollerets, preferably fitted over close-fitted turnshoes rather than trying to overshoe army boots with these things, as they then become oversized as well as redundant.

11) Sword: a length of rattan around one meter length overall, no striking edge narrower than 1 1/4" breadth, hilted to taste. Simple cross hilts of automotive heater hose (the stuff sold by the foot at Pep Boys or Kragen Auto) or rattan or metal are seen, and rather 17th-century basket hilts are all over the place. These protect very effectively and cheaply, and balance the sword as well. A sword's balance point should be about a handspan down from the crossguard. It's the balance that makes a sword act like a sword. The handgrip should be of rounded-rectangular cross-section, so your hand can feel if you've got your striking edges properly aligned; hitting someone with the flat of your blade rather than the edges doesn't count!

12) Shield: that flat heater would be workable with some edge reinforcing and some padding there as well, at least a strip of thick leather. This is to preserve both your shield and the other fellow's rattan a little while longer. We've come up with ways to hide the padding, too. Wooden shields tend not to last terribly long -- expect maybe a season from one. Glueing on a facing and a backing of fabric seems to help quite a bit; bare wood just seems to crumble after a little while. You've noticed that flat shield tries to rotate around your arm and lie down flat. Taking wooden shields and curving the whole thing makes the shield much better balanced around your forearm, so your shield works for you much better.