finished the liner for my bascinet

knitebee · Post by **knitebee** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 2:13 am

I just finished sewwing the liner for my bascinet. 100% hand sewn, linen with 5 layer of mid weight fulled wool for padding. My daughter counted and said the quilting had 298 knotted stitches in it. All I know is it took 2 - 5hrs a day for 5 days to complete. Hopefully tomarow I'll get the vervelles riveted to the helm so I can stitch the liner in.

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 2:48 am

You're doing yourself proud, Brian. Nice slice o' armourcake.

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:33 am

That is one sweet looking liner.

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:44 am

Brian,

That is very nice. What are the materials that you used for the wool? is it like a sheet or loose? It looks most excellent. Good job!!!
RPM

knitebee · Post by **knitebee** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 2:45 pm

Randall, i used large flat sections left over from making a cloak. Before fulling it was a medium weight Italian Wool from www.Denverfabrics.com (I just checked they dont have the same wool I used on there site at the moment). Once fulled it fluffed up to well over 1/8in thick. The wool was cut out 1/4in smaller than the pattern used for the linen outerlayer. Heres a picture of all the pieces before being sewn together.

elden · Post by **elden** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:20 pm

That looks great!

What is a knotted stitch? Well, more exactly what sort of knotted stitch did you use? Also, once the outer linen layers are quilted to the wool, how do you finish the edges and still have it look like the linen was sewn right-sides-together and turned?

knitebee · Post by **knitebee** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:07 am

Um... sorry for the confusion "knotted stitch" is just my terminaligy for the the quilting stitches(since I dont know what else to call them) which are just a simple single stitch finished with a regular ol' square knot.

As for the finished edges I did sew the bottom and around the face opening together and turned it inside out before putting the wool betweent he layers. For the rest of the edges I did what I think is called a running stitch, which when pulled snug makes hte stitches allmost dissapear. I did a crude drawing to explain what I'm talking about.

elden · Post by **elden** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:02 am

Ah! Ok, I think I get it now. Thanks.

So the quilting is done with single points of stitching like an old fashioned matress rather than a line of stitches done with a continuous thread like conventional sewing?

I've done some padded lining for bits of armour before, but I didn't get the results I was looking for, and you did.

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:59 am

Brian,

thanks for the info. Looks outstanding!

RPM

lorenzo2 · Post by **lorenzo2** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 10:49 am

Very pretty! Please tell us how the wool works out heat wise after you use the helmet a few times.

Maelgwyn · Post by **Maelgwyn** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:10 pm

You mean, how it compares with HIGH-TECH INSULATION foam for retaining heat? I'm fairly sure the wool will do just fine. Also for wicking moisture away from the head and providing evaporative cooling. In my experience with raw wool stuffed in a linen liner it is dramatically more comfortable than foam padding in the central Texas climate.

Magnus The Black · Post by **Magnus The Black** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:34 pm

SUPER SHARP!

Klaus the Red · Post by **Klaus the Red** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:16 pm

Brian, did you use any kind of whip stitch to gather up the edges of the wool layers of the dags (for lack of a better word) before closing the shell and liner around them? I'm trying to do a new handsewn liner similar to yours right now using cotton batting layers instead of wool, and I'm having the darndest time closing up the dags because the layers are so springy. I already botched one attempt, and I'm thinking of cheating on the second one and machine sewing the liner and shell together around the dags, tacking the bundled layers of padding to the wrong side of one or the other along the stitch line, then turning the shell/liner right side out so it ends up enclosing the padding, and hand sewing the bottom and face closed. Does that sorta make sense? I'm curious to know exactly how you did your assembly.

Klaus

Ceddie · Post by **Ceddie** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:39 pm

Brian, can you post a preformance review after you have had a chance to fight in it a couple times?
We are working out the bugs on liners for a few helms. I'd like to know how the wool holds up vs the cotton batting.

knitebee · Post by **knitebee** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:40 pm

Ceddie, I have a little bit of experiance previous to this helm. First off cotton seems to absorb and hold sweat where the wool seems to wick it away and allow it to evaporate. In my currently limeted experinace wool padding feels lighter and cooler once soaked with sweat than cotton padding. Both are far better than foam or other modern paddings. I dont know yet how well the wool will hold togeth in the long run yet. Seeing tht it was fulled up to a point where I could cut edges wouldn't unravel at all I'd think between that and the fact it is a woven fabric not pressed like cotton batting that it should hold up better but that is just a logical guess. I will definatly post some updates this summer when I get to try it out in the heat.

Klause, first off your proposed method should work well I've used simular befor on other projects. An this particular piece I didn't stitch the padding layers together on the dags first. After the bottom and side edges where stitched and the outer layer turned inside out I put the padding layers in and safety pinned all the layers together at multiple points. Once this was done I ran a row of the quilting stitches across from side to side right below the dags, greatly helping in holding hte layres still while closing the dags. At that point I had to retrim the dags in the padding so that they where far enough from the edge of the linen outer to have room to stitch them shut and to recenter them as a few of them had shifted some (Well that and the fact I didn't get every layer cut out exactly the same).
I had originally planned on closing the top first then adding the padding but decided to do opposite that since I wasn't sure how much the thickness would change the fit (didn't enough to matter in this case). On the very bottom corner between the dags I wasn't able to use the running stitch used to close up the rest of it so I used a wip stitch through this spot.

Hugeus · Post by **Hugeus** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:12 am

Very nice work!

I bought a bascinet (unlined) a few months ago and haven't so far made the time to pad it - seeing your work has given the kick necessary to pull out the proverbial finger and get to it. Last night I made the pattern & cut out the linen & wool piece which all just need a little trimming then sewing. Hopefully will be finished in the next week or two to be followed by photos and combat testing review. Thanks for providing the inspiration to get my act together!

Hugh

rameymj · Post by **rameymj** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 4:51 pm

It sounds like the liner is 3/4" thick (or maybe a little less). Have you tested its impact absorption yet?

I did a liner stuffed with poly/cotton fabric scraps. My feeling is this construction type should be about twice the thickness as closed cell foam, but I have limited experience.

Teutons · Post by **Teutons** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 6:33 pm

Fine work!

Klaus the Red · Post by **Klaus the Red** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 6:54 pm

To paraphrase Robert "Mac" MacPherson, none of the surviving period liners is thicker than a pot holder. You are correct that they are suspension liners and provide additional protection by holding the helmet away from the head.

I started my new hand-sewn liner last week and it's nearly complete- I will post pics soon.

Klaus

Sagebowman · Post by **Sagebowman** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 2:03 pm

I am glad I read the last two or three post about the liners being fairly thin and used as suspension more than padding. I haven't attached my liner, but sticking the liner inside of my basinet and then testing the fit, I have found that the helm sits very tight against the sides of the skull. The wieght and the inward pressure of the dome cause a good bit of pain. It maybe that the helm is setting too far down causing the pincing. Any suggestions to keep it from sitting so low even with the liner?
Also, what is a good spacing between the holes along the edge to sew the liner in and how far from the edge?

Thanks Gene

Klaus the Red · Post by **Klaus the Red** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:00 pm

I keep in mind the principle that one is trying to protect the head from the helmet, not the other way around! I've seen instructions to make a cone-shaped liner to match the inner dimensions of the bascinet, but what makes more sense to me is to make it fit closely over your head with a rounded top. With a bascinet or any peaked helmet, the peak should form a sort of attic of empty space over your head and never make contact with the top of your skull. There will be a little contact in a ring around the brow and temples, but not so much as it causes you discomfort, by any means.

It sounds as though either A) you have too much padding pressing between the helmet and the sides of your head, B) the closing string at the top of the liner (if you have one) is not cinched in tight enough so the helmet is riding too low, or C) the helmet is just too darn small or the wrong configuration for the shape of your head. Hopefully, it's B, which is easily corrected. It's hard to get the correct feel with the liner simply placed in loose. Try tacking it in around the helmet edge with temporary stitches every few inches and then try it on. Also, make sure you test it with your visor in place before settling on its final position, to make sure your sight line corresponds to your eyeslot or the right space between bars of your grill. Nothing is more frustrating than having to fight with your head at a 30 degree tilt just so you can see.
K

Klaus the Red · Post by **Klaus the Red** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:09 pm

Oh, yes- and I have liner holes about every 1/4" and about 1/4" in from the edge as well.

knitebee · Post by **knitebee** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:21 pm

Sagebowman, as to hole placement, I asked that very same question a few days before I made this post. Here it is with all the helpfull answers I got http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... highlight=

As to the other questions.
This liner is only a hair over 1/4" thick, before all the quilting stitches it was allmost 1/2".
As to the fit. It may not look like it in the pictures but my liner is of a suspension type like mentioned by others. Part of the reason it doesn't look like it is I made this helm a lot more form fit than most bascinet (IMO many modern built bascinets are to large and dont fit like many (though admitidly not all) of those in iffigies and art work.
As soon as i get to try it out I'll give a preformance review. I'm curious myself. not do to this liner but the fact I'll be fighting with my pembridge styled great helm (with leather suspension liner) over the top of the bascinet.

Heres a blury picture that shows just how close fitting this helm is. Its very comfortable.

Ancelin · Post by **Ancelin** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:24 pm

This discussion is interesting, especially as I am in the process of ordering a bascinet and that I will have to make my own liner. My question would be: if the liner is supposed to act as a suspension system rather that only padding, is it better to pattern your liner based on the shape/size of your head rather than on the interior of the helmet?

Not sure if I make myself clear. To clarify: Would you be better to make a confortable liner well fitted to the shape of your head (a sort of coiffe), THEN put it in your bascinet, cut the excess material and sew it to the bottom.

OR

Measure the inside of you bascinet and pattern you liner according to these measurements and hope that it will be confortable once you put you head in the helmet?

These two methods might lead to similar results in the end but I think the fist one might make you bascinet a little bit more confortable. After all, a good armour should be fitted to the wearer, not the other way around.

Klaus the Red · Post by **Klaus the Red** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:43 pm

Yes to both.

The critical measurement at the top of the liner is to fit your head; at the bottom, to fit your helmet. I start by drawing up a paper pattern based on the OUTSIDE of the helmet. This provides just about the right amount of excess fabric to allow for the fact that your liner will lose circumference once thickened with padding, like an air mattress that's smaller than your bedframe once you inflate it. Cut out your liner, shell and padding materials, pin all layers together, and do a rough test-fit on your head to see if it's going to be comfortable. Sometimes, you just can't tell until you've done the quilting. On my current one, the bottom edge corresponded perfectly to the bottom edge and face opening of the helmet, but once quilted, it was too tight around the top so I ended up adding an extra panel right at the forehead.

Ancelin · Post by **Ancelin** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:24 pm

Thanks for the advice Klaus. I'm looking forward working on my liner. I really look forward to receiving my new hat!

Kniggit · Post by **Kniggit** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 2:50 pm

knitebee wrote:I will definatly post some updates this summer when I get to try it out in the heat.

i guess this means you will drag me over there and FORCE me to fight you? bah! ok its been awhile since if done anyting =D

think i should fight in my greathelm? hehe

Kniggit

Ancelin · Post by **Ancelin** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:14 am

I need to give my armourer an idea of how big I want my bascinet to be.

If the liner acts as a suspension system that keeps the metal away from your head I guess that there should be "some" space between the exterior of the liner and the interior of the bascinet. In TOMAR, B. Price suggests that 5/8 all around the crown of the head is enough - does that sound about right? Assuming that the liner is 1/4 thick, this would leave about 3/8 between the exterior of the liner and the interior of the bascinet all aroud the head. Any advice on this? I want my bascinet to be as fitted as possible but I don't want to end up with a piece of equipment that won't protect me. My bascinet will be made of 14ga mild steel and it will be used for rebated steel.

Klaus the Red · Post by **Klaus the Red** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:08 pm

5/8" of space all around sounds about right (I have faith in Brian's numbers)- this allows for either a period liner plus airspace or a 1/2" SCA foam liner, and also should give your head a little maneuvering room if you need to tilt the helmet a bit to make it comfortable or adjust the angle of view through your visor.

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 4:09 am

Or, measuring circumferences, which is easier with cloth measuring tape:

5/8" extra radius, therefore 10/8 or 1 1/4" added diameter: 3.927"

3/4" extra radius, therefore 1 1/2" added diameter: about 4.7"

So, take your pick -- roughly 4 to 5 inches added circumference to give room for padding. 10.5 to 12.7cm for our SystÃƒÂ¨me International correspondents.

Stacy Elliott · Post by **Stacy Elliott** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:45 pm

Just keep in mind the liner will compact...

My linen filled Linen liner started very snug to the face and head.

After only about 2 hours of my head being in the helm I have found the liner has compacted so much that I have to remove it to refill it.

Stacy