Roman lamellar

[Xanthier]

Curious.
I keep seeing references to roman lamellar but not really any examples if it is any different from other suits I see.

Anything specifically different in a roman suit vs others?

Looking at later period coptic influence.

[D. Sebastian]

Much art shows leather bands between the rows; possible instances of the tops of the lamellae rivited to the leather bands; distinctive scalloped edges on the curias; varangian bras; ...etc...

or are you looking at another aspect?

[Dan Howard]

There was no true lamellar worn by the Romans. The stuff that is called lamellar is actually "locking scale". Scale armour with additional lacing/wire/staples to connect adjacent scales. Earlier stuff, such as that on the Mars of Todi is also scale armour. The first true lamellar in the region wasn't worn until Byzantine times.

[Xanthier]

Much art shows leather bands between the rows; possible instances of the tops of the lamellae rivited to the leather bands; distinctive scalloped edges on the curias; varangian bras; ...etc...

or are you looking at another aspect?

Possible.. Been looking at changing my harness around a bit and wanting to possibly go with the latest AL lamellar order. Wanted to try and make it as close to period as possible for the group I fight with. 4-5th century romano-british.

Essentially I'm going to be building a kit off of one of White Mountain Armoury's heavy cav helmets that I own.

[Xanthier]

There was no true lamellar worn by the Romans. The stuff that is called lamellar is actually "locking scale". Scale armour with additional lacing/wire/staples to connect adjacent scales. Earlier stuff, such as that on the Mars of Todi is also scale armour. The first true lamellar in the region wasn't worn until Byzantine times.

Thank you.. I did actually look at the Todi statue as one of the references.. Couldn't quite tell.

[St. George]

There was no true lamellar worn by the Romans. The stuff that is called lamellar is actually "locking scale". Scale armour with additional lacing/wire/staples to connect adjacent scales. Earlier stuff, such as that on the Mars of Todi is also scale armour. The first true lamellar in the region wasn't worn until Byzantine times.

Where's your separation line for Byzantine times? The Byzantines thought of themselves as Romans, and there are examples of Lamellar in Roman Britain (I believe that the recent find of the helm drape a couple of years ago was of lamellar construction).

Alaric

[Dan Howard]

Lamellar is defined as small plates laced or wired together in such a fashion that no backing material is required to maintain structural integrity. There was none of this type of armour in Roman Britain. It was all scale or locking scale.

[Primvs Pavlvs]

I would have to check Robinson, but I believe there has been at least one find of Roman lamellar for horses.

[Xanthier]

That's kinda what I figured that everything was scale.
You do a search on lamellar and alot of it does come up saying the romans used it.

Fortunately I am going with Felix's smaller scales so I think I can make it look pretty close to a scale setup as well.
Now my only question is what to do with the shoulders.

[Sextus Maximus]

I have recently been talking to Felix about using the same scales he is making but using a different hole design that would be closer to the Roman locking scale. I haven't heard from him but if it is possible I know it would look alot like the Roman locking scale which is four holes at the top of the scale on both sides of the corners with one hole in the middle of them. The side holes lock into the other scale and the middle hole is laced with the backing. I was also thinking of making Scale Maille which is weaving the scales into a chain shirt, but I think I might not since it includes alot of chain maille ability that I do not have.

[Maelgwyn]

"True" lamellar entered the Roman empire with the Sarmatians before 175 AD and no doubt there was some of it in Britain when 5,500 Sarmatian cavalry were stationed there that year. Subsequent groups of Sarmatian and Alan lamellar-wearing tribesmen from the steppes fought with and against western Roman forces in multiple battles through the 5th century AD to my knowledge. Cultural interactions (and battles) between the lamellar-wearing descendants of these peoples and the Byzantine empire continue as long as there was a Byzantine empire. How long the lamellar armour within the western Roman sphere of influence remained "true" and when scales began to be more commonly laced together with wire rather than leather thong, silk ribbon or hemp cord is a matter for further discussion and research.

Leather lamellar horse armour laced with leather thong was found at the Dura Europos Roman site in Syria, dated to late 3rd century as I recall. This is leather lacing holding the pieces togtether, not locking scales on a backing. I believe Simon James uses the term lamellar for these but I will need to check my notes.

There is an iron lammelar find from Somerset, currently in the British Museum, with evidence to indicate there had been leather lacing holding the scales in a pattern that would appear to make a backing unneccessary. Quoting author/historian/reenactor Dan Shadrake from another forum "A cluster of iron lamellar plates were found in Somerset SW Britain & have been dated to the 3-4th Cent A.D. The leather had perished, but sulphides had leached out of the iron plates and formed a positive cast (like an iron fossil) of the leather thonging that once held it together. (2.8cm wide & 5cm high oblong plates). " A picture of these iron lamellar scales can be found in the Osprey Late Roman Cavalry book and in Shadrake's "Barbarian Warriors" book.

The collar found at Carlisle seen here http://www.carlislemillenniumdig.co.uk/ ... armour.jpg
and here
http://www.carlislemillenniumdig.co.uk/ ... front3.jpg
clearly shows both the wire staples that link scales into rows and the wire staples that link the rows together, making any backing structurally unnecessary (though I have read reports from reenactors who feel a lining is needed to keep hair and other things from getting snagged on the staples). If this is not "true" lamellar then it is close enough for my purposes. Other examples that are clearly locking scale were also found both at Dura Europos and Carlisle. See http://www.carlislemillenniumdig.co.uk/ ... scales.jpg for a nice example.

Lamellar is defined as small plates laced or wired together in such a fashion that no backing material is required to maintain structural integrity. There was none of this type of armour in Roman Britain. It was all scale or locking scale.

If it makes you happier Dan you can call these British examples locking scales wired or laced together or you can call them tiddlywinks. They fit your definition of lamellar as far as I can see. I call them both lamellar.

A search of the forum will show that Dan and I have had this discussion before. One of the strengths of this forum is that people loony enough to care about minute details of armour worn in Roman Britain and the correct terminology for those details can actually discuss them here.

[Maelgwyn]

oops, double post.

[Emeraldweapon7d]

I would have to check Robinson, but I believe there has been at least one find of Roman lamellar for horses.

Are you thinking of the Scale armour for a horse found at dura europos?
Btw also found at dura europos were 2 lammilar cuis, one red one black, i think robinson wrote they were made from rawhide that had been laquored, if you want to be sure on this check around page 162 in Robinson's book armour of imperial rome.

[white mountain armoury]

a couple of the cuisses from dura are realy a lamella hybrid as they containa couple of diff lacing methods, they are infact not locking scale, although most of the scale from dura was locking scale.
The Dura cuirboli lamella cuisses differs from regular lamella in that the rows attatch to the rows above and below by being laced to the lacing as opposed to being passed through its own hole.
There are also fragmentary remains of a copper alloy scale cuisses, the scales are attatched to a backing and to each other, traditional locking scale, so there in one find you have limb defences for the same part of the body, both made from scale, but one is wired to a backing, and one is laced with no backing or evidence of any backing. To me that seems to be a good example of the use of locking scale and lamella used by the Romans at the same time.
Dura could be thought of as the ass end of the empire, so it may or may not serve as an example of what was used elsewhere.
It is my understanding that the complete Dura horse trappers are infact metal, one copper alloy, one iron, and are attatched to a linen backing. There are many trapper fragments as well.
There were also many many loose and partial assembled scale fragments from dura, some are locking scale laced to a backing, but many are wired to each other with no form of backing what so ever, and many scales found have the more traditional lamella hole pattern of 2 holes at the top, 2 on each side and 2 at the bottom.

IMHO Dura shows scales being tied to each other with cord and no backing, being tied to each other with wire with no backing, and being tied to each other with wire and additionally to a backing.
To me it serves as evidence for the use of cord laced lamella in the pre byzantine roman military.
The finds in England, coupled with the presence of sarmation cav certainly shows that lamella was found from one end of the empire to the other.
Excavations at Dura Europos 1928/1937, final report VII, arms armour and other military equipment by Simon James is pretty much the most complete and recent work on the find with the author examining much of the remains personally, the author points out quite a few conflicts in some or Robinsons research.
An interesting note on the cuirboli lamella cuisses, the smooth hide side was the inside

[Dan Howard]

OK found some lamellar. James ("Final Report") specifically states that the armour in which the scales are stapled top and bottom "superficially resemble lamellar" but he does not seem to think that it is true lamellar (p.112). However, later in the passage he says that some of these examples do not have an integral liner, which suggests that these examples at least, could be defined as lamellar.

Regarding horse armour, it is all unambiguously scale, not lamellar. Two layers of coarse linen are used suggesting that the foundation was an integral part of the structure.

Regarding the limb defences, James says that they have been misidentified as lamellar because previous published photographs show only the back where most of the lacing is (p113; photos on pp123-24). However, once again there doesn't seem to be a foundation, so this too should be defined as lamellar based on the above definition. As already mentioned, the smooth side of the hide is on the inside not the outside as is normal. James thinks that this is to reduce chafing since there is no foundation to serve this purpose.

So, on closer reading of James' work, I'd like to change my opinion and concur with those above who claim that there was lamellar at Dura Europos. I'd also like to caution people against relying on Robinson or Nicolle in relation to Dura Europos. James' "Final Report" supercedes previous publications and shows them to be flawed in many areas. Both Robinson and Nicolle seem to define "lamellar" as anything in which the scales overlap upwards and "scale" as overlapping downwards, regardless of the foundation or type of lacing.

FWIW this is James' definition of lamellar vs scale: "Lamellar differs from scale in structure in that the small plates of which it consists are not dependent on attachment to a cloth backing, but are attached directly to each other." p123.

[Sextus Maximus]

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... 5a8f2eb3a8

This might be interesting if anyone is looking for Roman Like scale. All I need is more people who would be willing to buy scales like this so that Felix can get a large order in.