What battle would you like, if you could plan one?

[Duke Icefalcon]

If you had the choice of planning a battle for an event, what would you come up with and why? This year at Pennsic, we will see a refreshing chanbge in some of the battles. I would like to get some input from all of you so I might influence future battle decisions for Pennsic and other large melee events.

Personally, I am a big fan of town battles. I used to love these at Pennsic. This is a battle that will be brought back for this year's Pennsic War. It will give us something different to plan for tactically and strategically. I enjoy thinking these battles out before hand....

I would love to see a Knights versus Mercs at Pennsic, too.

Enjoy!

[DarkApprentice]

How about all bastard swords? That would rock, don't you think?

Or maybe all bastard swords or sword and buckler only. That could be cool too, then those guys who aren't authorized in anything but sword and shield could play too. It would be especially cool if halfswording was allowed to. Then it would be a totally kick ass fight.

DA

[Nissan Maxima]

Lets see how that knights vs. mercs thing works at AWP first, but I like the way you think.

Last year at the war Tessa the huntress (Princess of Aethelmark) ran a small res woods battle that included combat archery. Easily the most fun I have had in a battle in ten years. The trees make killing with a bow harder, and face it, killing with a bow is normally way too easy. But you really had to look where you were going because archers were hard to spot. It was kinda like bow hunting for people. Wait, it was exactly bow hunting for people. fun fun fun.

[Aaron]

Vaugely recreate a historical foot-battle, secretly....

Now the people might need a bit of a sense of humor or sense of history, but you could have a number of foot-battles (for example, the Battle of Towton, etc...) where you already have the numbers, arms, units, etc.

It would be massively scaled down, but interesting. Instead of 200,000 (or something) that were at the Battle of Towton, you could have 200.

Then hand out cards so people can place themselves where they would go in that battle (this group was spears only, located 300 paces from....full armoured knights with poleaxes go here), assign commanders and let the groups go at it, unscriped and uninformed about WHICH battle you've set up.

You could go armour-as-worn or whatever if you wish. Like pepper and salt, it's a personal choice...

Then when the "mini-battle" is done, let people guess what the set up was, and then let them know what it was. Might even offer a prize to the person who guesses right -- like an Osprey book about the battle or time-period.

What did the SCA do differently than the historical battle. How did we deviate? How did we remain the same?

If Duke Paul replaced Harald Hardråda at the Battle of Stamford Bridge, would England be a colony of Sweden?

Re-set-up with a different on-foot battle (for example Battle of Hastings...etc...some of the Roman battles), but again don't give out the secret on which one you set up for.
Rinse, lather, repeat.

It would be interesting, I think. Or I'm not making sense again...

It would make some people crack the books when they get home, just to see what battle they fought in, and how much better (or worse) they did.

Just an idea.

The Osprey books would help.

-Aaron

[Skorri]

Town battle, very interesting ! We get to close off the merchant area for a few hours then ? Reminds me of a scene from Blazing Saddles ! Woohoo ! O well, wishingfull thinking

[Baroness Bianca]

Last year at the war Tessa the huntress (Princess of Aethelmark) ran a small res woods battle that included combat archery. Easily the most fun I have had in a battle in ten years. The trees make killing with a bow harder, and face it, killing with a bow is normally way too easy. But you really had to look where you were going because archers were hard to spot. It was kinda like bow hunting for people. Wait, it was exactly bow hunting for people. fun fun fun.

Actually, Tessa was Queen of Aethelmearc at Pennsic....she'll be Queen at Pennsic again this year too (she's my sister!) Anyway, she LOVES combat archery and has always enjoyed woods battles. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the res woods battle return this year!

If you're going to Gulf Wars, make sure you tell her hello!

Lady Bianca

[Diglach Mac Cein]

OK, you asked for it.....

The "Big Pennsic" War Schedule -


MONDAY

Bridge Battles (3)

Field Battle #1 - After everyone grabs a bale to clear the bridges...

Scenario - 2 Armies meet on a bridge, victor drives the opponent into the open field for a running battle....



TUESDAY

Mountain Pass Battle - Winner of the Bridge Battle gets "X" number of bales to set up as they please -

Field Battle #2 - After everyone grabs a bale to clear the passes...


Scenario - After being driven from the bridges, one army withdraws to the mountain passes dividing the two lands - the defeated army is pushed to a open glen to continue the fight...


WEDNESDAY[b/]

Woods - Old school style - Winner of the Mountian Pass chooses thier entry side for the woods...

Defeated in the mountains, one army retreats to the woods, in an attempt to draw the opponent in and counter-attack.


[b]THURSDAY

Hadrian's Wall Battle - Winner of the Woods gets to remove "X" number of bales from the wall - loser defends, but gets to set up the "defenses" first ("X"+10 bales)

Field Battle #3 - After the bales are cleared.


After their defeat in the woods, the army retreats to a line of small frontier forts - the loser of this battle is driven into the open field.....

FRIDAY

The "MOAB" (Mother of All Battles)

See Next Post.

[Skutai]

Resurrection. Spears only.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

And for Friday - - - - The Mother of All Battles... Pennsic Style.....

Bear with me on this description - I imagine some hashing out would need to be done...

Scenario -

After their defeat at the border, the army retreats to their castle for re-inforcements - and will defend it, and the town just outside the gates, with their very lives......

This battle uses the WHOLE Pennsic field!


The Field is divided into 3 parts -

The First 1/3 is the "Attacker's Zone" - At the back is the Res point. The dividing line between this third and the middle third is divided by 3 passes (passes from the hills to the town)

The Middle 3rd is the "Town Zone" - a number (5 - 9) of buildings, various sizes, scattered in the center of the field. There are 3 flags marking the center line of the battlefield - These should be in buildings.

The final 3rd is the "Defenders Zone" - The castle proper.


RULES:

1) EVERYTHING IS IN PLAY - including CA and siege weapons! Siege weapons CAN be moved closer at the battle runs. Must be "stepped down", moved by hand and "re-set" to fire.

2) At the start of the battle, the defender can put 100 men in the Attacker's Zone, 5 spear lengths from the "start line". These men represent outriders / patrols.

3) At the start of the battle the defender can put up to 200 men in the "Town Zone". These represent the City Guard.

4) The defender gets "x" number of haybales to set out as siege works - temporary walls. (Those pool noodle things from a few years ago would work too) The walls CANNOT be set within 2 spear lengths of the castle wall, the town, or the edge of a pass. A wall 1 bale high can be stepped/fought over, 2 bales cannot.

5) RESSURECTIONS - Attacker can ALWAYS Res. Defender can res until the town "falls" - the town falls when 2 of the 3 banners are "dropped". A dropped flag CANNOT be re-raised.

6) There is a banner in the center of the castle grounds - when this falls, or the defending King surrenders, the battle is over.


Fight, then switch sides after a break to recover ammo, move bales.


Fastest time wins!


Yep, this battle is a HUGE grinder. You not only have to fight a long, nealry running fight, but you have ot do it TWICE. The commanders have the extra challenge of keeping attrition down.

[Skutai]

I've read the description of the MOAB before, but I'm not sure what the fascination is. For the defenders, if you're not one of the 300 fighters that is about to get run over, it's just a castle battle.

Allow me to submit this modification.

Attacker has unlimited resurrections. Defenders have two.

Defending army forms up in the Attacker Zone. Upon a killing blow the defender resurrects at the back of the Town Zone, but can't leave the town zone. Attacker res point advances to edge of Town zone once Attacker zone is cleared.

Upon receiving their second killing blow the defender resurrects inside the castle, but can't leave the castle. Attacker res point advances to edge of Castle zone once the Town is clear.

That way everyone fights in all phases of the battle.

Of course, you'd have to force several large breaches in the castle or the battle would take all day.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

Except in the original senario - the Defender has unlimited res untl the town falls...

Who said that your entire force has to stay in the castle?

Part of the challenge - passive or agressive defense?


But I don't think the MOAB is complete or perfect - I'm just a concept guy... I'll leave it to the guys in charge ot work out the messier details, if they choose to do it...

[Skutai]

With relatively even sides, if the defender has unlimited resurrections and is allowed to set up a defensive stance in the town, the town may never fall.

It would be even less likely to fall for the side that has to attack second.

[Felix]

Guys here is a friendly nudge that is more than a little direct. If you want different scenarios then you had better be working your ass off moving hay bails, driving stakes, painting lines on the field. We hear it time and time again from the battlefield staff that things are just too hard to set up. Each year we have a handful of people that is 90% of the same crew each year doing the work while we do pickups or go back to camp and drink beer (been keeping track personally for the last two years and it jives.)

If you go to Pennsic each year and do not help with at least one set up or tear down then I am talking to you. I really do not want to hear a "well I help" if so great bring two friends with you this year. I will be Pennsic King this year and I can guarantee you that as crazy busy as I will be this year I will help set up for at least one battle so will all of my squires. So if you think its beneth your station or that you are to busy or tired, bunk! If we get the help we get to have the complex toys plain and simple. No help, you get more of the same stuff you are bored with. So be creative but also organize work crews to make it happen.

We are going to have some fun scenarios this year we need people to pitch in if you want them again in the future. The biggest and hardest day to set up for will be the first day which I believe they set up for on Sunday but you can check with the battlefield coordinator through the Pennsic website. The week will also be filled with various no war point battles that will require set up after the point battles. For this to go smoothly help will be needed to set up and tear down. Or we can all stand around in the sun and bitch about not doing anything new or not having enough battles, you choose. Thanks for almost letting me rant!

[Diglach Mac Cein]

Like I said - it was just a concept with a lot of work that would need done to flesh it out whole....

With relatively even sides, if the defender has unlimited resurrections and is allowed to set up a defensive stance in the town, the town may never fall.

It would be even less likely to fall for the side that has to attack second.

[Skutai]

Irish: Not meaning to criticize, I was just lending my 2 cents and hopefully improving the scenario by raising questions about the details.

Felix: I've been going to Pennsic since the 80s and have, now and then, helped lug hay bails. But I often wonder, with hundreds of people milling about before the battle, and a long wait in which... I'm not sure what is happening (marshalls chat? Ambulances get into position? The Queen finishes breakfast?)... that this source of free, present, and bored labor is not utilized.

I admit to not being fully aware of the logistical specifics.

[Mord]

Ok, I'd like to play a modification of an Afghan game (their national sport, or so I'm told) that we played in Myrkfaelinn lo, these many years ago...

1. Hang on a pole a stuffed (with things like wheel-weights and buckshot) "animal" (a pig, a goat, etc.). Put all the players on a starting line about 200-300 yards from the pole.

2. Give everybody one dagger. No shields. No swords. No axes. No polearms. Backstabbing is permitted, just because...

3. The object of the game is to bring back the "animal" without getting killed.



Mord.

[DWolfhunter]

Mord you sick f**ker, that golldurned pig weighed like a hundred pounds! (wet sand and leather, for them that never saw it)
But it was fun. How about a armored version of Coppertree Harpseal rugby?

[Gregor von]

Hey, how about one large Jeopardy Battle !!!!

Every man for himself, any weapon, ...............

[critter]

Hey, how about one large Jeopardy Battle !!!!

Every man for himself, any weapon, ...............

hell yes...... I'm so down with this thought...

[Syrfinn]

Dont think this was ever a war point, but one of my most favorite battles at Pennsic one year, was I think held by Calontir.

Was a castle battle, with mazes, and make believe stairs, that if you were going up them, you had to go to your knees to cross.

Was a blast.

Wouldnt want to see it as a war point, just mainly due to the number of folks, but would love to see it come back as another battle during the day.

[Mord]

Mord you sick f**ker, that golldurned pig weighed like a hundred pounds! (wet sand and leather, for them that never saw it)
But it was fun. How about a armored version of Coppertree Harpseal rugby?

Aww...I didn't know you cared, Hamish!!

Just for the record, I didn't make the piggie in question. The maker did, however, put 45 lbs of wheel weights and sand in the blasted oinker. The first person who grabbed it would up on their butt.

My favorite part was when Bear of the Ax killed himself to keep the game going...

Mord.

[raito]

And for Friday - - - - The Mother of All Battles... Pennsic Style.....

We did the MOAB, WW-style last year, and it mostly worked.

We only had 2 passes, because WW doesn't have Pennsic numbers.

We didn't have the temporary seigeworks, because we didn't have extra bales.

What did not work was the last-minute decision to allow the defenders to res at the town banners. It was just too easy to get killed, reach back to a banner, and be alive again. The second assault really had no chance, as the defenders figured this out by watching while they were attacking.

Other than that, it was a bunch of fun, and since I'll be MIC again this time around (unless I win Crown again), it'll again be the last battle of Saturday.

[freiman the minstrel]

Hey, how about one large Jeopardy Battle !!!!

Every man for himself, any weapon, ...............

Actually, now that you mention it, it's really odd that this hasn't been done at pennsic.

Three thousand enter, one leaves.

Cool thought.

f

[Wil]

Four or five years ago, I went to a boffer fighting event hosted by the group Knighthaven. They ran all sorts of fighting scenarios throughout the day, but there is one that has really stood out as a world of fun in my mind.

Two teams on either side of a bridge, with a res point about thirty feet back from each end of the bridge (it was a real bridge). The bridge extended for about fifty feet, then there was a large sort of landing, which I think was someday going to be a gazebo but was never covered. After the gazebo was another fifty feet of bridge, at a very subtle angle. One hour on the watch, the objective was to be in possession of your half of the bridge plus the gazebo when time is called. Driving the opposing force completely off the bridge is an automatic win.

This led to some very interesting tactics once everyone got the first ten minutes of wild violence out of the way. On the actual bridges you could only fight three men side-by-side, whereas at each end of the bridge or on the gazebo there was room for five or six fighters to engage three opponents. Thus, trying to take the gazebo or fighting at the end of your opponents bridge was always a real meat grinder. Also, the more bridge you take the farther you are from your res point (and the closer your opponent is to his), so as you get closer to victory your reinforcements slow to a trickle, while the enemy is respawning in rapid waves.

This resulted in a really creative war scenario, which I think would translate really well to SCA fighting.

TTYL

~Wil

[Adriano]

I like the every-man-for-himself battle -- if it were shieldless.

Here's an odd idea -- Bridge battle; timed; resurrections -- with the kicker being that whenever you resurrect, you switch sides. The balance of forces could swing rapidly one way or another.

[Richard Blackmoore]

My suggestion from the 1980's when Pennsic was much smaller was the "I Fought All Day & Fought Every Single Fighter At Pennsic Battle". It only would have worked well back when you had 500 to 700 fighters max per side. 700 fighters takes about 12 hours to run with a half hour lunch break.

Even up the sides. Form a large circle with one side. Form an inner circle with the other side. Both Kings stand in the middle with a timer and a big noisemaker that makes one sound for lay on and a different noisemaker that makes a distinctly different sound for cease fighting.

You start fighting at 8AM when the start fighting noisemaker sounds. You fight the person in front of you for 45 seconds of all out fighting with your weapon of choice. Call any good shots as good, but keep fighting except in the case of injury.

The kings have the noisemaker sound for cease fighting at 45 seconds. You now have 15 seconds for the outer circle to move slightly so that every fighter is now facing a different fighter, to introduce yourselves, breathe and start again when the noisemaker blows again. During that 15 seconds, the kings can send their representatives out to counsel or toss out anybody who isn't playing in the spirit of the game (running all over the field, throwing tantrums, ignoring signals and marshals). Having all the fighters stare at you while you throw a tantrum should eliminate the likely hood of a tantrum in the first place.

No winners, just a lot of experience and chance to say you fought every fighter at Pennsic. With more fighters or to shorten the overall time needed, you would need to cut the time to 30 seconds per bought to help get everyone in. It is great for newbies, so what if the Duke killed them five times in forty five seconds. They fought a Duke for forty five seconds!!!

If someone drops out due to injury, fatigue or other reasons? They drop out. Big deal. The kings can have people rotate from the outer ring to the inner ring and vice versa as needed to help keep the sides even, as fighters drop out of the game. Once out though, you can't come back in.

No winner will be declared. Those that last through the day get the pleasure of having faced every single brave fighter one on one and OK, that alone gives them some bragging rights.

The nice thing about this is that you can learn about calibration differences without it costing anyone a loss in a tournament. If you thought you hit the guy with a good shot and he did not call good? So what. You get to keep fighting and try to whack him again. He called good and you "know" you hit him light? OK, you know that he may be used to lighter calibration than you are.

A variation on this is to only allow a single weapons form. The disadvantage is that if it isn't sword and shield, a big chunk of the newer fighters may not be authorized in that form yet. But it would be great fun with 6' spears or bastard swords for example.

[Gregor von]

Hey, how about one large Jeopardy Battle !!!!

Every man for himself, any weapon, ...............

Or one large -fighting unit- Jeopardy Battle !!!

Each fighting unit must wear the same alike tabards and keeps attacking all other teams down to the last man. Each unit can be up to 10-12 fighters large. (any weapons)

Every Fighting Unit for themselves !!!!

[Aaron]

That ROCKS Richard!

Nice idea!

-Aaron

[Adriano]

Wow -- 700 fighters would have 244,650 potential one-on-one matchups. If you had 350 fights going at once, I guess it would just be possible to do it in a day. Quite an idea. At the end, would they all be better fighters -- or just really tired and spaced-out? Or both?

I'm already jazzed about going to Pennsic this year. I wonder when we'll see a schedule of battles? (And yes, I'd be happy to help set up.)

[rev.jc]

Thats it, next year I am going to pennsic Iso envy you guys!

[olaf haraldson]

Well, you get a bunch of black and redf mats space out around the field... the black ones are tar bits, the red ones lava...

If you get the reference, thanks for coming to Winter War...

[Richard Blackmoore]

Wow -- 700 fighters would have 244,650 potential one-on-one matchups. If you had 350 fights going at once, I guess it would just be possible to do it in a day. Quite an idea. At the end, would they all be better fighters -- or just really tired and spaced-out? Or both?

I'm already jazzed about going to Pennsic this year. I wonder when we'll see a schedule of battles? (And yes, I'd be happy to help set up.)

LOL. Well, if you only have 700 fighters, you have 350 on each side. That works out to 350 minutes of fighting, or 5.83 hours not including lunch and injury breaks. Easily done in one day.

You are correct that fighters who are out of shape, inexperienced or who don't know how to pace themselves will be tired, spacy and may not make it through the entire day. However those that make it through, will hopefully have learned something about themselves and their opponents, it can't help but make you a better fighter.

Think about it this way. I think everybody has fought in a bearpit tournament. Those often last 2 hours or in some cases, quite a few more. Would you rather stand in line in the bearpit getting tired, or fight for 45 seconds, take a 15 second break, repeating that sequence for 5.83 hours, or would your rather be in a 4 to 6 hour bearpit where over half of your time is typically spent standing on line (even if you are a decent fighter, but not a Jade, Uther, Stephen or Jade)?

My design was for Pennsic. It works much better with a smaller number of fighters obviously. You can then also increase the break time to 30 seconds or more to allow better rest time between boughts if you wish or add 10 to 20 minute periodic bathroom breaks, which is one of the biggest problems with a large number of fighters (I think, no one ever actually tried to implement my idea, back then Pennsic was a woods battle, a field battle and a bridge, that was it).

The other negative to my plan is that you fought every fighter on the OTHER side. You did not fight every fighter present. To do that, it simply takes too long with a large number of fighters, though you could probably do that over a number of days without a problem if it was a camping event without much else going on.

Richard

[mordreth]

The landschnecht battle
Pikes, Halberds, and Greatswords. A small percentage of each army could have sword and buckler. no heater shields, or kites
that make all you late periods guys happy?

The early period
shields, swords, maces, and one handed spears. A small percentage of each army could use danish axes. No pikes, no polearms.
That makes me happy

I think there would have to be some modification to how combat archery would be used to avoid it becoming a shooting gallery in the landschnecht battle.

[critter]

The landschnecht battle
Pikes, Halberds, and Greatswords. A small percentage of each army could have sword and buckler. no heater shields, or kites
that make all you late periods guys happy?

The early period
shields, swords, maces, and one handed spears. A small percentage of each army could use danish axes. No pikes, no polearms.
That makes me happy

I think there would have to be some modification to how combat archery would be used to avoid it becoming a shooting gallery in the landschnecht battle.

I'm down with this thought too.....

[Scott]

I like the idea of everyone fighting everyone. Instead of an inner circle and an outer circle, have two parallel lines. You fight the guy across from you. When the whistle blows, everyone takes a few steps to the right. When you get to the end of your line, you wrap around to the beginning of the other line. If you keep going long enough, you will get back to your starting point after fighting everyone else on the field.

Hmmm.....

- Scott