Flat Topped Kite Shields

Oswyn_de_Wulferton · Post by **Oswyn_de_Wulferton** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:49 pm

Hey all, I was wondering where I might be able to find more information on the flat topped kite shield. The "research" I have seen seems to indicate they were a hybrid as the heater started to become more developed (kind of like a proto-heater). I am attempting to slowly recreate a 12th century Crusader, and I have heard that the flat topped style was starting to be developed around this time. Searching around the internet, it gets a bit hard to find extant examples in period art, and sites that look reliable. Also, I have heard that earmines (sp?) are accurate for a portrayal of this kind. Any information or pictures would be wonderful. Thank you very much.

PS. (If earmines aren't legal for SCA, is there any easy way to make something look like them? Thanks.)

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:23 pm

Yes, kites had their rounded tops cut off, and I believe you have the date app. correct. One of these does exist, and it was made, and modified later, because the lion is (I think) missing a little of it's head.

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 5:50 pm

There are quite a few contemporary pics - if you know where to look. The Aberdeen Bestiary - English about 1200 - has two illustrations with them in - see the Bonnacon and the Tiger links.

Then there is the Hortus Deliciarum produced in Alsace, on what is now the French-German border in the late 12th century. The text on this link is in French, but there is an English version at http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... en%26lr%3D - unfortunately the links to the pics don't seem to work for the English version. Care needs to be taken with this one, because it is a 19th century copy - the original was lost in a fire.

Both round and flat-topped kites appear in Peter of Eboli's Liber ad Honorem Augusti - produced in Italy about 1195.

Then there are the ones I've attached below. In fact, there are plenty of representations - it's just a matter of finding them.

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 5:58 pm

Some more flat-topped kite shields.

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:15 pm

And yet more flat-topped kites.

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:25 pm

And still more . . .

Oh, and there's a mid-12th century representation of Geoffrey of Anjou (the founder of the Plantagenet family) here

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:33 pm

And here's the shield mentioned by Alcyoneus above - it's known as the "Seedorf" shield, and it's pretty obviously been cut down from a round-topped kite.

Hope this is of help.

PS: What are "earmines"?

white mountain armoury · Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:58 pm

Holy smoke Eg, lots of excellent pics.
As to Ermines, i can only think of the little critter

Oswyn_de_Wulferton · Post by **Oswyn_de_Wulferton** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:23 pm

Hey Egfroth, thanks for all the pics. It looks like it was a late 12th century invention, which is really close to what time I am considering. It was something I heard about, and actually my current shield is really close to the same look as those. I thought my last heater was a bit squat and pudgy at the bottom, so I decided to start the curve about halfway down. Sorry about the bad spelling about the straps. Its supposed to be enarmes (aka the straps that hold the sheild to your arm).

Geoffrey of Blesedale · Fri Apr 21, 2006 6:03 am

Who says that enarmes are not SCA legal? You just need proper hand protection, such as a full gauntlet.

brunoG · Post by **brunoG** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 6:36 am

Egfroth wrote:Some more flat-topped kite shields.

The "Roland" is also from the San Zeno MAggiore Duomo of Verona, it is carved onto a semi-column of the main doorway.

There are two of such bas-reliefs, the other depicts another warrior with a polearm, I lost both the pics I took when I visited the church.

Oswyn_de_Wulferton · Post by **Oswyn_de_Wulferton** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 8:47 am

Geoffrey, I was not sure whether enarmes are legal or not for SCA. I was really wondering if anyone had used them in SCA combat and any adjustments that had to be made for the type of fighting we do (safety or otherwise). Thanks.

Corby de la Flamme · Post by **Corby de la Flamme** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:22 am

My persona moves forward through time, staying 800 years ago today. So over time I've moved from something very kite-like to something more heater-like.

Here are two pictures of what was probably the best example of that effect that I had. This shield was made by the amazing Baron Reynard of Lochmere, a professional woodworker/yacht builder who uses marine grade plywood, West Systems epoxy, and in the case of this shield, edge reinforcement of carbon fiber. He made this shield about 8 years ago, and it lasted a good 4 years of use, even after I cut some wood out of the back because back then, his shields were very heavy.

My new one isn't!

Anyway, two pics from Atlantian Crown Tourney, Nov 2003:

As an experiment, Reynard is also very graciously making me a shield with what I think will have the deepest curve on any SCA shield anywhere--when sitting on its "back" with its face up, the inside top of the curve will be 8 3/4" from the ground. I'm going for the wrap around effect seen in 12-13th century illustrations like some of those above in this very thread.

I'll post some pics of that when I get it.

And enarmes--if you mean using straps for a handle, there's no problem with that in SCA use. You just need that hard protection mentioned by Oswyn. I've actually found myself able to grab the pommel of a few swords using my shield hand, still inside the shield straps. Ask Sir Sinclair.

If you mean the strap that goes over the shoulder, that's technically called a guige I believe, and it is legal too, as long as you aren't using it during the fight to control or hold up your shield. That makes your shield magically become armor. But they're handy for hauling the shield around.

Oswyn_de_Wulferton · Post by **Oswyn_de_Wulferton** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:31 am

Thanks for the info. My shield has a bit more of a straight edge and then curve, but looking at building a new one anyway, so it might be something to try. I would love to see the pics once the deep shield is done, as well as how he managed to get that deep of a curve. I always liked the idea of making a DEEP war shield that covers from my chin to the ground (or around my shins). Can you point me in the direction of the guige being "armour" for shields? I know a couple of people who use them for bigger shields like scutums and such.

On the statue of Roland carved on the column, what is the guard wearing on his hand and the leg closest to us? I can see that there is a maille chausse on the other leg, anyone know why he only has one leg armoured? I think that I will start using something like that as a drive to work towards instead of trying to work around the Mac Bible (and finding full images of people in Conicals). Thanks all.

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:04 pm

OswynHaddock wrote:It looks like it was a late 12th century invention, which is really close to what time I am considering.

Actually, it first appears in the first half of the 12th century, but was certainly very commonly in use by the end of the century.

On the statue of Roland carved on the column, what is the guard wearing on his hand

Nothing (!)

and the leg closest to us?

Presumably woollen hose and a shoe.

I can see that there is a maille chausse on the other leg, anyone know why he only has one leg armoured?

We can only suppose, but the shield leg would commonly be the one "out the front", and therefore most likely to be hit - at least in infantry combat. On horseback, presumably it would still be the most vulnerable side . . If you could only affiord a limited amount of mail, that's the leg I'd be armouring.

Oswyn_de_Wulferton · Post by **Oswyn_de_Wulferton** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:23 pm

Thanks for the info. I was asking about the armour on the hand as it looks like there is a glove over the maille that extends just past the elbow. Wasnt sure if there were greaves or just woolen chausses. I stll am not sure exactly when in the 12th century I am planning on being, so it is nice to know they were in use from the early parts on. What exactly do you mean by "out in front"? I would think that either leg would be vulnerable to attack.

Thaddeus · Post by **Thaddeus** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 2:48 pm

It's actually the sleeve of the tunic worn under the mail. The hand is bare. the picture in AAoMK is a bit clearer. Eg would you have a larger version of that pic from the cloisters?

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:05 am

Thaddeus wrote:It's actually the sleeve of the tunic worn under the mail. The hand is bare. the picture in AAoMK is a bit clearer. Eg would you have a larger version of that pic from the cloisters?

Yes, that's right. The sleeve is pushed up the arm a' la Michael Jackson.

Sorry Thaddeus, that's the best copy I have, though I've seen better copies of some individual figures from this pic.

Corby de la Flamme · Post by **Corby de la Flamme** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:07 am

OswynHaddock wrote: I stll am not sure exactly when in the 12th century I am planning on being, so it is nice to know they were in use from the early parts on.

Here's something you may not have thought of.

If you like to display heraldry, then doing so with a kit prior to the 2nd crusade is incorrect. That includes heraldry on your shield, unless your heraldry is "generic" enough to pass for the sort of random stuff you see painted on shields prior to the codification of heraldry. In chronicles of the 1st crusade, no one's heraldry is mentioned. In the second, the kings' heraldry gets described, and by the third, every nobleman's arms get listed.

Heraldry caught on fast in a big way in the 12th century--in 1130 no noble had it and in 1190 every noble did.

Also, the earliest I've been able to document a real "coat of arms"--a surcoat with the entire arms of a nobleman on them as the single large display on the surcoat--is somewhere around 1230, maybe 1215.

So, if any of that display is important to you, pick your time carefully.

That's why my arms are on my shield, but only a reference to them appears on my (and most of my squires') surcoats.

(Yes, I'm aware we see 12th century heraldic surcoats on templars and other fighting orders, and perhaps some folks involved with the King of Jerusalem. That's not the same as personal heraldry.)

By the way, I'd love to be wrong about this, so if anyone can point me to a picture of someone wearing a real coat-of-arms prior to 1230, I'd be one happy norman.

By the same token, anyone who can show me documentation for hard leg protection prior to 1215 or so would also earn my gratitude.

Oswyn_de_Wulferton · Post by **Oswyn_de_Wulferton** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:05 am

Thank for the info about the heraldry. I was thinking of the later half of the 12th century (just past the second crusade, but before Jerusalem fell) so heraldry on my shield at least would be explainable. I was thinking that one of the tabards with the Jerusalem COA would be pretty cool, but was it reserved heraldry, or were members of the "Jerusalem Guard/Marshallette" allowed to wear it too (not sure of the proper title there)? How early were ailettes seen? That would seem like a personal heraldry thing as well.

Also, Eg, would you happen to have a full picture of that map that you posted the small part of eariler in this thread, or info where I could find the whole thing? I have an idea formulating in my head. Thanks.

Corby de la Flamme · Post by **Corby de la Flamme** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:39 am

OswynHaddock wrote: I was thinking that one of the tabards with the Jerusalem COA would be pretty cool, but was it reserved heraldry, or were members of the "Jerusalem Guard/Marshallette" allowed to wear it too (not sure of the proper title there)? How early were ailettes seen? That would seem like a personal heraldry thing as well.

I've got no idea about the appropriateness of the use of the Jerusalem arms. Ask BdeB, I think he has them tattooed on his body somewhere.

The earliest I've seen ailettes is about 1230, but then I haven't gone looking for the earliest use of them.

BdeB · Post by **BdeB** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:56 am

No tattoos on me Corby, though I have often wondered what I would look like with a tattoo of my face, on my face.

To answer the question, what are you trying to portray, that is what I would ask you? I have to speek in general terms, since I don't know this for 100% certain (and I don't have time to look it up), but i'd say it was doubtful that common foot solider, sergant, or knight would have the entire coat of arms of the Kingdom on thier surcoat. (Maybe, MAYBE! if they were royal household guards.)

I think it far more likely that they had some heraldric livery element on there, like a badge. Even more likely, they had nothing. While surcoats were developed in the east, and more knights had them there, eariler than in say, France, the likehood for the common solidery is that they didn't have them.

Now badges on shields are another story. Sheilds were certainly carrying simple heraldic charges (check out your Osprey books) denoting 'ownership' to a particular lord or regilous house.

The sad truth is that if you are looking for something for the SCA, just paint your arms on your shield. Too many things wrong from the get go...

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:34 am

Corby,

See the attachment for surcoats which at least reflect the colour scheme of the shield, even if they don't have the actual "coat of arms" on them. It's from the Winchester Bible - English, some time about 1170 (though the details to me suggest somewhat later).

Oswyn,

Sorry, mate. I got it from a book on the Crusades, and the attached information is all I have. It MAY have been one of Stephen Ruciman's Crusades series, or perhaps one by Ernle Bradford. But eirher way , IIRC it was published at the latest in the 1960's, so that edition would be hard to get hold of easily.

brunoG · Post by **brunoG** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:47 am

historical enarmes sets

brunoG · Post by **brunoG** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:49 am

the knight of Santa Giustina (Padova a.k.a. Padua)

Corby de la Flamme · Post by **Corby de la Flamme** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 9:06 am

Thanks Egfroth,

Illustrations like that are the sort of documentation I've already used for the heraldry I wear. I've also got some examples of the main charge being referenced on the surcoat.

Lucky me, my loving wife got me a copy of Oakshott's The Two Winchester Bibles, a gigantic oversized folio that reproduces all the best illuminations from those works full size. Strangely enough, if you really want to do some Norman research, that expensive book is available through interlibrary loan, even though it was an edition of only 1000.

In The Two Winchester Bibles there's even a line illo that I swear looks like a 12th c. Norman man wearing a tight fitted button sleeve!

brunoG · Post by **brunoG** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:32 pm

the verona's warrior from another angle (fresh pic)

Glen K · Post by **Glen K** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:51 pm

Corby is cool because he has an awesome-looking SCA kit. When I'm Matt's squire, that's how I'm gonna look.

On another note, I wonder: has anyone made/used a shield with such an extreme curve in it as is shown in many of the 12th century illustrations, the ones that look like a comlete half-cylinder? I'd be interested to know if that is a practical or impractical type of defense, to whit was the illustrator exaggerating the curve to get the point across or is it (rather, could it be) an accurate representation???

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:29 pm

I'd love to read this thread, but Egfroth, that hugely long URL you posted makes it run off the screen.

Could you PLEASE use http://www.tinyurl.com if you're going to post a URL that long?

Effingham

Corby de la Flamme · Post by **Corby de la Flamme** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:27 pm

Glen,

First, thanks for your compliment.

Second, I actually have a deeeeeep curved shield in the works, courtesy of Baron Reynard, an astonishingly accomplished wood worker, boatwright and bender of wood.

Its design is for its back center edge to be 8" from the floor when laying on the floor face up.

I really want to try it, but I think I may be the worst possible choice for a shield of this size, since I typically fight with a more open shield than anyone, period.

Oswyn_de_Wulferton · Post by **Oswyn_de_Wulferton** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:39 pm

Let us know how it works out. Any chance this friend of yours will take commissions for really deep shields (seeing a war flat-topped kite the approximate length of an SCA scutum, and being able to actually get that full wrap around effect)?

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:07 am

Effingham wrote:I'd love to read this thread, but Egfroth, that hugely long URL you posted makes it run off the screen.

Could you PLEASE use http://www.tinyurl.com if you're going to post a URL that long?

Effingham

Sorry, mate. The site is here. But thanks for the tinyurl address. I'll put it in my favourites for future use.

Unfortunately, the links on the translated version don't work. You have to use the French version if you want to see the nice piccies close up. And I don't know how to get the links to translate (OK for me, I guess - I can read French, but no good for people who can't). Maybe Babelfish would help?

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:11 pm

Egfroth:

You mean like this: http://tinyurl.com/zhppc ?

It works, mate. Just put the whole URL in.

Effingham

BdeB · Post by **BdeB** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:18 pm

Corby de la Flamme wrote: I really want to try it, but I think I may be the worst possible choice for a shield of this size, since I typically fight with a more open shield than anyone, period.

I'm still perfectly willing to take it off your hands.

Then I could look like this (see attachment)

well without the porn stache and hippy hair....

Glen K · Post by **Glen K** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:31 pm

Glen,

First, thanks for your compliment.

Heck, I mean it! As a matter of fact, the Crusader outfit that I halfway got done looks almost identical to yours, down to the color scheme! You'rs looks way cooler than mine ever did, though. I've been meaning to redo my shield and get a comlete set of mail, probably butted (since I've spent all I want to/can on the riveted stuff for my 11th century impression).

I really want to try it, but I think I may be the worst possible choice for a shield of this size, since I typically fight with a more open shield than anyone, period.

Well definitely keep me up to date on that, because I'm really interested to know the dynamics of that shield in a (quasi) combat situation.

Flat Topped Kite Shields

Flat Topped Kite Shields

Kite to Heater Transitional Shields in use

One issue of vanity and display to consider

Winchester Bible