Shield Stats

Broadway · Post by **Broadway** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:08 am

Greetings!

Does anybody have any solid measurements and shapes on historic heater shields?

Like from period examples, or, say, taken from effigies... that sort of thing?

What I'm really interested are heater shapes and sizes and the era it existed...

Like, take for instance, the Black Prince heater... what are its measurements?

Or, does anybody have a side shot of this effigie of Gilbert Marshal? http://www.michaela-august.com/knight_effigies2.jpg Can you get up close enough to measure the shield?

Not concerned with a specific region or era... but if you want to include that info, that's cool.

MoB · Post by **MoB** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:37 pm

Dante,
There was a great article in the Tournaments Illuminated this issue discussing shield shapes and sizes. If I remember correctly the article gave references and sites. The issue is not online but maybe one of your local crew has a copy.

Mord · Post by **Mord** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:47 pm

There is a book; it's in German; it's at home. I have to find it. Please be patient.

Mord.

Broadway · Post by **Broadway** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:51 pm

The latest TI is sitting on my dining room table. I just haven't opened it yet. Thanks for the heads up. I'll look tonight.

Tristan vom Schwarzwald · Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:36 pm

Dante della Luna wrote:The latest TI is sitting on my dining room table. I just haven't opened it yet. Thanks for the heads up. I'll look tonight.

If it doesn't violate copyright, please share the dimensions here...

BdeB · Post by **BdeB** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:49 pm

I glanced at that article. It looked funky.

Effigies are the way to go. If Mord has a book with dimensions, go that route.

Syrfinn · Post by **Syrfinn** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:53 pm

Ok, always wondered about this with effigies.

Granted, have never done the research on this, but how do we know that the shield size on the effigies were the actual sizes used in combat?

Then again, I have always been one who has wondered that most of those shields, if they are actual sizes, were they ones used on horse, and if they were predominatley going to be on foot, would they be larger.

Just things that go thru my head at times.

BdeB · Post by **BdeB** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:52 pm

Think of it this way.

While it is safe to say that in general, the armour is usually of a later period than what the deceased wore (takes time to carve stone afterall), the likiness that they would screw up something like a shield seems small.

After all, these effigies were being paid for by the deceased relations. Would you want them to look right or not if it was say, your father? Usually the effigies are made to follow the fashion trends of when they were MADE, but still...50 years or less difference? That's pretty good odds.

Mord · Post by **Mord** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:15 pm

BdeB wrote:Think of it this way.

While it is safe to say that in general, the armour is usually of a later period than what the deceased wore (takes time to carve stone afterall), the likiness that they would screw up something like a shield seems small.

After all, these effigies were being paid for by the deceased relations. Would you want them to look right or not if it was say, your father? Usually the effigies are made to follow the fashion trends of when they were MADE, but still...50 years or less difference? That's pretty good odds.

What do you mean by right? Heraldry in the 13th and 14th centuries told the world just exactly who you were and your place in that world. Obviously, on your tomb, the heraldry, then, identifies yourself, your family, and your relations.

Mord.

BdeB · Post by **BdeB** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:20 pm

Right = To Spec.

If I commission a portait of me and my Nascar (not that I have a Nascar) and they instead draw me next to a semi, don't you think I would be pissed?

BdeB · Post by **BdeB** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:22 pm

Besides, i'm not saying they are infailable, just much more likely to get it right than someone from the 18 or 19th century....

justus · Post by **justus** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:50 pm

I can imagine a shield being reduced in size for display on an effigy, especially if it were there simply as a display of heraldry,

At the same time the shields displayed on the tomb of William Marshal and his son are quite large and seem to be the size and shape depicted in contemporary art.

It is more likely that the shields depicted on effigies are an accurate, but not comprehensive, view of the shields in use at the time the stone was carved.

Here is a poor side shot of that shield. Looks like shoulder to knee. I may be wrong, but I would imagine that the shield was sized to the user rather than being a standard "size"

-Justus

Mord · Post by **Mord** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 6:50 am

BdeB wrote:I glanced at that article. It looked funky.

Effigies are the way to go. If Mord has a book with dimensions, go that route.

...And now that book with dimensions:

The source:

Kolhmorgen, Jan. "Der mittelalterliche Reiterschild. Historische Entwicklung von 975 bis 1350 und Anleitung zum Bau eines kampftauglichesn Schildes." Karfunkel-Verlag, (2002). ISBN: 3935616104.

The core of this source is a catalog of shields from various dates. I suspect the dates are approximent. All of the shields are heater or more accurately triangular. The shape varies. Each shield is described, but the author conveniently provides basic information on pages 127-129.

From Landgrafen Heinrich I. von Hessen, 1292-1308: 76 cm high, 56 cm wide, 15 mm thick.

From Raron von oder Weingarten-Schild, um 1300: 80 cm high, 75 cm wide, thickness not listed.

From Burggrafen von Stromberg, um 1300: 76 cm high, 53 cm wide, 12mm thick.

From Herren von Welfenberg, um 1300: 62 cm high, 47/41 cm wide, 9 mm thick.

From Schild der Schenken won Schweinsberg, 1300-1320: 54 cm high, 40/37 cm wide, 7 mm thick.

Ein nicht zugeordneter Schild: 60 cm high, 47/45 cm wide, thickness not listed.

Der (jungere) Schild der Schenken won Schweinberg, um 1350: 61.5 cm high, 51.5 cm wide, 15mm thick.

Der Schild der Herren von Muchenheim, um 1350: 61.5 cm high, 46 cm wide, 8mm thick.

Der Schild des Stadthalters Loew von Steinfurth, um 1380: 54 cm high, 45 cm wide, 10mm thick.

Der Schild der Herren von Dernbach, 1350-1400: 49 cm high, 36 cm wide, 10mm thick.

The sheild of the Black Prince 1376: 73 cm high, 60.5 cm wide, 15 mm .
thick.

The shield of King Henry V of England, 1422: 69 cm high, 59 cm wide, thickness not listed.

Mord.

Ceddie · Post by **Ceddie** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:01 am

COOL!!!!

Syrfinn · Post by **Syrfinn** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:19 am

Bah, now I have to do metric conversion.

edit - Ok did my conversions.

Looks like most shields were 30inches or below in length and 25inches and under for width.

Very interesting.

Still wonder though if those shields were those sizes due to them mostly being used from horse and not foot.

Also would wonder on height for most those users and the comparison between their shield length and how tall they were.

Just things tumbling around in my brain right now.

Mord · Post by **Mord** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:25 am

Syr Finn wrote:Bah, now I have to do metric conversion.

Try buying a metric ruler. Often very handy in this game.

Mord.

Broadway · Post by **Broadway** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:33 am

Thanks to Sir Mord for the measurments and to Sir Justus for the side shot of that effigy!

Sir Fynn... Jehan converted them in the other shield thread... here they are:

From Landgrafen Heinrich I. von Hessen, 1292-1308: 76 cm high, 56 cm wide, 15 mm thick. (30" high, 22" wide)

From Raron von oder Weingarten-Schild, um 1300: 80 cm high, 75 cm wide, thickness not listed. (31 and 1/2" high, 29 and 1/2" wide)

From Burggrafen von Stromberg, um 1300: 76 cm high, 53 cm wide, 12mm thick. (30" high, 20 and 3/4" wide)

From Herren von Welfenberg, um 1300: 62 cm high, 47/41 cm wide, 9 mm thick. (24 and 1/2" high, 18 and 1/2" to/or 16 and 1/4" wide)

From Schild der Schenken won Schweinsberg, 1300-1320: 54 cm high, 40/37 cm wide, 7 mm thick. (21 and 1/4" high, 15 and 3/4" to/or 14 and 1/2" wide)

Ein nicht zugeordneter Schild: 60 cm high, 47/45 cm wide, thickness not listed. (23 and 5/8" high, 18 and 1/8" wide, give or take a cm)

Der (jungere) Schild der Schenken won Schweinberg, um 1350: 61.5 cm high, 51.5 cm wide, 15mm thick. (24 and 1/4" high, 20 and 1/4" wide)

Der Schild der Herren von Muchenheim, um 1350: 61.5 cm high, 46 cm wide, 8mm thick. (24 and 1/4" high, 18" wide)

Der Schild des Stadthalters Loew von Steinfurth, um 1380: 54 cm high, 45 cm wide, 10mm thick. (21 and 1/4" high, 17 and 3/4" wide)

Der Schild der Herren von Dernbach, 1350-1400: 49 cm high, 36 cm wide, 10mm thick. (19 and 1/4" high, 14 and 1/4" wide)

The sheild of the Black Prince 1376: 73 cm high, 60.5 cm wide, 15 mm .
thick. (28 and 3/4" high, 23 and 3/4" wide)

The shield of King Henry V of England, 1422: 69 cm high, 59 cm wide, thickness not listed. (27 and 1/4" high, 23 and 1/4" wide)

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:54 am

So the conclusion is that if you are going to use a giant heater shield you should be wearing MAIL from head to foot or you don't look period.

Duane W · Post by **Duane W** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:04 am

Finn;

Don't confuse the game we play with what they were doing in the 14th century. As armour grew more protective the shields start growing smaller. Eventually they go away completely as the armour has developed to negate a cutting edge. ( I didn't say piercing or smashing blow)

Large shields are still in use for lightly or unarmoured footmen or special troops, such as crossbowmen, who need added protection because of the way they do thier job or the inability to afford armour.

Since the effigies are of the knightly class ( read armoured) they are correct for the knights either mounted or on the ground.

As an additional note , I like wearing these smaller sized shields when fighting with an epee de guerre ( hand and half sword). The combination of shield, sword and armour is quite effective.

Alexander

justus · Post by **justus** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:26 pm

Stop the presses! I've got a much better of Gilbert's shield.

I'm just going to have to go over there myself. It seems like all the pictures of the Marshal effigies are taken to purposely frustrate the efforts of re-enactors.

-Justus

MoB · Post by **MoB** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:58 pm

Sweet thread. THANKS!!! Sir Mord for the info!!

Jean Paul de Sens · Post by **Jean Paul de Sens** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:40 pm

Popping it into Excel, and running descriptive statistics...

Medians:
Height -> 25.45" with a 3.9 inch standard deviation
Width -> 20.2" with a 4.1 inch standard deviation
Thickenss -> .44" with a .124" std deviation

Pretty dang thick eh?

However, plugging in some density for several different woods gave some interesting masses, running the gamut from 1.44 to 10 lbs depending upon the material used. For the ones with no thickness I assigned them the average thickness.

Interesting.

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:48 pm

Syr Finn wrote:Also would wonder on height for most those users and the comparison between their shield length and how tall they were.

Ding!Ding!Ding!

I wonder that all the time. Of course, I've recently cut my heater down (see page four of the "Show us your shield" thread), so I don't recall exactly how large it is. I also don't remember the dimensions of my center-grip oval, but it can also be seen on that thread.

I also notice that none of Mord's references describe the late 15th century (1470's would be even better). I'm working on a new period oval shield just for fun, but I'll let folks know how it turns out.

[Come to think of it, all of my shields are just for fun...]

Mord · Post by **Mord** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:09 pm

"I also notice that none of Mord's references describe the late 15th century (1470's would be even better). I'm working on a new period oval shield just for fun, but I'll let folks know how it turns out"

"Der mittelalterliche Reiterschild" does not have the answer to your question. The work pretty much stops at 1422 (Henry V's shield). However, all is not without hope. The Metropolitan Museum has some 15th century shields. As usual, I need a little time to look up the documentation. Stay tuned, folks...

Mord.

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:21 pm

Sir Mord wrote:"Der mittelalterliche Reiterschild" does not have the answer to your question. The work pretty much stops at 1422 (Henry V's shield). However, all is not without hope. The Metropolitan Museum has some 15th century shields. As usual, I need a little time to look up the documentation. Stay tuned, folks...

Fantastic. Thanks, Mord!

justus · Post by **justus** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 4:42 pm

Remember we are talking about a time when everything was made by hand, one at a time.
I would also think that the steady change in shield shape and dimension was not arbitrary but due to the specific requests of the fighting men of the time. Somewhere someone said:

Ã¢â‚¬Å“I need a shield that is this much shorter, and has square corners instead of roundÃ¢â‚¬Â

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 5:01 pm

Alot of people use big shields because they don't want their expensive plate cuisses to get beaten up into bumpy metal mush. People want to keep their armour looking reasonably nice.
Others do not want to get hit in the legs anymore. I have permanent nerve damage in my shield side leg....hell most SCA knights probably do to some degree.
I am worried about places where certain individuals hit so hard that people will walk around with stupid barn doors to keep from getting hit in the legs- making SCA combat basically a "who hits the helmet first" game. This also causes alot of inside fighting that I find very uninteresting to watch, but that's just me.
We are not all made out of money. Replacing shields and cuisses is not something people want to do every six months. It's hard to fight every week- look right and keep your stuff in good condition. How many people have access to a decent armourer?
It's all difficult.
Taking all these things into account I cannot blame people for using those bigger shields- they just don't look right. Sort of like a civil war soldier with a...I don't know...something that doesn't belong.

Brandr · Post by **Brandr** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 5:14 pm

Dante della Luna wrote:who quoted Jehan's conversion
The sheild of the Black Prince 1376: 73 cm high, 60.5 cm wide, 15 mm .
thick. (28 and 3/4" high, 23 and 3/4" wide)

Excellent!!!

My shield is within a few fractions of an inch of the Black Princes and my armor is targeted with about 10 years of his period. I am happy!

Does any one have any data concerning the physical dimensions of the Black Prince? Height? Weight? Is it even possible to find such data?

Mord · Post by **Mord** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 7:30 am

Sir Mord wrote:"I also notice that none of Mord's references describe the late 15th century (1470's would be even better). I'm working on a new period oval shield just for fun, but I'll let folks know how it turns out"

"Der mittelalterliche Reiterschild" does not have the answer to your question. The work pretty much stops at 1422 (Henry V's shield). However, all is not without hope. The Metropolitan Museum has some 15th century shields. As usual, I need a little time to look up the documentation. Stay tuned, folks...

Mord.

Now that it's tomarrow:

Nickel, H. "The Seven Shields of Behaim: New Evidence." "Metropolitan Museum of Art Journal (Annual Periodical)." Volume 30, (1995) pp 29-52.

Seven 15th Century shields are discussed. The shield seem to be only for display.

1. A tournament targe: Squareish, with a lance notch; 56 X 40.5 cm. Probably concave. Third quarter of the 15th century.

2. A tournament targe: Square, with a lance notch: 48 X 43 cm. Mid 15th century.

3. A tournament targe: I can not describe the shape, but it has a lance notch, 51 X 40.5 cm. 2nd half of the 15th Century.

4. A tournament targe: squareish with rounded corners, with a lance notch; 53.5 X 45.5 cm. Partially concave. 2nd half of the 15th Century.

5. A pavise: 57 X 42 cm. 15th century.

6. A pavise: 66.7 X 48.3 cm. 15 century.

7. A pavise: 48.3 X 33 cm. 15 century.

All of these shields are German, with decoration: the heraldry on these shields is the same, consisting of a heater shield, a great helm and a bird of prey.

Mord.

Duane W · Post by **Duane W** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:15 am

Hi Mord;

For future reference ( so you can sound shophisticated in the trivia of ecranche type jousting shields) that "shield notch -thing" is called a "bouche". The French word for mouth. So I guess when I'm jousting , I'm sticking my tongue (lance) out at my opponent. :twisted:

Alexander

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:20 am

Is the Bouche a hole to see through- what is it's purpose?
-V

FergusStout · Post by **FergusStout** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:35 am

I believe it is to seat the lance during jousting.

Peace,

Fergus

Edited: I used the term couch instead of seat.

Roibeard MacNeill · Post by **Roibeard MacNeill** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:43 am

Alexander (et al),
Do you mean this?

Lothar the Wanderer · Post by **Lothar the Wanderer** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:43 am

Hope this renders right, did the metric conversion to save you all some time. (didn't, sorry, but the data is there for you, have to get back to work)

................................................................................... H-IN W-IN T-IN
From Landgrafen Heinrich I. von Hessen, 1292-1308: ................29.92 22.05 5.91
From Raron von oder Weingarten-Schild, um 1300: ................. 31.50 29.53 0.00
From Burggrafen von Stromberg, um 1300: ................................ 29.92 20.87 4.72
From Herren von Welfenberg, um 1300: ..................................24.41 18.50 3.54
From Schild der Schenken won Schweinsberg, ........................21.26 15.75 2.76
Ein nicht zugeordneter Schild: 60 cm high .................................23.62 18.50 0.00
Der (jungere) Schild der Schenken won Schweinberg, um 1350: 24.21 20.28 5.91
Der Schild der Herren von Muchenheim, um 1350: 61.5 cm high, 24.21 18.11 3.15
Der Schild des Stadthalters Loew von Steinfurth, um 1380: 21.26 17.72 3.94
Der Schild der Herren von Dernbach, 1350-1400: 19.29 14.17 3.94
The sheild of the Black Prince 1376: 28.74 23.82 5.91
The shield of King Henry V of England, 1422: 27.17 23.23 0.00

Duane W · Post by **Duane W** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:30 am

The bouche is used to seat the lance and to a limited degree help aim it (good luck with that). (Think of it as a fulcrum point for a strangely shaped teeter-totter.

) This helps support the lance whose base is couched under your arm. The ecranche shield gains its support from the guige that is strapped around the jouster's neck.

Alexander