[SCA] Buckler and Sword: Your cup of tea?

[Krieghund]

I just wanted to get a temp. check on how many people actually consider buckler and sword one of their "main" (top three, say) forms.

Other info I'd like to know:

1. How many years have you been actively fighting B+S?
2. What size buckler do you use?
3. What construction materials? Did you make it or buy it?
4. Who is the best B+S fighter you've ever seen?
5. What's your favorite tactic with B+S?
6. What weapon form do you least like to fight against with B+S?
7. Favorite?
8. What form will you NEVER use B+S against?

Thanks to one and all!

Jonah

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

Not actually fighting B&S, I can only answer a couple. The best fighter fighting B&S is Duke Max or His Highness Gunther (and to see them face off is kind of scary). TRH Gunther is very much of a get in your face fighter, very strong and will try to shield hook with a buckler, as well as being able to throw shots from out of position (being an ex-Ranger will give you the body strength to do that). Duke Max has no spine (or it is made out of rubber bands), can throw a shot from any position, and is one of the fastest fighters I have ever seen, handspeed wise. Something Duke Max does, especially with his centergrip, but also with his buckler, is a move he calls "Teleport" (his words not mine). He gets up close, and as he is moving in, he moves his sheild and leans his head to one side, while actually moving towards the other. You cheat the way you think he is going, and then get hit on the side.

[Lienhart Fischer]

2 years

mine is 13 inch's, made of plywood with a madmatt sheild boss, its quite heavy but i prefer a heavier buckler, it makes it harder to knock out of the way.

Locally Lord Perceval Gower seems to have all the right moves with the sword and buckler, it suites his style of fighting very well and his defence is amazing, you see an opening that your sure you have and BONG! the sound of being foiled.

Favorite tactic... thats a hard one, i don't seem to have a favorite tactic. I do enjoy the look of frustration when you pull off shield blocks on 4-5 shot combos.

Least Like to fight againts would be great sword, they always end up powering through and rolling the buckler over in my hand.

Favorite by far are other Sword and Bucklers

None, i'll fight against anyone

-T

[Kenwrec Wulfe]

1. How many years have you been actively fighting B+S?

About 2 years.

2. What size buckler do you use?

Currently a 12", but I will be making an 18" in the future.

3. What construction materials? Did you make it or buy it?

Currently borrowed. Will be making from 18 and 20ga 1050 steel that has been hardened and tempered.

4. Who is the best B+S fighter you've ever seen?

Cannot say that I have seen one that is particularly "the best."

5. What's your favorite tactic with B+S?

Same as with single sword - feint thrust to the face into an onside head or leg shot.

6. What weapon form do you least like to fight against with B+S?

Pole weapon.

7. Favorite?

Another B&S user, of course....

8. What form will you NEVER use B+S against?

N/A

[white mountain armoury]

Mace and buckler, not sword. Ive been using it for 4 years maybe, but have fought with a small centergrip most of my sca career, about 8/9 years
Its wood and steel, maybe 16 inches or so, i made it
Im not sure of the best buckler fighter ive seen as i dont see it much, my friend Daffyd was always excellent with his, he is no longer active.
I cant realy say i have a specific tactic with it.
I also dont have a fav weapon to go against with it and dont realy have any forms i dislike going against. I dont tend to think that way. I suppose its easier going after great weapons and spears.
Weapon and buckler vs weapon and buckler is a blast.

[Brandr]

I just wanted to get a temp. check on how many people actually consider buckler and sword one of their "main" (top three, say) forms.

Other info I'd like to know:

1. How many years have you been actively fighting B+S?

Oh about 1 and 1/2 years.

2. What size buckler do you use?

14 inch I believe it is.

3. What construction materials?

Steel.

Did you make it or buy it?

Bought in from Mandrake Armoury

4. Who is the best B+S fighter you've ever seen?

Don't know haven't thought about it in those terms.

5. What's your favorite tactic with B+S?

As they strike, I catch my opponents sword on mine at the forteza then follow with a knock with the shield against my opponents weapon forciing his blade outside of the line, then follow with a strike to finish.

6. What weapon form do you least like to fight against with B+S?

Spear....too much running once you slip the point.

7. Favorite?

Sword and Buckler....usually a long balanced fight against a knowledgeable opponent

8. What form will you NEVER use B+S against?

The closest I would come to this is florentine. That is just risky to me.

Thanks to one and all!

Jonah

[AllenJ]

1. How many years have you been actively fighting B+S?
about 2 years off and on
2. What size buckler do you use?
13.5" 3lbs 12 oz
3. What construction materials? Did you make it or buy it?
Steel- Bought from Albion : http://www.albion-swords.com/armor/merc ... uckler.htm

4. Who is the best B+S fighter you've ever seen?
Stewart Feil

5. What's your favorite tactic with B+S?
From Leignitzer's set plays
The Ubergreiffen
guy A is in Vom Tag - guy B is in Pflug
guy A cuts an Oberhau in which guy B raises his S & B and displaces it with a Schranckut
guy B wraps his bucker arm around guy A's S & B arms and pulls up- hyperextending the elbow.
guy B then either cuts to the head or thrusts to the stomach.
Beauty.

6. What weapon form do you least like to fight against with B+S?
Archer or another competent S & B guy

7. Favorite?
longsword or sword and large shield

8. What form will you NEVER use B+S against?
none

EDIT: oops, I just now realized that this was an SCA question. All my answers were done with standard WMA wasters, steel blunts and allowed grappling in mind.

[Magnus The Black]

1. How many years have you been actively fighting B+S?

1 year give or take a bit.

2. What size buckler do you use?

14"

3. What construction materials? Did you make it or buy it?

18ga mild steel center boss, with fluting. The rest is pine plywood with a rolled aluminum edging. Covered all in canvas except the center boss. The handle is oak and "roughed up".

4. Who is the best B+S fighter you've ever seen?

That depends upon your defintion of buckler. Small round sheild would be perhaps Sir Michael of the Mace but that may be too large to be a buckler.

5. What's your favorite tactic with B+S?

To not get hit.

6. What weapon form do you least like to fight against with B+S?

Two weapon, exspecially broadsword & 6 foot spear. Luckily sword & spear is a rare style in these parts.

7. Favorite?

Oh I guess Sword & Buckler or Sword & shield. It really doesn't matter that much.

8. What form will you NEVER use B+S against?

Firearms. I hate to say never. There is none that I can think of in that way. I will often chose something else though if facing a two weapon fighter or archery.

[Krieghund]

EDIT: oops, I just now realized that this was an SCA question. All my answers were done with standard WMA wasters, steel blunts and allowed grappling in mind.

Sorry Allen!
Actually, it was my bad making this an SCA only-type question.
I do want to hear from others (specifically WMA guys) as I am interested in the historical aspect of the B+S study as well.

[AllenJ]

No sweat- I suppose to make that technique I described SCA legal, you could just make sure you keep your buckler pressed hard against your opponents hilt as you counter cut or thrust instaid of binding the arms with your off hand.

But its not nearly as cool or effective.

Here's some fantastic work on S&B:
http://www.thearma.org/essays/SwordandBuckler.htm
http://www.thearma.org/essays/LeignitzerSandB.htm

[Christian Thomas of York]

I have enjoyed S/B for a while now at practices and during demos. it gives me more freedom to move and be more creative. I have found this to be effective training for my two sword training, and it allows me to work on my left handed swordplay.

1. about 3 years
2. 22-25 inch round
3. aluminum made it
4. Duke Cuan, Sir Andrew Grey, and here recently Sir Dagonet who fights with the Smallest buckler in the known world. all these gentles are from Atlantia
5. cone of defense, and step hard to offside
6. i dont
7. sword and shield
8. spear "im too fat to dodge those thrusts"

Lord Christian

[Krieghund]

Ok, I got a lesson and a half last night on "What weapon form do you least like to fight against with B+S? " from Sir Tosh. An excellent florentine fighter (with thrusting tips on both weapons) can pretty much outflank a buckler fighter every time.

Now I've got homework to do. I know there's a way to exploit this style, I'm just not good enough yet to do it.

I'll report more as I learn.

Thanks for everyone's input.....it was enlightening.

Jonah

[Morgan]

1. How many years have you been actively fighting B+S?

3 years

2. What size buckler do you use?

14" I think...the small one from Mandrake

3. What construction materials? Did you make it or buy it?

See above

4. Who is the best B+S fighter you've ever seen?

Uh..... gosh, I never even thought about it that way.

5. What's your favorite tactic with B+S?

Blocking with the B and striking with the S. LOL

6. What weapon form do you least like to fight against with B+S?

long offhanded thrusting

7. Favorite?

pretty much anything else but my absolute favorite is non-thrusting swords and bucklers. I prefer to fight with my friends rather than someone who's trying to kill me.

8. What form will you NEVER use B+S against?

NEVER? I'll face anything at all with any weapon form if requested. But I simply think that offhanded long thrusting weapon and sword is a fairly unfair fight against B+S. I'll DO it, but it's pretty boring.

[MoB]

1. How many years have you been actively fighting B+S?
two years full time

2. What size buckler do you use?
12 inch rnd center strap, no boss

3. What construction materials? Did you make it or buy it?
½ inch ply, 10 inch piece of 12 oz leather for the grip and heater hose for the edge

4. Who is the best B+S fighter you've ever seen?
Abd-al Mahdi Jamal ibn Hakim from Anstiorra was quite a joy to fight

5. What's your favorite tactic with B+S?
Hook and move with a lot of shield to shield contact

6. What weapon form do you least like to fight against with B+S?
None, B+S is my preferred fighting style and I fight all comers

7. Favorite?
Any one on the field

8. What form will you NEVER use B+S against?
See #6

[AllenJ]

Ok, I got a lesson and a half last night on "What weapon form do you least like to fight against with B+S? " from Sir Tosh. An excellent florentine fighter (with thrusting tips on both weapons) can pretty much outflank a buckler fighter every time.

Now I've got homework to do. I know there's a way to exploit this style, I'm just not good enough yet to do it.

I'll report more as I learn.

Thanks for everyone's input.....it was enlightening.

Jonah

Florentine? Isnt that a flavor of chicken? teasing....kinda.
Use alot of traverse and triangle stepping. Press your buckler to the side he attacks the most with and countercut to the arm, head or back. And keep moving to his flank.

[SirCathal]

B + S = Big Bruises on Cathal

[Murdock]

1. How many years have you been actively fighting B+S?

Ummmm i dunno. A while.

2. What size buckler do you use?

The mandrake one i think it's 14, i got a big ole 20 inch one too.

3. What construction materials? Did you make it or buy it?

Bought it 14 ga steel, i had about 3 wooden ones i destroyed.

4. Who is the best B+S fighter you've ever seen?

Hmmmm
I know some good ones. Sir Geoffery Scott got me doing it, Robert Holland did the super cool seminar in DFW i went to.

5. What's your favorite tactic with B+S?

Can't tell ya that, then i'll loose even more fights.

6. What weapon form do you least like to fight against with B+S?
Pole arm/ Spear

7. Favorite?

2 weapon, goofy stuff like inverted axe and dagger or something. Most fun though fighting against another buckler.

8. What form will you NEVER use B+S against?
Artillery

[audax]

8. What form will you NEVER use B+S against?
Artillery

Murdock is a wise man.

[Josh W]

4. Who is the best B+S fighter you've ever seen?

Benaiah!

Alcyoneus is good, too.

[Jehan de Pelham]

1. How many years have you been actively fighting B+S?

2

2. What size buckler do you use?

13" round

3. What construction materials? Did you make it or buy it?

Steel. It was purchased, I believe.

4. Who is the best B+S fighter you've ever seen?

Don't know.

5. What's your favorite tactic with B+S?

I don't have one.

6. What weapon form do you least like to fight against with B+S?

Anything besides B+S

7. Favorite?

B+S

8. What form will you NEVER use B+S against?

Anything except B+S.

I am growing less convinced that B+S is a proper weapon form for the knightly class. I think the very small heater is the way to go.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

[Krieghund]

I am growing less convinced that B+S is a proper weapon form for the knightly class. I think the very small heater is the way to go.

Interesting. What's your reasoning?

I have a hard time understanding this statement. Whereas I find the small heaters neat shields, they are far less common (and thus available) than bucklers.

Curious Jonah

[Gregoire de Lyon]

I am growing less convinced that B+S is a proper weapon form for the knightly class. I think the very small heater is the way to go.

As a counter-point to this, I offer the following pictorial evidence. (Note, I personally have no opinion one way or the other at this time).

[Murdock]

i was gonna post that same pic

i also have a few others
BUT in all of em (like the one you posted) it's only one or a very few guys with bucklers in armour.

Most have short spears or axes or such.

I've seen even fewer showing guys with small heaters on foot.

IMO most "knightly class" would fight with sort lances or poll axe type stuff on foot if given the choice

just my though

[Magnus The Black]

I am growing less convinced that B+S is a proper weapon form for the knightly class. I think the very small heater is the way to go.

Good Jehan what makes you think that? I will agree that a small heater is appropiate but I also think the buckler is as well...

[Woeg]

The following link posts a number of excellent images where it may be argued that the buckler indeed is a knightly defense:

http://www.thearma.org/essays/SwordandBucklerP2.htm

[Benedek]

1 uummm...years....guess i'll just have to say not long enough

2 i do believe it's a 14 inch

3 it is a borrow steel buckler that i believe was purchased

4 couldn't say all i know is what i have heard.

5 to trap the opponents weapon and kill kill kill

6 i hate to fight buckler againts greatsword

7 favorite would be againsty 2 stick......i love to trap both weapoons with the buckler and then whack whack whack

8 i'd try anything about once....maybe even artillery

[Jehan de Pelham]

It was mainly the I.33 illustrations and the pictures in other books showing what appear to be civilians using the sword and buckler. These and other illustrations gave me the feeling that it was men at arms that were using them, not knights and noblemen.

These evidences provided seem to tell a different tale.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

[AllenJ]

there are all those images in the Codex Manesse that show unarmored sword and bucker being used in tournaments with the knights badges and crests above their heads. This should settle the argument at least for medieval Germany as civilians probably would not recieve such treatment and appearance in tournies.

[Murdock]

these 2 rock





This leads me back to what i think Robert Hollnad said. And i am starting to agree.

The sword and buckler was carried by most men with any military training.

Being that it was one of the first things taught to pages, along with stuff like wrestling and horsemanship.


probly like folks now carying a pistol for self defense.

imo

[jester]

The evidence I have seen indicates the following things to me:

1) Sword and buckler was a popular pastime amongst young males of all social classes and may have been part of their training in arms.

2) Sword and buckler was a popular civilian weapon combination. It seems to have been more popular amongst the lower classes, though.

3) Sword and buckler were used in warfare when fighting afoot. In fact, when looking at a shield you can generally determine if it was meant for fighting afoot or on horseback by the grip. A center-grip shield is meant for use on foot. A strapped shield is meant for use on horseback. The strapped shield could be, and often was, pressed into use for fighting afoot. So while the knight (or man at arms) who was forced to dismount and fight might continue to use his strapped shield, the man who entered a combat prepared to fight afoot seems to have preferred a center grip (of whatever shape or size).

[AllenJ]

I almost totally agree with you jester. your #1 I am in complete agreeance with. #2 Seems to be true but I think it's more of an issue of affordability of armour for the higher classes than a class thing. Meaning, that as you get more armor the less you need shields. This will happen more with the wealthy people rather than the poor. Maybe this is exactly what you mean though? #3 The only thing I hesitate on is that a strict foot soldier would prefer a center grip shield to a strapped one. I really think this just has more to do with the time and the place. I agree that center gripped on horseback was less effective, but Im not convinced that a foot soldier would automatically prefer a center gripped to a strapped. Good points and thoughts though!

[Adriano]

As it happened, I just now made a buckler, which is drying from the spray paint. Carbon steel wok, about 12" across. Should ring nicely when struck. Little toy to use at Pennsic.

[Leo Medii]

1. How many years have you been actively fighting B+S?
4 (before it was "cool"!)
2. What size buckler do you use?
7 inch round/13 inch war sheild.
3. What construction materials? Did you make it or buy it?
Made the seven inch, the 13" was a Mandrake
4. Who is the best B+S fighter you've ever seen?
Me.
5. What's your favorite tactic with B+S?
Kill the opponent as he thinks he will crush me because I have a buckler.
6. What weapon form do you least like to fight against with B+S?
None. It's not the form, it's the user and the opponent.
7. Favorite?
Matched forms.
8. What form will you NEVER use B+S against?
If I REALLY am out to win a tourney polearm is the worst form to meet.

Greatest accomplishment was getting my wife to trade her heater for a 16 inch buckler for Rose Tourney this year......and move to a real man sized sheild.