What's up with the King of Meridies?

Josh W · Post by **Josh W** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:17 am

I heard something to the effect of "We won't support fencing during our reign."

Now, I'm not an SCA fencer--in fact, my kingdom doesn't even allow it--but what's up with this guy? Why all the hate for the fencers?

Angusm0628 · Post by **Angusm0628** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:38 am

Here's a copy of his posting to the Meridies Tavern...Hope it clears things up

To the members of the Known World reading this list.

I am Godwine, current Prince of Meridies. Many on your list have been
quoting and responding to their perceived directives for my upcoming
Reign.
Take this time to hear what my views actually are, then feel free to
comment.

First, I am receiving news from all over the Known World that I have
quashed
fencing in Meridies. Let me be clear! This is not true! We will not
be
sponsoring fencing during our reign, and we will not have a fencing
champion
during our reign. I do not fence. I do not enjoy watching fencing. I
have
personal views on the safety of fencing and its place in the SCA as
it
currently performed, but these are my *personal* views which are not
manifested in my royal prerogative. I do not wish to negatively
impact
fencing in Meridies.

I understand that many derive pleasure from this activity, and we
will not
interfere with that enjoyment, nor will we impede their involvement
in
fencing or rapier in any way. I am not banishing fencing or fencers
from my
presence. I am not banning fencing, nor do I wish fencing canceled
from
events that we may attend -- nor any events for that matter.
Furthermore,
please do not presume to correlate my dislike for fencing to a
dislike for
fencers. I have only been treated with courtesy and respect during
any
interaction that I have had with fencing in the past. Moreover, as
HRH
Francesca was viewing a rapier battle recently at Gulf Wars, one of
the
fighters took time out to explain to the Princess what was going on
and the
scheme of the battle, and we appreciated that.

In closing, let me say that I will not be ignoring Meridian fencing
or
rapier. At Gulf Wars, I entertained conversation with Sir Brian
McBrand and
have agreed to review the "side-sword" experiment and cut and thrust
rapier
actives as soon as he puts together a presentation. Jean-Michel has
sponsored these reviews, and we should see more of these period
actives in
the future. I hope that this completely covers my views on this
matter. Feel
free to contact me directly on this or any other subject in the
future.

In Service to Meridies,

Godwine

Wulf · Post by **Wulf** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:05 am

Sounds like he doesnt like fencing

syveken · Post by **syveken** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:42 am

here are some links:

http://scatoday.net/node/5993
http://community.livejournal.com/sca_rapier/16170.html
http://runolfr.blogspot.com/2006/04/spr ... ation.html
http://www.randomwerks.com/2006_03_26_archive.html
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/se ... nt=100&l=1
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/se ... nt=100&l=1
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/se ... nt=100&l=1
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/se ... nt=100&l=1
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/se ... scount=100

And - I think, after 6 months it's over. This reign will pass as many before. mho.

freiman the minstrel · Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:59 am

Wow,

There are some relatively heavy feelings involved in this.

freiman

Angusm0628 · Post by **Angusm0628** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:04 am

For whatever reason...Gonna be alot of folks in Meridies that are gonna take this as an insult to their way of playing and therefore at themselves......Glad I'm not on that throne...

Whether by design or accident Their highnesses just alienated a portion of their subjects...

Oswyn_de_Wulferton · Post by **Oswyn_de_Wulferton** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:35 am

Guys, this has been discussed In Kingdom to great length, and a lot of rumors have been spread around about this. Most of the stuff being heard is directly untrue. I would suggest taht unless you heard it directly from someone who was there for "x incident" (which there are really no incidents), please disregard, or treat as rumor. The fencing community in Meridies and His Majesty have come to an understanding when they first assumed the throne in April. I would humbly suggest we leave it at that.

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:45 am

freiman the minstrel wrote:Wow,

There are some relatively heavy feelings involved in this.

freiman

You scratch but only the surface with that remark...

I say good for him. Not necessarily WHAT he is saying, but that he has passionate feelings about it and is willing to stand by them.

Some say he is alienating a portion of his populace. Well, I don't ever remember reading anywhere that it was required for a crown to have a champion from every aspect of activities in the SCA. ( I could be wrong on this but I don't think I am). Besides it is good to shake up the bottle now and then and see what floats to the top.

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:03 am

The _ONLY_ thing that bugged me out of this entire thing is the "We don't think it's safe".

Is Meridies one of the kingdoms that has jousting?

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:20 am

InsaneIrish wrote:Well, I don't ever remember reading anywhere that it was required for a crown to have a champion from every aspect of activities in the SCA. ( I could be wrong on this but I don't think I am). Besides it is good to shake up the bottle now and then and see what floats to the top.

According to legend, this is inscribed on the inside of the Crown of Caid;

You rule because they believe

Sieg · Post by **Sieg** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:40 am

Baron Alejandro wrote:
According to legend, this is inscribed on the inside of the Crown of the West;

You rule because they believe

It does say that.

except,

It is the crowns of Caid.

Sieg

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:49 am

Giant ignorant dork, table for one, please. Will edit to fix.

Blackoak · Post by **Blackoak** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:54 am

Great example of why you are on the throne for a short time.

Uric

Angusm0628 · Post by **Angusm0628** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:20 am

OswynHaddock wrote:Guys, this has been discussed In Kingdom to great length, and a lot of rumors have been spread around about this. Most of the stuff being heard is directly untrue. I would suggest taht unless you heard it directly from someone who was there for "x incident" (which there are really no incidents), please disregard, or treat as rumor. The fencing community in Meridies and His Majesty have come to an understanding when they first assumed the throne in April. I would humbly suggest we leave it at that.

Oswyn,
My only point was there will be alot of thin skinned folks that even after reading his Majesty's missive that I cross posted here will take it as an insult to them by accident or design....Not passing judgement here at all just making an observation. It will be those people that will cause whatever strife etc may occur...

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:20 am

You know, I'm ambivalent to fencing in the SCA, too. Primarily because I see too many fencers doing post-period stuff.

But... man. This guy is a... well, I'm glad he's not MY king.

NOTE: I'm not deleting this post because I don't believe in deletions. I *do*, however, after some reflection, want to apologize. I should not have said this.

Further along in this thread is my apology and a note.

Effingham

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:30 am

Effingham wrote:

You know, I'm ambivalent to fencing in the SCA, too. Primarily because I see too many fencers doing post-period stuff.

But... man. This guy is a... well, I'm glad he's not MY king.

Effingham

Why? From what I gather he decided to not have a fencing champion or outwardly support the fencing activities during his reign. OTHER people took that statement and ran with it turning him into some kind of monster until he was forced to come out with an explaination as to WHY he has chosen that. NOW, that he has done that, people will nitpick his reasons apart until he is once again a MONSTER.

I have Met the man and he seemed a VERY nice easy going person and very noble. (especially when being chased by a horde of "Clean Cultists"

)

Jon Barber · Post by **Jon Barber** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:33 am

freiman the minstrel wrote:Wow,

There are some relatively heavy feelings involved in this.

You have NO idea... (yes, I've talked to most of the people involved).

Baron Alejandro wrote: According to legend, this is inscribed on the inside of the Crown of Caid;

You rule because they believe

Amen, brother.

Sir Wilhelm vonOstenbruke · Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:26 pm

I may not be a fencer, but I certainly wouldn't ruin the fun of this HOBBY for others by denying them a chance to be a champion of the crown. I think that using the excuse that it is "unsafe" is kind of a cop out. If it is that unsafe, shouldn't it be removed all together? Or are people only at risk durring the champions tourney? Not feeling this at all.

Blackoak · Post by **Blackoak** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:29 pm

Irish, I think what some people have issue with is not that he personally dislikes fencing. The issue is that he is King of Meridies. Meredies has legal fencing. He has outwardly chosen not to entertain a certain portion of his populace.

Good kings look to the good of their populace, not just the parts they like.

Uric

Winterfell · Post by **Winterfell** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:31 pm

If he is not supporting fencing, and does not like watching it, then how are they not quashing it?
It just seems rather contradictory.

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:38 pm

Sir Wilhelm vonOstenbruke wrote:I think that using the excuse that it is "unsafe" is kind of a cop out. If it is that unsafe, shouldn't it be removed all together? Or are people only at risk durring the champions tourney? Not feeling this at all.

Just for the sake of keeping the conversation going. I do not have a dog in this fight, other than offering a differing speculation on HRM Godwin's reasoning.

Sir Wilhelm:

Personally I feel shaft combat Archery is very unsafe and it is only a matter of time before someone seriously gets hurt. However, I don't see it being removed from the field? This king feels that Rapier combat done the way the SCA does it is unsafe (at least some aspect of it anyway). He is in a position to do something about it. So, without being an ass and banning it for 6 months he simply stats that he feels it is unsafe and can not support something that will put his subjects in harms way (or that he feels puts them in undo danger).

Blackoak:

rish, I think what some people have issue with is not that he personally dislikes fencing. The issue is that he is King of Meridies. Meredies has legal fencing. He has outwardly chosen not to entertain a certain portion of his populace.

Good kings look to the good of their populace, not just the parts they like.

What is a royal whim if not ones own opinion? In Calontir when Duke Garrick sat the throne he and his queen chose to regulate smoking at events during their reign by dictating where and essentially when smokers could smoke at events (telling them had to be 20 feet from a door, not under public pavilions, not smoking openly in public areas at events.)

Would you say that they chose to not entertain certain members of their populace? It may not be a popular descision with many in Meridies, but A royal whim is a royal whim. And it only lasts 6 months.

If he truely beleives SCA fencing is unsafe, could he not be acting for what he believes is the good of his kingdom by not supporting it?

Blackoak · Post by **Blackoak** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:02 pm

Well smoking has been medically proven to kill people. Fencing may be felt unsafe by someone, but what injuries have occured fencing?

Second, by his own statement: "I do not fence. I do not enjoy watching fencing." He then says he has issues on safety.

Saying I have safety issues with fencing, and will personally not be active with it or have a fencing champion. Do start with that you don't like it or watch it.

I have seen kings doing things I KNOW they do not enjoy, but they do their best to be involved as much as possible, with as many as possible. They try to bring light to areas that do not get a lot of it.

I don't have a dog in this fight either, but I am glad for 6 month reigns.

Uric

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:43 pm

ugggg

oh wait not my problem anymore

Blackoak · Post by **Blackoak** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:57 pm

I'll second that!

Uric

Kottr · Post by **Kottr** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:03 pm

Baron Alejandro wrote:According to legend, this is inscribed on the inside of the Crown of Caid; You rule because they believe

Easily verifiable legend. Inscribed on the King's Crown it does say "You rule because they believe". The Queen's Crown says "For love, honour and beauty".

Site for new crowns
Direct photo link to the inscription on the King's Crown (large)

The same saying is also inscribed on the venerable crowns.

Kolfinna

co10Broek · Post by **co10Broek** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:21 pm

Oswyn wrote:

(which there are really no incidents), please disregard, or treat as rumor. The fencing community in Meridies and His Majesty have come to an understanding when they first assumed the throne in April.

I would just like to make a factual correction here. There have been "incidents". To wit HRM Godwine interfered in the running of a household (not his own a fencer's). This interference resulted in the loss of 2 members of the populace of Meridies and a Kingdom level officer.

To the best of my knowledge (I am the Jean-Michel in the posts) the King and the rapier community never came to an understanding.

Jean-Michel d' Aix en Provence

co10Broek · Post by **co10Broek** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:44 pm

I beg everyone's indulgence for posting back to back. I wanted to make a clear separation between facts and my own opinions. What follows below is my opinion, and is based on my interactions with HRM Godwine before and after he became King of Meridies.

HRM was at one time squired to Earl Robert Glendon of Auk (who currently serves as HRM's chancelor). My first meeting with HRM was at Fighter's Collegium in Meridies (I think 2 years ago). I was to demonstrate Cut and Thrust rapier for the Kingdom Earl Marshal in the hopes that Meridies could begin to get instruction and work toward adding it to our game. I found Godwine to be rude, uncommunicative, ignorant and boorish. If it had been a different venue (say I was teaching) I would have thrown him out. I attempted to answer his questions respectfully and completely. He never answered any of my questions.
My second meeting was after he had won crown list. We were at a regional fighter practice. I did not recognize him as the person I had dealt with at FC. I introduced myself and I was quickly shutdown. Godwine explained that he believed rapier fighting was unsafe, and claimed to have facts and figures and research to back this up. Evidently there is a database somewhere which lists all the injuries we fencers never report. And that is the basis for his "safety" argument rapier can't be safe because we don't report the injuries.
My third meeting with him was when he interfered with a fencer's household. He told the fencer not to give his associates a particular token, nor to use a certain title. The reasoning was that the token and title were protected by the White Scarf Treaty. When the fencer pointed out HRM's errors, HRM threatened to ban rapier.
This was not the first time he had used the threat, and for those who can remember Meridies ending the epee experiment 10-11 years ago, Godwine was the Group Marshal who decided that people cleaning up a site 1 week after an event was an official SCA event, this led to the ending of epee in Meridies.

So IMHO Godwine is an A*&hat and September can't get here soon enough. I wish to heaven that this reign had never occured.

Jean-Michel

William of Otterton · Post by **William of Otterton** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:54 pm

As a fairly new fencer, but very long time member of the SCA, I find some of the comments rather odd especially for the Crown of any Kingdom.

To say that basic fencing appears "unsafe", but then apparently entertain the notion of Cut and Thrust or Side Sword is simply weird. That's like saying you don't think sword and board is safe, but you fully support massed polearms and spears.

As a fencer (and in Ealdormere, it's only rapier - no epee or anything else), I really don't want to go down the path of the percussive cuts that CnT brings with it. It's a heavier version of "heavy" fencing (rapier) with a bit more banging and hitting which personally I'm not keen on (due to my need to protect my hands as both a photographer and artisan not out anything else). It was fun to watch when the KRM sponsored an event to show CnT off, but it's just not for me right now.

If you end up on the Throne and don't like something.. that's fine. But to try basically tell the populace that "well, your part of the hobby sucks and you can't do it" is simply assinine.

GdS

Oswyn_de_Wulferton · Post by **Oswyn_de_Wulferton** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:58 pm

Sorry Jean-Michael, I was going off of what I heard from fencers who were directly there (household incident, but not in said household). Apparantly, they were able to reconcile but not the rapier community as a whole. Apologies for passing on any other misinformation.

Josh W · Post by **Josh W** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:22 pm

I wonder if this Godwine fellow associates with a certain Paul Byers of Fayetteville, Arkansas...

Just speculation here, but do you suppose his opposition to fencing is rooted in an "early period vs. late period" mentality? Clearly, he is doing a much earlier portrayal in the SCA, and rapier fighting is a very late thing.

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:53 pm

All that should be irrelevant.

The whopping great tool doesn't OWN the SCA, or even Meridies.

Yes, the correct answer is "Yes, Your Majesty." That doesn't, however, preclude one from concluding that the king is an ass, and six months can't end quickly enough.

Effingham

co10Broek · Post by **co10Broek** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:55 pm

ust speculation here, but do you suppose his opposition to fencing is rooted in an "early period vs. late period" mentality? Clearly, he is doing a much earlier portrayal in the SCA, and rapier fighting is a very late thing.

I don't really see reason to believe this. I think the man has less tact than a tank. He seems to have a remarkable ability to piss people off. I mean just about everybody. I've had knights, pelicans, laurels and lots of "non-peers" pull me aside and tell me that they wish his reign was over. And this type of stuff started before he was king.
From what I've seen and heard he really needs to read How to win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. Though I think that may be a little beyond him, perhaps he should start with The Complete Idiots Guide to Tact (hmm now there's a book that needs writing).

Jean-Michel

Marvin · Post by **Marvin** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:07 pm

Blackoak wrote:I'll second that!

Uric

Damn. Uric beat me to it. Glad this little piece of drama is happening in a kingdom far, far, away...

Josh Warren wrote:I wonder if this Godwine fellow associates with a certain Paul Byers of Fayetteville, Arkansas...

Highly unlikely. I know them both and I doubt they would seek out each other's company...

MalcolmdeMoffat · Post by **MalcolmdeMoffat** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:17 pm

From that King wrote and was kndly posted here for our arm-chair disection, He doesn't say that fencing can't go on during his reign but that he doesn't like it, and wont sponsor it. To me this says, No event that the royalty is at will have fencing. This is not to say that the sub groups can't have fensing, also Imagine if the Prince & Princess Liked fencing

Wouldn't that be intresting in the Royal House of Merdies ?

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:30 pm

It's the water in Griffin (,ga). I know... I went to school there. everyone on city water was just different than those of us on well water...

-+G