Duke Logan said:
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if there is anyone out there that has never boxed and has a friend that has never boxed that would like to help me end the silly debate over book fighting vs actual fighting let me know. ii have five or six books on boxing that talk, in great detail, about body position, power generation, blocking, footwork, etc. i would be happy to loan them all to two willing guys to read all they want. then lets watch them try to box. until and unless they actually take what they learn and practice it full on they will never show any promise as fighters.
With respect, the analogy doesn't quite hold: It would be better to take two guys (twins preferably, with similar body structure), who have never fought before. One of them spars every day with no teacher. The other one spars everyday with no teacher, but is given a book on boxing techniques. After a year, pit them together. In that case, the guy with the book has better (although not certain) odds.
Of course, now that the SCA is old enough, it is often the case that the people who are only sparring do have teachers, but they were teachers who had taught themselves, or who had teachers who at some point taught themselves. Or, another option, they had teachers who didn't know how to box, but had judo experience. Then it gets tricky, and the winner is often determined by combat model that was used during training.
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i respect the art of wma from all that ive seen. the silly blow-hards that participate in it and call down sca sport combat as cheesy and unrealistic should simply stay away from the sca. i can tell you that its pretty realistic when you get some of your shit broken in our sport. pretty real combat if you ask me. cheesy? not any more than guys going over pre-determined dance moves based on a few pages in an instructural manual. they both have plenty to make fun of but whats the point?
If you will forgive the presumption, if I understand correctly, it is the attitude of some of the WMAers rather than the study itself that annoys you? Actually that is pretty understandable: I spend some time on Sword Forum. There are some very knowledgable and skilled people there, but there is also a lot of martial arts "my kung fu is strong; yours is weak" going on. The WMAer snears at the SCAer, and the SCAer gets offended and snears back: cycle continues ad nauseum.
I think that is a shame. The heavy fighters may be working with a flawed combat model -- hell, who isn't -- but as many have already pointed out, they have tons of practical experience. Last year at Pennsic, I had the honor of taking a class with Duke Paul. The friend who had arranged it seemed apologetic: He knows I am very much interested in authentic techniques. I was surprised. From what I have read, Duke Paul has forgotten more about body mechanics and power generation than I have ever known. No his specific technique might not help with the kind of fighting, but it often pointed out gaps in the studies that I have missed. In the class, I just shut off my brain -- depressingly easy -- and soaked in the information.
Now, when I study the Lichtenhaer or Meyer, I can say to myself, hmm: Duke Paul did this with his foot placement, but Meyer did this. Why? By spending time with someone with such knowledge and experience, I learned what questions I should ask when I studied WMA.
Conversely, I feel the german swordwork has improved my fighting skills. Techniques that seemed nuts when I learned them now come naturally, and are very effective in a fight. God knows I was surprised when I realized how useful zwerkhau (a horizontal false edge stike that also keeps you safe if you are out-timed) could be.
I guess my point is this: I love WMA, but I have yet to be convinced that their combat models for practice provides a suitably realistic means of practicing techniques (although some of the armoured fights come close, if they use unarmoured techniques). If nothing else, I have yet to see them used it for melees. Could be wrong, though. I love SCA heavy -- it is also a flawed combat model (again, they all are) -- but I get depressed when fighters snear at authentic, documentable, and researched techniques just because they are put off by the researchers. Worse, some fighters snear -- and I am not talking about anyone here that I know of -- because they can't be bothered to make the effort to study. There is just so much to learn if we can keep an open mind.
ooooooooooo
