What is the SCA's feelings on collars?

MJBlazek · Post by **MJBlazek** » Tue Aug 15, 2006 3:46 pm

A collar such as this one...

Showing the Lancaster S...

Would somethign like this constitute as a knights chain?

TakedaSanjuichiro · Post by **TakedaSanjuichiro** » Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:03 pm

MJBlazek wrote:(what is the SCA's feelings on collars)... such as this one.

Would somethign like this constitute as a knights chain?

I think if varies greatly by kingdom, area, and who you ask.

I know one kingdom specifically restricts those kind of chains to people in certain offices (Calontir?) but others like Atlantia it is prefactly acceptable. Check your local suptuary laws (if any).

Now as far as the corpora is concerned (regalia) a chivalric chain of fealty (knight's chain) is any unadorned, open linked chain. This would not qualify as such. I know some knights wear medalions on their chains, some give out silver chains to their squires (gold supposedly being reserved for knights) And AnTir has an award of an Iron Chain (sorta like a heroisim medal, but people do not talk about the exact details but that is another story) that has caused some controversy with chiv in the West Kingdom... (also another story)

Anyhow, in short it is not a chain, it is a placket necklace/collar and thus free of the knight's regailia restriction, though other rules may apply by your kingdom.

I know others might disagree with me, but personally I feel if you are at least a Lord/Lady (AoA or better) go for it, they were popular for part of period among the nobility.

-Takeda

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:13 pm

It's risky. There's always someone ready and willing to be offended. But it should be done anyway.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

MJBlazek · Post by **MJBlazek** » Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:20 pm

Jehan de Pelham wrote:It's risky. There's always someone ready and willing to be offended. But it should be done anyway.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

Well thats sort of my thought....they were a popular fashion of the time

Gethin · Post by **Gethin** » Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:22 pm

By Corpora-no.
But, by kingdom it would depend. More than likely it would be used as a collar of estate, for example.
Check your kingdom sumptuary laws.

T. Finkas · Post by **T. Finkas** » Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:39 pm

I wore an elaborate collar to an SCA medieval banquet once...and several SCA knights took me to task for it thinking I was infringing on their right to wear a gold chain. They asked me what right I had to wear it and I said "I am the Mayor of London". They gave me a long look of consideration and decided they liked it ---and my chutzpah--- and it was cool. Funny, eh?

Cheers,
Tim

TakedaSanjuichiro · Post by **TakedaSanjuichiro** » Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:43 pm

T. Finkas wrote:...I said "I am the Mayor of London". They gave me a long look of consideration and decided they liked it ---and my chutzpah--- and it was cool.

Brilliant!

-Takeda

co10Broek · Post by **co10Broek** » Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:25 pm

Gethin wrote:

By Corpora-no.

Just out of curiosity, could you tell me where in Corpora you find this? If I understand correctly Kingdom law is under Corpora, so if Copora forbids the use of the collar, then no kingdom can allow it. I do not believe Corpora says anything about collars (unadorned chains are not collars). I know in Meridies there are collars which are allowed. I would suggest the you look for sumptuary laws in your kingdom.

Jean-Michel

Gethin · Post by **Gethin** » Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:50 pm

co10Broek wrote:Gethin wrote:
By Corpora-no.

Just out of curiosity, could you tell me where in Corpora you find this? If I understand correctly Kingdom law is under Corpora, so if Copora forbids the use of the collar, then no kingdom can allow it. I do not believe Corpora says anything about collars (unadorned chains are not collars). I know in Meridies there are collars which are allowed. I would suggest the you look for sumptuary laws in your kingdom.

Jean-Michel

Jean-Michel,
The question was "Would somethign like this constitute as a knights chain?"
My answer to this question was "By Corpora-no."
I continue with "But, by kingdom it would depend. More than likely it would be used as a collar of estate, for example. Check your kingdom sumptuary laws."
Which is what you said, with a different wording.
I am unsure where the confusion came from, but we are in agreement.

Josh W · Post by **Josh W** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 4:00 am

Since Corpora states that unadorned chains are reserved for knights, I see no problem with it. The rule implies that adorned chains are fair game for anyone to wear. The Lancastrian chain seems pretty darn adorned to me.

Ceddie · Post by **Ceddie** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 6:55 am

I remember some places reserving collars for â€œGrant or higherâ€

co10Broek · Post by **co10Broek** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:20 am

Gethin,
The brevity of your answer and the intervening replies caused me to misread your answer. Thank you for the clarification.

Jean-Michel

Sieg · Post by **Sieg** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:10 pm

I would follow alot of the advice on the thread so far.

Check with your kingdom rules.

I know here in Artemisia. we have a broad segment of rules concerning "chains" and "collars" such as this. Usually being it will depend on types of offices held and level of award you have. If you do your research you can get away with it rather easy. It is just a good idea to make sure that you have not put something in it that we try to reserve for specific offices.

We are a pretty laid back kingdom and like people to become more authentic. Just make sure you don't stomp on some of the traditions.

that collar looks really nice. Check with the kingdom and make sure nothing conflicts. and go for it.

Sieg

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:14 pm

People are hinting at this, but let's also say it explicitly: in colors other than gold (except perhaps as golden accents) it's likely to be just fine with everyone in the SCA. So if it's primarily colored enamel, or much bejeweled, you're likely not only swanky, but very legal too.

MJBlazek · Post by **MJBlazek** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:03 pm

Here is the one I am actually thinking of getting.
http://www.pewterreplicas.com/detail.as ... encies=GBP

Its a replica from the portrait of Richard the Good,

It is the sign of an order he started, the Order of the Golden Fleece, but i am thinking that I could just take the golden fleece part off or it and still have a pretty snazzy collar.

or perhaps this one
http://www.pewterreplicas.com/detail.as ... encies=GBP

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:13 pm

I think either one of those would be fine, both having adornment both in the cast pieces AND in hanging medalions.

I believe the spirit of the rule leans more towards a plain "gold" open link un-adorned chain. Not historical collars of state.

Oh, and to my knowledge Calontir does not reserve collars of state to certain people.

Ceddie · Post by **Ceddie** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:21 pm

http://www.pewterreplicas.com/detail.as ... encies=GBP

Is the same one my wife wears and has no problems at all.

you might want to give a look at

http://www.fetteredcockpewters.com/page_collars.htm

Karen Larsdatter · Post by **Karen Larsdatter** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 10:19 pm

This year at Pennsic, I got myself a similar sorta lady's collar-of-estate with alternating Pelican links and Laurel links from Billy & Charlie; they also have links cast as roses, jewelled links, and links shaped like the letters A, M, or S. I'd had it made to be fairly short, since a lot of the women's collars & similar necklaces that turns up in 15th century iconography (like Memling's portraits of Maria Portinari and Elizabeth Donne, effigy of Joan of Navarre's funeral effigy, or this gallery from the Monumental Brass Society) seem to just rest on the collarbone, instead of going all the way across the shoulders like men's livery collars & chains of estate tend to. I sure think it looks pretty keen.

But anyway ... back on-topic (rather than the Pennsic Shopping Report) ... I'd say that a collar of S's really says more about your persona (in terms of time period and supporting the Lancastrians and all) rather than implying SCA knighthood.

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 11:03 pm

Meridies limits collars of estate to GOA holders or above. (and GOA folks have to use unical 'M' 's)

-+G

Charlotte J · Post by **Charlotte J** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 8:39 am

Ach, why would you want to go about supporting Lancaster, anyway? :wink:

Fire Stryker · Post by **Fire Stryker** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 8:54 am

MJBlazek wrote:Here is the one I am actually thinking of getting.
http://www.pewterreplicas.com/detail.as ... encies=GBP

Its a replica from the portrait of Richard the Good,

It is the sign of an order he started, the Order of the Golden Fleece, but i am thinking that I could just take the golden fleece part off or it and still have a pretty snazzy collar.

or perhaps this one
http://www.pewterreplicas.com/detail.as ... encies=GBP

Just a little clarity from a resident Burgundian re-enactor.

It wasn't started by RICHARD the Good , it was started by PHILIP the Good, duke of Burgundy in the 1430s.

I would definitely take the fleece off. This is not a livery collar it is a collar for an existing Order of Knighthood. The Order of the Golden Fleece is still an active Order in Austria and Spain.

Just thought you should know.

And I agree, its very snazzy with it's flints and steels.

Jenn

Haldan · Post by **Haldan** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:31 am

Rev. George wrote:Meridies limits collars of estate to GOA holders or above. (and GOA folks have to use unical 'M' 's)

-+G

Ah Rev. I hate to disagree with you but , well, I do. It's all in how you read the sumptuary laws http://www.meridies.org/seneschal/MKL_07102006.pdf (bottom of the document). There are certain collar things that are approved for only for Royal Peers (Duke/Duchess, Count/Countess, Vicount/Vicountess) and for those that have a GOA. There are no restrictions on other collars such as the one of S's mentioned before.

My 2 cents

Haldan (expatriate Meridian)

Karen Larsdatter · Post by **Karen Larsdatter** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 8:23 pm

Fire Stryker wrote:And I agree, its very snazzy with it's flints and steels.

Have you seen the insignia at the Schatzkammer? Oo shiny.

Fire Stryker · Post by **Fire Stryker** » Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:31 am

Oh yes

, I've seen a lot of various Collars for the Order of the Fleece.

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:21 pm

So were these collars specifically reserved for royalty and nobility? Or were they ever worn as mere jewelery?

Ie, could I wear one simply because I like the look or would such a collar have an historical status with it?

Karen Larsdatter · Post by **Karen Larsdatter** » Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:15 pm

InsaneIrish wrote:Could I wear one simply because I like the look or would such a collar have an historical status with it?

Most of them have some sort of historical context, yep. (The Wikipedia entry on livery collars has a pretty good summary of both the livery collars and the collars of orders of knighthood.)

Livery collars appear in portraits and memorial effigies & brasses of people who were not royalty; and there's certainly evidence that they were worn by non-noblemen. (Gruffy just called down the stairs -- we're going out to dinner in mere moments, so I'm trying to keep this short.) But people who were not members of one of an order of knighthood would not have worn the collar or any other regalia of that order, y'know?

So -- I would recommend looking at livery collars, rather than orders-of-knighthood collars. (In this kingdom, a lot of folks wear a livery collar that is a collar of A's; it echoes the historical Lancastrian collar of S's, but it uses the kingdom's initial.)

Okay. Gotta run, might be back to post more later ...

T. Finkas · Post by **T. Finkas** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 3:55 pm

MJBlazek wrote:Here is the one I am actually thinking of getting.
http://www.pewterreplicas.com/detail.as ... encies=GBP

Wearing that collar implies that you are a Knight of the order of the Golden Fleece...doesn't it?

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:00 pm

Yeah, that's why he's going to take the Golden Fleece off'n it.

Does the remainder of the collar imply anything?

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

Karen Larsdatter · Post by **Karen Larsdatter** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 7:03 pm

Jehan de Pelham wrote:Does the remainder of the collar imply anything?

That it's a chain of a member of the Order of the Golden Fleece without the pendant? :lol:

I would suspect that the implication would be a livery collar of someone in fealty to Burgundy; the fire-steel is a badge associated with the Dukes of Burgundy, and I think the flint issuing sparks is, as well.

Actually, there are historical examples that have the pendant and not the fire-steel & flint chain, like the portraits of Anthony of Burgundy or Philip II of Spain.

(The presence of a pendant on a collar in general doesn't necessarily turn it into the collar of an order of chivalry, FWIW; both Sir John Donne and his wife, Lady Elizabeth Donne, wear "Yorkist collars of gilt roses and suns from which hangs the Lion of March pendant of King Edward IV," for example.)

T. Finkas · Post by **T. Finkas** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:37 pm

Jehan de Pelham wrote:Yeah, that's why he's going to take the Golden Fleece off'n it.

Does the remainder of the collar imply anything?

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

I agree. I have never seen any evidence of that collar being used without the "Fleece" pendant. You do see the "Fleece" pendant being worn on a ribbon occasionally, instead of the collar. If anybody has any evidence to the contrary I would be very interested in learning more!

BTW: Here's one I sculpted a few years ago (see attachment).

Fire Stryker · Post by **Fire Stryker** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:25 am

The collar and the fleece are supposed to be inseperable according to the Order's Regulations.

Though Charles and Antoine seem to be "bending" the rules a bit. I've not seen any other portrait of a knight of the Fleece sans collar.

Karen Larsdatter · Post by **Karen Larsdatter** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:24 am

Fire Stryker wrote:The collar and the fleece are supposed to be inseperable according to the Order's Regulations.

Though Charles and Antoine seem to be "bending" the rules a bit. I've not seen any other portrait of a knight of the Fleece sans collar.

Just doing some quick looky-loos in additional portraits.
Chain + Fleece: Philip the Good, Anthony of Burgundy, Baudouin de Lannoy, Philip the Fair, Engelbrecht II, Heinrich III, Charles V, Charles V, Charles V,
Fleece - Chain: Charles the Bold, and quite a lot of the later portraits here, including another one of Philip II and the portraits of Charles V by Seisenegger and Titian.

(Had also run across some 17th-19th century examples lacking the chain as well as some 20th century examples.)

MJBlazek · Post by **MJBlazek** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:26 pm

Well, the whole idea for it was to show that I was in service to Bergundy.

Thanks all for all the helo too!

Fire Stryker · Post by **Fire Stryker** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:57 pm

Should have qualified that statement with "a 15th century Knight of the Order".

I'm not sure what the solution is other than maybe a decorative collar with a flint and steel hanging from it instead of one made of steels and striker.

What is the SCA's feelings on collars?

What is the SCA's feelings on collars?

Re: What is the SCA's feelings on collars?