A 14th century tourney

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:11 pm

perforated visor??

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 6:47 pm

What should be used as the documentation illustration for the 14th Century Tournament?

Can we lock down a series of illustrations and an exact date?

I can't see us keeping up ultra-high authencity for more than an hour. We are all creatures of the 21st Century after all.

We could set a clock (historically correct?) and maintain the illusion for one perfect hour. Eventually everyone will break down, but if we have a time limit they'll hold out until time is called.

Maybe we could call it the Golden Hour Tournament?

As a video-phile, I could set up my video camera to shoot automatically, hidden in the top of a tree or obscured somehow. You'll want to see this later, and I just need a space a quarter would fit in to make this work.

I can be the jester if you wish. I juggle, and my kit is OK I think...but that's the reason we'd need some documentation basis for everything.

Eamonn MacCampbell · Post by **Eamonn MacCampbell** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 6:49 pm

Although I am not SCA, I have been chatting to a few here about being able to attend and fight next year. This tourney would be fantastic as this is my timeframe.

I would be willing to help out anyways I could for anyone who could use me, ifn I don't get authorized to fight. I still intend to come just because.

Hell the gate gaurd idea is awesome :lol:

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:01 pm

Setting is paramount. Need a place where the vehicles are not visible.

Gethin · Post by **Gethin** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:03 pm

A sugestion as far as food and drink. Why not have a period potluck? Everyone bring a documentable dish and/or beverage that will serve 10(?)
people. The numbers may need to be adjusted, dependant estimated attendance.
As far as attendent to the combatants, this could be a wonderful opportunity to involve students (tweens, teens, college students). Perhaps a new outfit in exchange for service?
Finally, how restrictive will the rules be? Period fabric, no obvious modern items? Will you allow corrective lenses, contacts or other modern corrective devices?

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:31 am

The cars get to me

Espically when they sit in peoples camps all week (Not in Pentamere's though, I love camping with them)

As for food, in how a man shall be armed it goes into the food a knight should bring to the field

"What an Appellant shall bring to the field

A tent must be put in the field
Also a chair
Also a basin
Also five loaves of bread*
Also a gallon of wine*
Also a "messe" of meat or fish*
Also a board and a pair of trestles to sit his meat and drink on
Also a broad cloth
Also a knife to cut the meat
Also a cup to drink from
Also a glass with drink made
Also a dozen tresses of arming points
Also a hammer and pincers and a bichorn
Also a dozen arming nails (rivets)
Also a spear, long sword, short sword and dagger
Also a kerchief to [hele] the visor of his bascinet
Also a pennant to bear in his hand during his avowing"

http://www.chronique.com/Library/Armour/armyd1.htm

Cunian · Post by **Cunian** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:41 am

The hayfield past the B blocks belongs to the neighbors. Someone was out a few times there checking things. Didn't seem hostile, but happy that there was recognition of the boundary.

What about the park area down the hill from Midrealm Royal. The one that was the main battlefield way back, and Enchanted Ground more recently. It's both scenic and central, and there is some (SCA) historical appropriateness.

Gilebert · Post by **Gilebert** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 8:14 am

I have a 'trestle' table that is very transportable.

It is 30 inches by 60 inches.

I will get a picture or two of it and post it to see if that type would be suitable for use. If so, I have plans to make several anyway.. so what would be a few more.

Also, if they are liked, they could be used as gifts/prizes at the end of the day.

SirAngus · Post by **SirAngus** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:32 am

I'm not sure if fighting is allowed anyplace but the woods area and the main battlefield... This is something to check into...

Gilebert - That is a generous offer and it is exactly statepents like that, that will make this work!

Ok, since no one is ponying up webhosting or building, I'll do it on my page when I get back from Scandinavia in mid september. Warning though, I am not a web developer so anything I make will be useful but not very slick looking.

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:34 am

I can help on the layout end of a web site but not until late October.

Gilebert · Post by **Gilebert** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:51 am

SirAngus wrote:I'm not sure if fighting is allowed anyplace but the woods area and the main battlefield... This is something to check into...

As I understand the Pennsic rules... fighting is allowed only in the wodds and on the main battlefield. Now, as we are looking to do this, we may be able to get a dispensation for another area... as long as we make sure that we have the appropriate staff to do the necessary things... set-up, tear-down, water, medical, etc...

SirAngus wrote:Gilebert - That is a generous offer and it is exactly statepents like that, that will make this work!

I like to make things... and these would be for a good thing.

SirAngus wrote:Ok, since no one is ponying up webhosting or building, I'll do it on my page when I get back from Scandinavia in mid september. Warning though, I am not a web developer so anything I make will be useful but not very slick looking.

Sorry..... I forgot to mention... I run a small web hosting service... I can provide space for this...

SirAngus · Post by **SirAngus** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:02 pm

So how stringent are we going to be for armour standards?

I think if we decide what exactly it is we are trying to do, it may help us.

If we do a behourd, are we allowing couirboli and bargrills?
If we are doing a foot combat, do we allow great helms and other jousting equipment?

Where do we draw the line? No exposed plastic? Stainless, titanium and aluminum.... Yes or no?

Any thoughts?

SirAngus · Post by **SirAngus** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:10 pm

Lets come up with a cool name for this tourney.... Then we can hopefully register it as a domain name... The Grande Tourney? The Tournament of the Garden of Eden? ( I see what we are doing as trying to create a perfect place... Eden.. ) That could also give us a theme for the tourney...

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:11 pm

I'd go. And I know a few hard core guys in my house that would as well.

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:20 pm

Hmmm

No plastic for sure

Ummmmm no basket hilts

perhaps provide documentation for rigs? I still have mine from Warrior of History.

no visibly modern shoes (tennis shoes, combat boots ect)

no sweat pants jeans or unperiod clothes.

Name a name.....hummmmmm

Tourney of the Golden Rope?
Tourney is the wrong word for this.. it's more than a tourney

Eneterprise of the Golden rope?

Gilded cord? what is that in latin?

Wepons limited to the "knightly wepons" in such works as Lull and Decharney.

SirAngus · Post by **SirAngus** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:23 pm

hmmm... Golden rope.....

We could have a giant golden rope all around the tourney... Everything in the rope would have to be 14th century.

I'm all for making people have an accurate 14th cent. soft kit under thier armour. Chausses, braes, turnshoes, etc...

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:35 pm

The question of time frame comes to mind again, 1340s armor is much different than say the armor of the 1370s up.

On materials I say include stainless because so many people have at least one stainless part in their armor even among the high end guys. For me plastic or aluminum is fine if it is hidden and shaped well; for example a nice CoP with plastic plates with a leather shell. Also if the person has plastic body armor under a proper cote armor I would not complain.

I think it would be neat to require braies, hosen, and period, or period look like Revival, shoes. So many guys will get nice armor but still wear silly pants under it because they don't think hosen are manly, real medieval men wore hose!

As part of the web page I would be willing to do illustrations of a man from different decades in matching armor and clothing. I could do that over the winter.

SirAngus · Post by **SirAngus** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:15 pm

No hosen = no fighten

I think we should shoot for a time around 1390. Thats when most of the body was finally covered in plate and I think that is also the time most people think of with 14th century. I say we could allow kits from 1350 to 1400... Now I know that that is a huge time for armour, but I would be more willing to to meet a poor hedgeknight with proper kit than a duke in hidden plastic...

I'm not a fan of hidden plastic. Perhaps if we did allow a leather covered platic corizina, it would only count as couirboli, but it would have to look like armour. I still am against a plastic body harness covered by a jupon. I would count that as being unarmoured and no knight would fight unarmoured at a tourney. Remember, this would be a place to strut around in your finest stuff! Ladies will appreciate the fancy shmansy and distain the old and worn out.

See my idea is that if you are wearing leather armour..... Anywhere... you are armed for a behourd and therefore, may only fight the behourd. The greater honors and gifts go to those fighting with weapons of war...

I have no great need of having 100 half assed 14th century kits at this tourney. I'd rather have 8 nearly perfect kits instead.... That to me would be a much more enjoyable experience!

Gilebert · Post by **Gilebert** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 8:24 pm

My Lady has suggested that she would be willing to d the Scroll for this event.

She would of course like to discuss the needs/wants for the Scroll with those who are delegated to be in charge of this 'event'.

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 8:34 pm

"We could have a giant golden rope all around the tourney... Everything in the rope would have to be 14th century."

Ya read my mind, maybe a big golden chain? Like brass decorator chain from the hardware store. Put it on white posts, gold chain on white immediately makes SCA folks think Knight.

I'm all for making people have an accurate 14th cent. soft kit under thier armour. Chausses, braes, turnshoes, etc... "

My though exactaly

I agree with no hose no fight. Turnshoes or hobnail shoes (HE's Revivals, Dru's, Plantagenate, Ect ect ect) NOOOOO modern style shoes cowboy boots combat boots harness botts ect ect.

I'd disallow all plastic. If you allow the loophole then you will have people trying to skirt in.

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 8:42 pm

I really like where this is going.

SirAngus · Post by **SirAngus** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:51 pm

Well, the cant be any skirting in because everyone has to be preapproved by a panel of judges.

We just have to decide if we allow couirboli or not. If we do, then I might be convinced to allow really good looking, leather or canvas covered plastic in..... Really good looking... Really!

Thats awsome about the scroll! As we get the details, I can send them over to her. We just need the details first!

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 12:29 am

I didn't say they'd be sucessful i said they'd _try_ and skirt it.

But if the majority of the folks out there wanna allow. covered plastic with the right lines. IE i'd have to cut it open to tell it's plastic, i'll go with the majority.

Does anyone have a stage or a raised viewing box, a place we could have minstrels play as we fought and between bouts? If not, anyone know how to build one that could be transported?

Also I'm thinking having actual stands for the populace to watsch from.

When i was in highschool we had a set of wooden scaffolds with seats on em for outside drama stuff. I think we could build a set that would break down and would look good, i think it would add to the feel of it being "real" to have structures like that. Not huge, 2 or 3 levels at most . But i think it would give it the feel of a "permenant" list field. Give it a more tactile reality.

Now i'm just thinking out loud.

OH and weapons racks, people should try and get racks for their stuff. It looks more "professional" to have the wepons on a rack as opposed to on the ground.

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:59 am

Sir Angus, all, if you want a set of hardcore rules I have written a set of hardcore rules for Crossroads in Time. Given a year to prepare, a lot of people could make it so.

If it is deemed necessary to relax it a bit, make it hidden plastic acceptable for coats of plates and corrazinas and leather covered cuisses and greaves and breastplates worn under lentners like Sir Johannes has. I don't think it's wise or feasible to attempt to disallow craftily hidden plastic for an SCA event.

Some excerpts of the standards which I wrote are as follows, with modifications:

Armor: Armor shall be constructed of steel (mild, spring, or stainless), leather, and natural-fiber fabric and worn by persons engaged in portrayals of military persons from the era from 1350 to 1400 in the fashion of any culture of Europe west of and including the area of modern Moscow and north of the Mediterranean Sea. Armor shall be worn as a coherent and complete head to toe expression of military dress in a specific era without admixture of armor components of different eras. Armor modifications or construction elements that do not adhere to medieval models or design principles known from examples of surviving armor are not acceptable. Mail may be of butted, welded, or riveted construction.

Participants must wear full harness to Deeds of Arms. The armor must be actual armor. There isn't much need to go further, especially among those who understand living history or high fidelity re-enactment. I could define material specifications all day long and someone would find a backdoor--as I will here demonstrate by attempting to provide a road that those who get it will follow to its logical conclusion:

i. All harness worn must provide full body, head, and limb coverage to include shins and hands appropriate to the era of harness depicted and replicate or approximate a harness depicted in iconography (brasses, illustrations, effigies, statuary, or other art). Persons bringing out of the ordinary harness should bring a printed copy of the iconography justifying it for the education of all present. Especial attention shall be paid to joint, neck, throat, head, and spine protection.

ii. Steel plate (stainless, mild, or spring), steel mail (stainless, mild, or spring--butted, welded or riveted are acceptable), steel splinted leather defenses, textile armors (cotton, fustian, linen, hemp, or silk), brass, bronze, soft or hardened leather are acceptable materials.

iii. The addition of modern or ahistorical protective gear beneath layers of accurately depicted foundation garments or completely hidden by harness is optional at the wearer's discretion (for example a body bracelet for protection of the kidneys and lower vertebrae worn under a breastplate).

iv. The absence of complete harness hidden by textile shells is not permitted; simulation of complete harness achieved by use of a textile shell or covering garment is not permitted. Use of purely ahistorical torso armor covered by textile shells is not permitted.

v. Modifications of medieval harness made to suit the safety conventions of medieval combat organizations is unauthorized: no helmet bargrills, no basket hilts on swords, no bar grilled or solid construction baskets on shields. All safety requirements shall be met by faithful kit, rather than workarounds.

vi. Armor construction techniques which are standard modern practice are acceptable: welded helmet construction, welded cop and poleyn construction, machine riveted mail, machine sewing, are acceptable.

vii. No aluminum, plastic, or titanium shields. No plastic, rubber, or other modern shield edging. Shields constructed of plywood are acceptable provided the nature of the material is concealed by leather, cloth, or paint.

viii. Footwear of modern appearance is prohibited. Welt soles are permissible, provided the footwear presents the approximation of medieval footwear existing from 1300AD to 1500AD--Revival Clothing's offerings are an example of this kind of footgear. Modern footgear disguised to look like medieval footgear--specifically, modern cleats, boots or athletic shoes covered with leather or fabric sheaths to conceal their nature are prohibited.

Disclaimer specific to this proposed event: No guidelines here shall be construed as permitting variance from the SCA minimums for heavy weapons combat. The Rules of the Lists for the locality in which the proposed event apply and are in full force and effect.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

Tailoress · Post by **Tailoress** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 6:36 am

SirAngus wrote:Lets come up with a cool name for this tourney.... Then we can hopefully register it as a domain name... The Grande Tourney? The Tournament of the Garden of Eden? ( I see what we are doing as trying to create a perfect place... Eden.. ) That could also give us a theme for the tourney...

I've always wanted to name a deed of arms after the Feast of the Swan, myself... just because the name and events surrounding it are fascinating, but it's probably historically a little earlier than most folks want to go (1306).

http://edwardthesecond.blogspot.com/200 ... -1306.html

-Tasha

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 8:06 am

A series of illustrations from that time (+ or - 5 years or so) would be great for guideance on this.

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:55 am

Ok I lied to myself about when I would make an interface design. Ok look at this:

http://home.armourarchive.org/members/f ... R/test.htm

I went with the name Murdock made up and created some posible links, that can change I just wanted something to look at and get an idea from. What do you guys think? Sir Angus it is your idea how do you like it?

Keg · Post by **Keg** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 12:14 pm

I think it looks very good

Shame I cant get over to Pennsic to take part.

*curses intercontinental distance and airfare cost*

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 12:21 pm

DUUUUDDdeeeee thats sweet.

Who's hat is that? Nice crest.

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 12:56 pm

Sweet!

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:16 pm

Nothing but the tape, dudes! We are going to do it!
I'm going to put off getting a new bike this year to help make it happen.

Johannes · Post by **Johannes** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:23 pm

I just got off the phone with Jean Paul.

If people are willing, He and I would gladly do the hosting and maintenance for a site that might also be able to include the Combat of the 30. I have felt like something of the sort was necessary for a while. If I use my host we can set up a bulletin board and some other things as well.

If it doesn't make tto many waves, we can get started later today. James B's interface design looks awesome,

Johannes · Post by **Johannes** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:34 pm

As the 30 and the other deeds of arms have become a saving grace for me, I just purchased deedsofarms.com, and will offer it as a place for this to go at my expense.

I just checked, it has gone through, and if it's a go I'll point it to its own web space.

:oops:

If I am moving too fast, tell me to stop...

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:48 pm

Thanks for the comments guys. Murdock that is an image of one of the reenacters at the Denmark Medieval Museum, I do not have a modern free SCA guy image handy to use. The manuscript image is from the Roman du Roy Meliadus de Leonnoys circa 1360; I snagged it from the online British Library.

Sir Johannes I could help with an interface for the 30 and a main Deeds of Arms website too.

More ideas for the Enterprise of the Golden Rope. Seperate people watching by class of thier kit, bog tunics and Herjolfsne gowns on the "poor" side and pourpoints and fitted womens gowns on the "rich" side. All the "poor" people should be forced to stand but if we can pull it off a ladies gallery on the rich side would be cool. We could even have refreshments and servers with period table wear.

Also ban SCA only jewelry like ring belts, office belts (lural and pelican), corrnets, and all knight and squire belts must be of a correct design (color is meaningless back then, fittings are the key).

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 3:00 pm

James, if you need an image, there are plenty of people here who will donate a likeness, if I am not sore mistaken.

Sir Johannes, PM on the way.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org