offensive shield work?

[rob(in)]

now, i do SCA in an area that doesn't allow shield/body contact. i know Ansteorra allows 'non-agressive' shield/body contact, as i've had fun with their guys using the shield to lever my arms and press me off balance. i thought it was great. Duke Keen (sp?) really worked me over until i figured out how to play 'his way'.

now, what i'd like to know is: what would we need to do w/ SCA fight/shield regs to allow using the shield as a weapon? also looking for input from other groups that do allow this.

obviously the biggest component is control, like every other aspect of our fighting. the only equipment issue i see is modifying the shield edge to at least 1.25" so as not to enter the helmet. perhaps we shouldn't call a shield bash 'good' but should be able to use it to set up a weapon shot or soften someone's defense.

other thoughts/concerns?

[Gwydion Caithnes]

My thoughts: there is a huge difference between crashing into a melee line with your shield and "using your shield as a weapon." The former, by definition, almost requires some incidental body contact.

The latter, however, might simply be too uncontrollable for the purposes of SCA combat. I say that because of the wide variation in shield sizes, weights, materials, etc. You'd end up needing a whole new set of standards for shields that could be safely used as such.

[rob(in)]

My thoughts: there is a huge difference between crashing into a melee line with your shield and "using your shield as a weapon." The former, by definition, almost requires some incidental body contact.

normally, with the 'three step charge' rule that i grew up with, i'd agree. after fighting at Pennsic this year, with full running charges, the lines were blurred. i encountered one group that used this to their advantage: engaging a fighter, then having one of theirs bumrush the opponent. twice i was thrown back about six feet through the air.

that's what started my train of thought. seems like things are opening up. receiving a full running charge w/ a 250# opponent in full armor seems -more- dangerous to me than allowing punching with any shield under the current rules. we had a lot of 'why not?' discussions around the campfire.

[Palymar]

>>more- dangerous to me than allowing punching with any shield under the current rules. we had a lot of 'why not?' discussions around the campfire

Try it sometime in your own backyard and I bet most of you questions as to why we don't allow it will be answered.

[DELETEMYACCOUNT]

In our combat we punch with shields. With the edges and the faces, either way. In fact at one of our events I broke a one inch oak dowel rod I was using as a handle on a center boss round shield by punching Tamock in the face with the boss. He got up laughing, no harm done.
We dont count shield punches as kills any more than a punch or a kick is a kill. More of a set up move.
It's no big deal. Just another technique. Certainly nothing to fear.

[rob(in)]

>>more- dangerous to me than allowing punching with any shield under the current rules. we had a lot of 'why not?' discussions around the campfire

Try it sometime in your own backyard and I bet most of you questions as to why we don't allow it will be answered.

done it. again, it's about control. i want to beat my opponent, not break them. the only difference in a sanctioned SCA setting is that i have to drive -your- shield into your head instead of mine.

[rob(in)]

It's no big deal. Just another technique. Certainly nothing to fear.

agreed.

any modfications/agreements regarding shield edges?

[DELETEMYACCOUNT]

None whatsoever.
We make our shields pretty much like y'all do so we can use them at events like pennsic. We dont have problems from punches, grappling, kicks, shield punches, whatever. It's nowhere near as scary as a lot of SCA people would like you to think.

[rob(in)]

We dont have problems from punches, grappling, kicks, shield punches, whatever. It's nowhere near as scary as a lot of SCA people would like you to think.

i think eventually the SCA will adopt grappling, especially now with the push on historical combat and cut and thrust, but evolution is slow. personally i'd like to see fighting legged and armed go away and go to counted blows.

[carlyle]

i think eventually the SCA will adopt grappling ..., but evolution is slow. personally i'd like to see fighting legged and armed go away and go to counted blows.

These concepts are independent and do not necessarily depend one-upon-the-other. I disagree that the SCA will adopt full grappling, because our romantic ideal is wrapped up in armed combat -- the icon of the knight celebrating chivalry or defeating injustice through his skill with sword and spear. By contrast, moving away from "acted" blows is a huge step forward toward replacing "comic book" romanticism with an entire repertoire of additional techniques and scenarios that more closely reflect and mimic the idealized epics from which we draw much of our inspiration.

We dont count shield punches as kills any more than a punch or a kick is a kill. More of a set up move. It's no big deal. Just another technique. Certainly nothing to fear.

(I'm quoting this not to refute Animal, but because Robin expressed subsequent agreement)

What I don't understand is that, if it is not counted as a disabling move, then why do you want to use it? In this case, I am trying to draw a line between "enabling" techniques that lead to a "counted" blow, and simply upping the amperage because we can.

For example, I curently use my two swords to actively foul and oppose my opponents attacks, even to the point of pressing my blades against their body and limbs. I also believe that turn-about is fair play, and that for my opponent to actively manipluate me with their shield -- so long as they don't actually haul off and hit me hard with it -- is perfectly acceptable. Blasting me with the shield edge just because they can, however, is no different than greatweapons fighters intentionally throwing smashing blows into their opponents' defenses, or a fighter with a range advantage sniping from distance against an immobile opponent -- possibly legal, but graceless and without style (and, against better opponents, ultimately ineffective).

And while I realize this last presumes an aesthetic of fighting that I understand may not be shared by everyone, I think it is something about which we need to take very great care lest we slip and lose the hardfought advance of 40 years of progress to more madus, punch daggers, and "directed touch" face thrusts...

... or, in other words, doing something just because we can, and not because it is Right .

With respect,

Alfred of Carlyle

[DELETEMYACCOUNT]

Alfred I think it's because you and I view fighting entirely different. If I leg someone and step in with a kick it's not just to kick them. It's to put them off balance and distract their defense so I can kill them. If someone gets inside me I'll punch them. Not just because I can, but to gain room and distance so I can then kill them. if I punch someone with my shield it's because they're in too tight for a sword blow or kick. Just another technique is all. If you have other expectations from your fighting, perhaps some romantic ideal, then I'd say you wouldnt enjoy my kind of fight at all. you, and others that complain so hard about things like madus, shield punches, grappling, I just dont see what kind of fun you really have. But that's just my point of view.

[Palymar]

[quote="rob(in)
done it. again, it's about control. i want to beat my opponent, not break them. the only difference in a sanctioned SCA setting is that i have to drive -your- shield into your head instead of mine.[/quote]

I aggree completely. Which is specifically why I would not want to see this used by the general SCA fighting populace. I do not have a lot of faith in the base line skill of the "average SCA fighter".

Maybe 15% of SCA fighters could do this with the proper control.

[ChristianVE]

Agree with palymar completly
While discussing and developing these techniques is all well and good, I doubt the vast majority of fighters (many of whom rarely practice and only show up to large wars) could incorporate them safely. Perhaps in special tournaments grappling and aggressive shield to body contact has a place, but not on the warfield.

[Leo Medii]

It's nowhere near as scary as a lot of SCA people would like you to think.

Animal, trained and confident warriors who engage in combat as a way of life are fine with these things. However, the SCA is a LARGE pool of combat and it's rules to be blunt and honest are for what I call the "lowest common denominator" factor.
I've done period work with buckler that would make some SCA folks cry if struck with it. It's fun in it's own way, and in it's own place. Mainstream SCA combat is simply not, and may never be that place.
I love such combat, but it is not my place to force others from playing because I was gifted with stong Rus and Norman blood.

I have noticed as of the past five years that the folks who think this way are being given their own little playgrounds to play. And those who can't or don't want too don't have to. For now, that is fine for me, and fine for those who play the normal SCA game (which I also love dearly).

.02

[DELETEMYACCOUNT]

I remember when face thrusting was the huge boogey man and wasnt allowed at pennsic. People got all freaked out over that too, now it's the norm. Just sayin.

[Murdock]

"None whatsoever.
We make our shields pretty much like y'all do so we can use them at events like pennsic. We dont have problems from punches, grappling, kicks, shield punches, whatever. It's nowhere near as scary as a lot of SCA people would like you to think. "

Heck me Logan Silver Axe and Drachus did that...with rebeats and steel bucklers. Well till i broke my sword on Kevin's head.

It can be done easily and safely, but Palymar has a point, there are ALOT of bonheads in the SCA. The org is too big for that kinda fighting to be our default rules.

that being said i'm all for full charges, half swording, and the more realistic rubber polaxe heads.

I'm also in favor of getting rid of thrusting tips on single handed swords and allowing inlines on longswords.


I do however HATE unpadded pole arms.

My opinion counts for jack though.

[ChristianVE]

I'm also in favor of getting rid of thrusting tips on single handed swords and allowing inlines on longswords

what is this inlines on longswords?

[D. Sebastian]

inlines

Racassos?




The only time I've ever been hurt by an opponent was a shield edge strike to my grill. My neck still gets sore and that was over 2 years ago. He was excited. Just sayin.

[DELETEMYACCOUNT]

IMO the solution is better training not more rules.

[Joachim]

I'm also in favor of getting rid of thrusting tips on single handed swords and allowing inlines on longswords

what is this inlines on longswords?

I'm going to guess at low (or no) profile thrusting tips.

[Leo Medii]

IMO the solution is better training not more rules.

I totally agree. The problem is that some folks train a lot, and some folks train some, and some don't train at all. I've seen people fight three times a year, and some three times a week. It's so wide and varied that I think that full combat will never be possible in the SCA, and some people would be shut out of SCA combat by addition of some fighting techniques.
My lady is a fighter, and she loves SCA fighting (melee most). However, she would never last in some of the combat I've done. Every time I get excited about full contact, to the yeild, or heavier combat I think of making her sit on the sidelines. And I know many others would have to do that too if we added more serious and harder hitting techniques, or ones that require much practice and time for mastery.

Now you know why I love fighting the Chux!

[rob(in)]

i think the face-thrust analogy is dead on.

maybe it would go:

-make 'offensive shield' a weapons form
-require authorization
-see if it catches on

completely agree about the 'lowest common denominator'. we're set up so that we can field the most people w/ the least fuss, and all the problems that come with it.

[azrael]

None whatsoever.
We make our shields pretty much like y'all do so we can use them at events like pennsic. We dont have problems from punches, grappling, kicks, shield punches, whatever. It's nowhere near as scary as a lot of SCA people would like you to think.

Very true -- I've fought at a few Tuchux practices -- but MAN, is it ever disorienting the first time a guy drops his polearm and clocks you in the face with a steel gauntlet!

[Gwydion Caithnes]

i think the face-thrust analogy is dead on.

I wonder. I think I can do a lot more damage with a heavy war shield than I can with a little rattan stick, if I have a mind to.

Think of it this way: Assuming that your opponent is out of control, which would you rather be hit by? I'd take the stick, personally.

I'm not against grappeling at all. But "shields as weapons" gives me some pause.

So now I'm curious: How does one "count" the blow when the Tuchux drops his 'arm and clocks you in the head with his fist...?

[Baron Logan]

The SCA moving away from having bike tire sized shield rims is the big deterrent for offensive shield work from my perspective. You can punch me boss of a centergrip, but I’d rather not have someone taking boxer style jabs at me with the front corner of a Vitus constructed heater.

[Gwydion Caithnes]

Bike-tire, heater-hose, or what have you - my concern is not so much the "point" of the weapon, as is the "mass." A shield is simply a larger, heavier object to be hurling into one's opponent.

Again, I have nothing against weapon-fouling, pressing, grappling, or even charges (given or taken). But I just can't get the mental picture of guys swinging their shields into people, and the probable results thereof.

[Murdock]

what is this inlines on longswords?

In line thrusting tips aka low profile tips.

Used on like that for 2 years before anyone told me it was illegal. I guess they all just thought it was a single hander.

[DELETEMYACCOUNT]

"So now I'm curious: How does one "count" the blow when the Tuchux drops his 'arm and clocks you in the head with his fist...?"

Whatever effect the blow has on you is the effect it has on you. Unlike a blow from a 'pretend' weapon, it's a shot just like you woulda got back in the day. So if it doesnt phase you, it doesnt. Personally I have knocked dogs unconcious with a left hand on at least two occasions over the years.
But that's rare. Usually it's a shot thrown to gain time or distance. Just like a quick basket hilt to the chops, it's more of a clearing blow than anything.
Now, we sometimes take a shield punch as a good blow, surmising that even if it didnt cut you like a sword would, it might still break a neck or at least stun and disorient you long enough to disable you and end the fight.
If someone lands a good hard shield punch on me and it feels right I'll take it as a fight ending blow.

[Sir Wilhelm vonOstenbruke]

Anything that would force me to modify my shield to have larger than 1.25 inch edging I would be against. Right now I use a low profile, lightweight edging and I would very unhappy if I were forced to change it. I see no benefit to allowing aggressive shield work and would be opposed to it. I like to keep it nice and civil.

[Mord]

Hmmm...

Well, first there's the SCA rule against it. I believe that this rule is there because it was thought that a lot of past armors would of protected the wearing with shield punching. I also must admit that I don't like the idea of the possiblity of a shield's corner getting stuck where it shouldn't.

But OTOH I've been around long enough to be punched with a shield and even knocked down when someone charged into me. This usually happens in a melee--especially bridges or any fight where there's a limited front. It's not a lot of fun.

Mord.

[Gwydion Caithnes]

But OTOH I've been around long enough to be punched with a shield and even knocked down when someone charged into me. This usually happens in a melee--especially bridges or any fight where there's a limited front. It's not a lot of fun.

Exactly my point. And that's also to be distinguished from someone actually swinging the shield AT you in order to knock you down, etc. ("shield as a weapon").

Incidental contact in a melee situation is probably unavoidable. The other would be quite deliberate - a very different thing.

I don't care what's padding the thing: If someone heaves a shield at me with the intent to hit me with it, as opposed to ramming me or pushing through me during a charge, etc., it's much more likely to do damage. The kind of damage that the other SCA rules are designed to prevent.

Maybe I'm being a wimp, or showing my "advanced age," or whatever, but "shield as a weapon" just concerns me.

[Leo Medii]

My shield is a weapon that has stricter rules than the sword.

Plain and simple.

[Jean Paul de Sens]

IMO the solution is better training not more rules.

I agree. Perhaps the solution might be the creation of a separate fighting style under the SCA armoured umbrella.

JP

[audax]

I like the idea of moving to counted blows, even fighting to the yield. I'm also willing to fight the Tuchux on their terms, so maybe I'm a little crazy. I like a good hard fight, two warriors struggling for life and honor in the heat of battle, testing our strength against each other, pain, thirst, exhaustion, fear, not sniping at each other, while hiding behind oversized shields. (I'm from Ansteorra, where giant shields abound.)

Having said all that, I don't want to break anybody because who would I play with then? Perhaps a combination of higher armor standards and training to allow more advanced fighters to use things like shield punches, kicks, etc. In other words, if you want to fight using such methiods, you better be wearing armor that will protect from those methods, i.e. greaves to protect against kicks, a chinstrap/gorget arrangement that protects from shield punches, stuff like that. I do think that attacks to the joints should be illegal.

audax

(edited because I can't spell "shield")

[rob(in)]

I like the idea of moving to counted blows, even fighting to the yield. I'm also willing to fight the Tuchux on their terms, so maybe I'm a little crazy. I like a good hard fight, two warriors struggling for life and honor in the heat of battle, testing our strength against each other, pain, thirst, exhaustion, fear, not sniping at each other, while hiding behind oversized shields. (I'm from Ansteorra, where giant shields abound.)

ultimately, i'd like to see offensive shield work -and- a safe way to do destructable shields. i'm all for grappling, but that seems like a whole different mindset to tackle. offensive shielding is still in the real of 'using the tools we already have'.