Metal treatment options in the late 14th century...

[Kenwrec Wulfe]

Timeframe: 1390 - 1405
Location: Saxony, Bavaria and surrounding provinces.
Social Status: Non-Royal Nobility

Question: In regards to armour standards and most commonly used methods - What would be used to color, cover, alter the steel to both protect against the elements (i.e. - rust) and to decorate the metal. I am not including the used of rolling, decorative edging with latten and the like, I am looking for things used to affect the main body of the piece.
Techniques I am looking for would include, but not be limited to cloth covering, bluing/blackening and painting.

I am seeking specific evidence of the techniques and, if possible, examples of their use in artwork or extant example.

I know that a number of these techniques were used as the 15th century moved forward, but my area of interest is specifically the end of the 14th century and very beginning of the 15th.

Thank you for any assistance.

[Woodcrafter]

The body should be covered by a upper thigh, or knee length coat, that can be either belted or unbelted. Also a plain breast (not full front covering) plate could be on top. Sometimes the arms are covered too, or covered only to the elbows. All this depends on exactly where you are from. So basically plain plate bascinet, legs and arms are exposed, with the torso covered. However armour style and display was changing fast during that time period. You need to narrow it down to a couple of year spread.

Actual armour care is polishing, hence non decoration. Cuttle fish bones rubbed over the metal keeps it clean. If you can afford the armour, you can afford the servant to polish it. Mineral oil will help prevent rust in the short term.

[Kenwrec Wulfe]

Sorry if there is confusion... I am not refering to what parts of the body are covered or a surcoat. I am refering to the metal itself being covered - by a blueing/blackening agent (or heat blued), covered by paint or covered by fabric (meaning that it is adhered to the metal by some sort of glue...)

As to the Area - I indicated Saxony and Bavarian areas...

The timeframe was also indicated from 1390-1405 There was not a significant change in armour during that time. The most significant changes did not really start until about (or right before) Agincourt some ten years after the time period to which I refer.

As I am looking for germanic styles, I cannot refer to the French, Italian or English styles, as the German styles were something all their own in most cases. The "gothic" styles did not really start until a little later in the 15th century. Over in England, I know that it was outlawed to cover armour in cloth as it was discovered that the more greedy would cover old or rusty armour and sell it as new with a fresh cloth covering. I have never found anything to indicate that this also was occuring in France, Saxony, Bavaria or anywhere else beyond England.

[Talbot]

There are records of painted armour and a couple of surving pieces show traces of having been painted at some point in their lives. Most notably there is the great helm in Nuremburg that many people believe has a brass cross around the occularia. It is, in fact, painted. However this paint was applied in the 17th century. perhaps it was painted before this but there is no evidence to suggest it. I have run into two references to helmets being painted with flames but both references are questionable. (Imagine a bascinet painted with hotrod flames. Anyone out there good with photoshop? I'd love to see it)

The Veste coburg bascinet is said by Laking to be blued but it is not presently showing any signs of this. I have spoken with the curator and he has never seen any evidence of this but at the time he could not open the case to search for traces because of extreme humidity in the area.


The cuirass fragments from Chalcis are definately covered with cloth.

There are many laws on file prohibiting the sale of cloth covered bascinets. The fact that it was made illegal must be the result of people doing it. The reason for it being illegal is that the cloth covered inferior workmanship anb/or old, damaged products.

[Brian W. Rainey]

(Imagine a bascinet painted with hotrod flames. Anyone out there good with photoshop? I'd love to see it)

I'd be happy to mask some off on your new helmet, Doug! Gotta practice for the paint work I am doing to my bike this winter, anyways!

[chrisvika]

There is a painted late 15th century gothic cuirass in the Philadelphia musuem. The paint job looks quite old, but I have no idea if it was painted during its working life or not. I'll try to post an image in the next couple of days to see what people think.

-Christian

[Kenwrec Wulfe]

What of other pieces of armour (couters, polyens, rebraces, etc...) might have been so covered/painted/blued?


Is there evidence?

As my research has been in the area of England, I have not searched much on the techniques and styles in the germanic provinces much at all.

With as much as I love the shape and style of the onion-top, plus my want for a globose klappviser, I think that going with a full german kit is the best approach, so any assistance anyone can offer for this endeavor would be most appreciated...

[Kenwrec Wulfe]

There is a painted late 15th century gothic cuirass in the Philadelphia musuem. The paint job looks quite old, but I have no idea if it was painted during its working life or not. I'll try to post an image in the next couple of days to see what people think.

-Christian

I have seen a number of late 15th century examples. Unfortunately, they do me no good. I need specifics from 1390 to 1405. Thank you for the input, however...

[Talbot]

What of other pieces of armour (couters, polyens, rebraces, etc...) might have been so covered/painted/blued?


Is there evidence?

As my research has been in the area of England, I have not searched much on the techniques and styles in the germanic provinces much at all.

With as much as I love the shape and style of the onion-top, plus my want for a globose klappviser, I think that going with a full german kit is the best approach, so any assistance anyone can offer for this endeavor would be most appreciated...

You will probably not find much more than that.

[Kenwrec Wulfe]

Anything in art to which I can refer?

I want to know all of my options. The one in which my interest is strongest is the blueing/blackening.

I am not looking for an exact piece to duplicate, but to make something that is historic in nature, based off of common and even a little uncommon techniques and styles.

Also, I notice in many late 14th English effigies that latten (brass/copper/bronze) work was mucxh more prevalent that in earlier parts of the 14th century. As I know that the germans liked to do their own thing, is this something that carried to their armour styles, and if so, was etching or engraving popular?

[Konstantin the Red]

Scouring GothicEye in and then around your period of interest might help you.

[Willing Pell]

I've always wondered if when going to war , the first thing you did was to take your shiney armor off the stand and slap some paint on it to keep it from rusting on the field. It just makes sense.

[Talbot]

I've always wondered if when going to war , the first thing you did was to take your shiney armor off the stand and slap some paint on it to keep it from rusting on the field. It just makes sense.

I think that would depend on your social status. Keith descibed himself as non-royal nobility. This implies something at the level of Baron, duke, Count, etc. In this case the lord would have many retainers and a host of servants to keep everything just so. Even if someone were merely a knight he may well have had a group of squires and retainers to do maintanance and cleaning on the armour.

What you have proposed would make a certain amount of sense for very poor knights, professional soldiers (though not at the level of captains) and people who aquired armour by looting the dead.

At the knightly level and above, looking good is part of the ethos. Renound is built on how well you do in battle and how well you can be recognised.

Painting you armour may be practical but it would not be necessary for someone with a host of servants. In fact, with servants the idea of rusty armour probably was not even on the knight's radar. It was a servant's job, plain and simple.

That being said, I am a knight in the SCA and I have no one to maintain my armour but myself (note to self, remember to beat the squires...) Maintanance issues are significant for me in a way they probably would not have been for someone at my social class level in the middle ages.

My leg armour was rusty when I fought last weekend. I have two squires active in the SCA though neither made the nine hour journey to the tournament with me. Were this the real middle ages my squires would have been with me at a tournament. They would not have had legitimate real-life committments that kept them away from me. Attending the tournament and serving thier knight would be their real life. They would not have allowed me to go out on the field with rusty armour. It would not have done their health any good (see above) nor would it have allowed them to bathe in the reflected glory of having thier knight look good on the field. Real life does not allow for this nor is it realistic to expect that it should. (Though there are surely some who take the game farther and believe it should)

[Talbot]

oops

[Talbot]

issue at work with posting

[Talbot]

My squire should have caught this quadruple post!

[Jehan de Pelham]

I would go further yet than Doug, and say that knights would definitely have retinue sufficient to keep one's harness in fine condition, and that even an esquire would employ a dog's body or two or share one with another esquire in his Captain's employ to handle such needs. I may depict the fictional may have been character Jehan de Pelham, esquire, but I am in reality a valet to this character named John McFarlin who gets put to task keeping Jehan de Pelham looking right on the field.

In most of the iconography that I have seen, the armor is depicted using grey or blue paint. The depicting of armor with dark blue paint, with grey for highlights, is a peculiarly low country 15th century phenomena. That is to say I see it in renditions of Froissart's Chronicles made in the mid-fifteenth century.

I read the grey paint as being bare metal, polished. I read the blue paint as blued metal, polished. I hold that if it were exposed in the 14th century, it was generally polished and bare, though the iconography and the historical record shows blueing before and after the period you're shooting for--the Black Prince's famous harness for before, which it seems likely that those who could would imitate, and the iconography of the low countries for after. I feel confident that blackening is an option for the era given, given the clear usefulness of the technique, the distinct visual impression, and its durability, and also because of the evidence before and after which I have seen.

By the era you describe, any man at arms with the means would have gone with the Italian export full alwhite harness, with the cloth lentner mentioned in some cases, which would have sleeves, and in others the fabric jipon, without sleeves. My practice, which is to avoid cloth coverings entirely, I have never actually seen in iconography to my memory for the era I depict (1370-1380, earlier than your era). The Germans were given it seems to strange throwbacks and variations and holding on to splinted and leather defenses for far longer than men at arms in France and England; I do not know their practices as well as I should, given my expressed servitude to an Austrian in the SCA.

This paint thing, I don't know about...I'd have to speculate using modern common sense--which dictates that getting a can of black Krylon and spryaing the inside of your harness is a good idea. But I'd think that coating the inside of a harness with some kind of coating would make sense--but remember they didn't have the same sorts of paints that we do. It's not the same as spraying the inside of your armor with Krylon. I myself would not recommend it. All you do is trade one kind of maintenance for another--instead of wiping and oiling and polishing, you're touching up and repairing flaking paint.

A further comment on patina: Only after a couple of years of maintenance with the occasional slip does harness begin to adopt a subtle and attractive patina which adds to its attractiveness. My harness arrived from Jeff Hedgecock with almost machine-perfect finish, which I appreciated when it arrived, for it was brand new. But now it has the soft glow of hours upon hours of drinking Guinness, listening to Owain Phyfe or Estampie and rubbing it with 2000 grit automotive sandpaper, small pits from the occasional day in the rain, and in general a used and maintained appearance which adds to its appearance, in my estimation.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org
Proprietor, The Compagniye Store

[Talbot]

I would go further yet than Doug, and say that knights would definitely have retinue sufficient to keep one's harness in fine condition, and that even an esquire would employ a dog's body or two or share one with another esquire in his Captain's employ to handle such needs. I may depict the fictional may have been character Jehan de Pelham, esquire, but I am in reality a valet to this character named John McFarlin who gets put to task keeping Jehan de Pelham looking right on the field.

In most of the iconography that I have seen, the armor is depicted using grey or blue paint. The depicting of armor with dark blue paint, with grey for highlights, is a peculiarly low country 15th century phenomena. That is to say I see it in renditions of Froissart's Chronicles made in the mid-fifteenth century.

I read the grey paint as being bare metal, polished. I read the blue paint as blued metal, polished. I hold that if it were exposed in the 14th century, it was generally polished and bare, though the iconography and the historical record shows blueing before and after the period you're shooting for--the Black Prince's famous harness for before, which it seems likely that those who could would imitate, and the iconography of the low countries for after. I feel confident that blackening is an option for the era given, given the clear usefulness of the technique, the distinct visual impression, and its durability, and also because of the evidence before and after which I have seen.

By the era you describe, any man at arms with the means would have gone with the Italian export full alwhite harness, with the cloth lentner mentioned in some cases, which would have sleeves, and in others the fabric jipon, without sleeves. My practice, which is to avoid cloth coverings entirely, I have never actually seen in iconography to my memory for the era I depict (1370-1380, earlier than your era). The Germans were given it seems to strange throwbacks and variations and holding on to splinted and leather defenses for far longer than men at arms in France and England; I do not know their practices as well as I should, given my expressed servitude to an Austrian in the SCA.

This paint thing, I don't know about...I'd have to speculate using modern common sense--which dictates that getting a can of black Krylon and spryaing the inside of your harness is a good idea. But I'd think that coating the inside of a harness with some kind of coating would make sense--but remember they didn't have the same sorts of paints that we do. It's not the same as spraying the inside of your armor with Krylon. I myself would not recommend it. All you do is trade one kind of maintenance for another--instead of wiping and oiling and polishing, you're touching up and repairing flaking paint.

A further comment on patina: Only after a couple of years of maintenance with the occasional slip does harness begin to adopt a subtle and attractive patina which adds to its attractiveness. My harness arrived from Jeff Hedgecock with almost machine-perfect finish, which I appreciated when it arrived, for it was brand new. But now it has the soft glow of hours upon hours of drinking Guinness, listening to Owain Phyfe or Estampie and rubbing it with 2000 grit automotive sandpaper, small pits from the occasional day in the rain, and in general a used and maintained appearance which adds to its appearance, in my estimation.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org
Proprietor, The Compagniye Store

My friend Jehan is right.

I love the lok of well maintained but no longer perfect armour. My gauntlets are merely oiled. I have only a pit or two but thery no longer have the perfect mirror finish with which Mac delivered them.

My legs on the other hand are badly maintained and have been thoroughly abused, rusted and derusted. I have conciously not ground out the pits. I enjoy them as they make the armour look lived in. These legs are not my good ones, which are are well maitained.

[Cet]

I would go further yet than Doug, and say that knights would definitely have retinue sufficient to keep one's harness in fine condition, and that even an esquire would employ a dog's body or two or share one with another esquire in his Captain's employ to handle such needs.

I can't resist being the fly in the soup by pointing out that according to Cabaret the Earl of Buckingham asked to relocate a deed of 15 v 15 from Nantes to Vannes with the excuse that "his people had been befor Nantes for three months with the result that their harnes was reduced to a sorry state."



Sorry for the derailment. I've not seen much regarding coverings in a German context though English accounts from the period list cloth and leahter coverings as well as gilding. Not enough gilding going on among us.

[Erik Schmidt]

By the era you describe, any man at arms with the means would have gone with the Italian export full alwhite harness, .........

I don't believe the effigies tell that story.

My practice, which is to avoid cloth coverings entirely, I have never actually seen in iconography to my memory for the era I depict (1370-1380, earlier than your era).

What about Ralph de Knevyngton, Aveley, Essex, 1370?

Erik

[Erik Schmidt]

Timeframe: 1390 - 1405
Location: Saxony, Bavaria and surrounding provinces.

.......What would be used to color, cover, alter the steel to both protect against the elements (i.e. - rust) and to decorate the metal. .............. Techniques I am looking for would include, but not be limited to cloth covering, bluing/blackening and painting.

I am seeking specific evidence of the techniques and, if possible, examples of their use in artwork or extant example.

I can't think of any example of what you are looking for, not within that timeframe or area.

Erik

[Cet]

Erik, do you mean that you believe center mounted visors could stay in the up position during use?

Jehan, are you refering to a specifically English context when you eschew covered armours?

[Jehan de Pelham]

Cet: I can't resist being the fly in the soup by pointing out that according to Cabaret the Earl of Buckingham asked to relocate a deed of 15 v 15 from Nantes to Vannes with the excuse that "his people had been befor Nantes for three months with the result that their harnes was reduced to a sorry state."

Yeah, but we're talking about the level of panoply that an Earl would have wanted for a deed of arms, which was I feel better than we plebs can manage. I hold that an Earl would be ashamed to make such a showing as even the best of us could manage on our best day, except in a very limited context--say the individual rider on an individual mount by himself.

Erik: You are absolutely right. I had the information and it slipped my mind.

Whip them effigies out, good sir, for I will make ready apology to the truth incarnate. Is Knevington that wierd one with the mail and splint limb defenses really rather late in in the 14th Century? I'm without Stothard right now so I'm at a disadvantage. What I am referring to are the effigies attached. Help us out, don't hold back, because I'm interested in the real information even if I look like I stepped out with an unsatisfactory answer to try and push the ball forward.

I have some images to share, but they're just over 100K, and GIF files. I'll work on scanning and posting them for our mutual benefit. I need to work on my working knowledge of late German 14th century harness--it's a different game than harness west of the Rhine.

Cet: "Jehan, are you refering to a specifically English context when you eschew covered armours"

The record suggests that covered armor was not permitted--by this I mean that the material of the armor when presented for sale as a finished product was not permitted to be concealed by an attached covering. I imagine that under these jipons in the English effigies are breastplates like the Churburg 14 I have, bare metal without leather or cloth covering. The jipons are for heraldic display, I deem, rather than for protection of the armor.

My practice is not well supported. The Hohenklingen effigy has an exposed metal breastplate, but it's a German practice and a not especially common one. I look for it and do not find it, but I don't want to hide the armor either.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org
Proprietor, The Compagniye Store

[Cet]

Yeah, but we're talking about the level of panoply that an Earl would have wanted for a deed of arms, which was I feel better than we plebs can manage. I hold that an Earl would be ashamed to make such a showing as even the best of us could manage on our best day, except in a very limited context--say the individual rider on an individual mount by himself.

The Earl wasn't participating in the deeds so this is not the case. Instead it refers to the state of the arms of squires and knights under his command, quite a different thing. Further he especially declines as some of the dees were to be al outrrance suggesting that his concern was more with the functionality of the harness and not his appearance. Simialrly, if I rcall correctly the English side in the 30 originally refused the offer of a contest begging that they had insufficient armour among them to adequately equip 30 men for such a fight.
The assumption of all cap-a- pie men a arms during the 14th century is all think a bit of a fiction- supported by idealized miniatures perhaps but as often belied by chronical accounts, wills and inventories. Perhaps too there is a tendencey to extend the pomp and ornateness of 15th century deeds backwards into the 14th. My feeling is that 14th century deeds were often, if not exactly impromptue, rather straight forward in comparison and more about the fighting than the pagent. There where fantastic and ornate tournaments done but I think that these were somewhat in the majority.

The record suggests that covered armor was not permitted--by this I mean that the material of the armor when presented for sale as a finished product was not permitted to be concealed by an attached covering. I imagine that under these jipons in the English effigies are breastplates like the Churburg 14 I have, bare metal without leather or cloth covering. The jipons are for heraldic display, I deem, rather than for protection of the armor.

The record suggests that covered bascinets were not permitted to be sold already covered; quite different from saying that covered bascinets could not be worn and saying nothing about armour for the rest of the body. Much if not most of the armour of the Duke of Glouscter inventoried in his will (1397) was covered with material. Further, art from Northern Italy during the period when supposed export white harness where being made seems to more often show a cuirass consisting of plates inside a fabric foundation. There's no functional reason why the 'jupon' shown in the Black Princes' effigy could not be such armour itself, in fact the different form of his actuall jupon preserved with the effigy might actually suggest that this is the case.

[Jehan de Pelham]

Damn you Cet, you're right. Bother.

Teach me to post when I'm tired and stupid.

You're going to have to post before me from now on and save me the embarrassment, if you please.

Agreed on 14th century deeds. The truth regarding late 14th century harness sounds like it needs a book written, if it is as different from what I believe it to be as you say.

But...we've digressed considerably from the original question, which is metal treatments and coverings for armor from Germany, for which we do not have such solid evidence as this evidence which you present regarding fabric coverings for English harness. I owe some scans of effigies, which will come today when I get a moment. These may suggest some solutions which my heretofore cloddish use of mistaken conclusions have not.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org
Proprietor, The Compagniye Store
Obviously not on his game today

[Cet]

German stuff is woefully unlooked at especially by English speakers. I hope EriK will be correcting that in the future.

For us English portrayels I think we're over reliant on limited sources, especially brasses (which were largely made be a handfull of shops). As I dig into what other sources for English and French ( which I incresingly see as distinct styles) I keep finding common ideas turned on their heads.

[InfinitySteel]

I would think to look at any period method that was used to preserve metals. Things like olive or other vegetable oils come immediately to mind. Something that would stick and keep water off.

[Jehan de Pelham]

I am honestly looking forward to a schooling. I don't mind looking stupid as long as I blunder into someone who can say "Nay, you are mistaken. This is what the truth is on the matter." Politeness is gravy, but knowledge is key.

And I DO need to go hang out on the ARS forums. I got a membership and all and I need to benefit from lurking there soaking up some discussions.

Okay. This is what I have from a comparison of English and German effigies from c. 1400. As in any limited sample, there are holes you could drive a truck through. This is only a comparison of these. If someone has others, by all means, bring them on and discuss them.

English Examples: Bardolf and Buttesthorn Effigies, c. 1400 English.

What is depicted is a pair of what I'm called earlier alwhite harnesses. That's what I mean when I said that earlier, but now that I think on it that term is more correctly attributed to a harness completely bereft of fabric components, say like the tonlet skirted English examples of ten to fifteen years later (good modern examples would be Peter Fuller's harness or the one depicted on Mr. Gillespie's website). My assumption was in that case that what is under the jipons is a solid breast and possibly backplate, so that without the jipon, these would or could be fully bare metal harnesses.

Now, what's going on with the torso armor? Well, it's hard to tell except through close examination of effigies at close distance, peering at glimpses of what lies underneath at the arm holes of the jipons--if what we're talking about is visual artistic evidence. These bad scans of drawings don't cut it for that sort of delving. But one thing that strikes me is the anatomical improbability of the waists on these gentlemen. Judging from all other measurements, we're looking at waists of corseted proportions--quite strange. Perhaps an idealistic departure--odd given the attention to detail and realism of the rest of the depictions.

So, I think we have to defer to the written record which Cet has elucidated were about fabric covered armors...but what does that mean? Velvet-covered corrazinas? Small-plate brigandine? Was it something that would have looked like these effigies? The thing that comes closest in my mind, is a solid globose breastplate. But that's a guess, and it's colored by my own judgment and investment in that sort of armor, I'll be frank and admit.

As for the remainder of the harness, the limb protection is the full expression of 14th century plate limb defense--multiple lame spaulders (the familiar style for Bardolf, an unusual depiction for Buttesthorn), fully enclosed upper cannons, full case greaves, back plates for the cuisses. Buttesthorn even has maille chausses to cover the openings uncovered by plate. There's even a nice little detail in the cuisse backplates: what I am led to believe are rolled lower edges. Complete plate foot protection on both harnesses, and the obligatory finger gauntlets, plaque belts, and rondel daggers.

Austrian(?) Examples: Two Birkenbachs, c. 1393 and c. 1403

Now, Kenwrec Wulfe said Saxony and Bavaria--someone could easily quash this by examples clearly set in Saxon or Bavarian examples--but these are the German examples, set in the correct era, residing in Munich--I do not know what region these may depict--that I have.

What is immediately apparent is the difference in line and appearance effected by the use of textile components. These harken back to the flowing cyclases of the early to mid 14th century in western europe. I don't know whether the way these harnesses are depicted is a factor of the artist (possible). The effigy of Dieter von Hohenberg of c. 1381 (I will submit this later) has an appearance much more similar to the English examples provided here for example--and with them pesky chains! So, the Germans vex on more than one front, by being depicted as both with the fashions, and quaint. And why should this be so vexing? Only if we insist on a coherent progression of fashions.

What is going on under these flowing garments? Who can say? Could be many things. Could be splinted limb harness. Could be any sort of plate limb defense from primordial to fully developed. As for the torso, there appear to be some sort of solid breastplate either covered by fabric or worn over the top of a haubergeon and the flowing garment.

The leg defense is exposed, and in the case of the older example is exposed mail leggings with steel knee defenses (not the triple crested style depicted in a couple of effigies from twenty years earlier--Herzog Heinrich IV, Ulrich V von Landschade) and greaves (the picture is too small for me to guess whether they are fully enclosing greaves or not), and in the later example the upper legs are covered by the cote to the top of the knee. I cannot tell whether the feet are encased in steel or not.

Graf Gerhard von Julich und Gemahlin Early 14th Century

This one is not well dated by the picture I have. but it has some interesting features--a mail standard with a nice lining trim poking out the top and hanging over the mail for one. I put it in as a German example following the form of the English examples given.

So, blah blah blah...and still I don't add anything further to the real question: metal surface treatment. I should be horsewhipped.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org
Proprietor, The Compagniye Store

[Jason Grimes]

When I was doing a lot of research on Kastenbrust armour (1420-1450) I looked into the late 14th and very early 15th centuries to try and find out how the style evolved from earlier styles. What I found for your time period and country (Germany) of interest was that almost always the cuirass was covered in some sort of material. The rest of the armour's bits and peices were almost always polished white. I don't think I have come across an example of a painted or blackened examples in the artwork of the period. But I wasn't looking for examples either, so YMMV. The Institut für mittelalterliche Realienkunde has a very cool web site with literally thousands of period artworks from Germany online at:

http://www.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/realonline/

If you don't know German it can be a pain to navigate but the results are worth it. Just put in the time period span you are interested in and start clicking on the links. I have spent way too much time on this site tracking down artworks of interest. The scans are not the best quality or as high of resolution as one would want, but they do sometimes include closeup shots that are a real help.

[Erik Schmidt]

Is Knevington that wierd one with the mail and splint limb defenses really rather late in in the 14th Century?

No, he's the one with the Munich style covered breastplate with integral covered, lamed fauld. So that really puts cloth covered armour into your period in the English realm.

Whip them effigies out, good sir, for I will make ready apology to the truth incarnate. ....... I need to work on my working knowledge of late German 14th century harness--it's a different game than harness west of the Rhine.

I'm afraid I can't put together a lecture on it here, suffice to say that there is plenty of evidence to show the wealthy weren't just sourcing their armour from Italy.
Nuremberg was well known by the end of the 14th century as a significant centre of armour production, although they were supposedly still copying the Italian stuff to a great extent at the turn of the century.
If you look at the Italian and the German armour, one finds that the fans on the couters are sometimes not present in Germany, whereas they were pretty standard in Italy. The knees of the leg armour also tended to have a rounded point in Italy, whereas in Germany they were often drawn out into a destinct tip.
One of the greatest differences is that the Italians tended to go for the lamed fauld c.1400 (as did the English and French), whereas the Germans at the time stepped of to explore the use of mail, scale and just plain leather.
Add to this the continued use of the klappvisor hinge and the advent of the Ogival shaped bascinet, not to mention hiding much of the armour under their huge sleeved lentners.
Although no doubt many did source some or all their armour from Italy, many wealthy knights opted for the home grown version.

A couple of the many good examples, additional to those photos posted above, are the effigies of Friedrich von Sachsenhausen c.1400 and Gedhard von Querfurt, c.1400.

Erik

[Erik Schmidt]

German stuff is woefully unlooked at especially by English speakers. I hope EriK will be correcting that in the future.

That's the plan Cet

I have given myself to the end of 2007 to have a book ready to go to a publisher. There should be some 200 central European effigies going in plus another 400 artworks.

Erik

[Cet]

there is plenty of evidence to show the wealthy weren't just sourcing their armour from Italy.

Very true, an example of this that has intrigued me since I first read it is that while Francesco Dantini regularly imported armour from Northern Italy he apparently orrdered bascinets of the most fasionable style from Lyon when a customer called for them. ( Merchant of Prato by Iris Origo)

Even in the areas where the overall components of armour seem realativly the same i.e England, France, Northern Italy, and the Low Countries small details of style become apparent upon fuller examination of the available sources.

[Jehan de Pelham]

Erik Schmidt: "No, he's the one with the Munich style covered breastplate with integral covered, lamed fauld. So that really puts cloth covered armour into your period in the English realm."

Cet: "For us English portrayels I think we're over reliant on limited sources, especially brasses (which were largely made be a handfull of shops). As I dig into what other sources for English and French ( which I incresingly see as distinct styles) I keep finding common ideas turned on their heads."

After looking at some effigies from England and from Germany, it seems apparent that some of these guys were just doing whatever they wanted.

I'm noticing the things you're pointing out--the Graf Gerhard effigy has no spaulders.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org
Proprietor, The Compagniye Store

[Kenwrec Wulfe]

Scouring GothicEye in and then around your period of interest might help you.

Gothiceye is great for English, but not for German. Been there many times in my English research, but thanks for the direction.

[Kenwrec Wulfe]

When I was doing a lot of research on Kastenbrust armour (1420-1450) I looked into the late 14th and very early 15th centuries to try and find out how the style evolved from earlier styles. What I found for your time period and country (Germany) of interest was that almost always the cuirass was covered in some sort of material. The rest of the armour's bits and peices were almost always polished white. I don't think I have come across an example of a painted or blackened examples in the artwork of the period. But I wasn't looking for examples either, so YMMV. The Institut für mittelalterliche Realienkunde has a very cool web site with literally thousands of period artworks from Germany online at:

http://www.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/realonline/

If you don't know German it can be a pain to navigate but the results are worth it. Just put in the time period span you are interested in and start clicking on the links. I have spent way too much time on this site tracking down artworks of interest. The scans are not the best quality or as high of resolution as one would want, but they do sometimes include closeup shots that are a real help.

Excellent!! This will be a good resource! Thank you!