Greetings all,
sorry for bringing up the gambeson topic again but there's one thing I have not found too much information on in the forum archive:
Which type of padding is more effective in SCA combat - stuffed tube or quilted layers?
I'm in the process of making my first gambeson. This is what I've figured out/planned so far:
* The outer shell will be natural color jeans-type fabric
* The pattern to start with will be a cotehardie pattern to have something inbetween the "Price jupon" and the famous "generic 101 pattern".
* Most likely I will use the type of cotton fabric the bathroom towels are made out of for the padding (BTW: How many yards should I plan for if it's 58" wide)
The gambeson will be accompanied by a cloth-covered breastplate w/ faulds as well as splinted arms and legs.
I'm aware that the "tube" method will be easier on my sewing machine, will allow for more effective usage of the padding fabric but will also require means to prevent sagging. The "quilt" method should make patterning easier. But I just can't come to a final decision. So - which one will protect me better?
Thanks a lot in advance!
Will
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* Noli fortius me ferire *
Ld. William of Llanwarne
Incipient Shire of Two Seas, Drachenwald, SCA
Gambeson effectiveness
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Konstantin the Red
- Archive Member
- Posts: 26713
- Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Port Hueneme CA USA
Rainald has a good point. However, there is also that piece of altarpiece art that we suspect was painted in the 15th century, from then-extant 14th-c. artifacts, to wit, a pigface bascinet and a knee-length gambeson, which had the quilting arranged as a very attractive "spray" of curved lines rising from the beltline area of the garment. I can't quite recall if a similar motif was followed below the belt, but the artwork on this altarpiece was remarkable for making some attempt to depict old-fashioned, "ancient" harness, rather than just depicting harness contemporary with the time the work was executed.
The only other comparable example of such "historic" artwork I can think of is a 17th-c. painting of Edward the Black Prince -- in his 14th-c. harness, but with the plates black-finished in a color very familiar to later-era illuminations, with an identifying inscription hovering in the background in a resoundingly 17th-century style of portraiture. His armour (which I suspect was based on his tomb effigy) was pretty faithfully delineated, I thought.
For that width of terrycloth for stuffing, about two layers of it should do you, though perhaps you might like three at the point of the shoulder, and perhaps going inward toward the neck from there -- so four yards should do you. Is this an international-style/Camail & Jupon armour? I daresay you'd want a yard and a half more for bascinet and camail lining to the same thickness. Btw, about the easiest way to finish the edges and hems of arming-cote and bascinet lining is to sew bias tape of sufficient breadth folded over the edge and topstitched down. It's easiest if you first sew one side down, then fold it over the edge and finish up sewing the other side down, rather than trying to get both sides at once -- too easy for one or the other half to wander from under your stitch line.
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"The Minstrel Boy to the war is gone..."
[This message has been edited by Konstantin the Red (edited 11-10-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Konstantin the Red (edited 11-10-2002).]
The only other comparable example of such "historic" artwork I can think of is a 17th-c. painting of Edward the Black Prince -- in his 14th-c. harness, but with the plates black-finished in a color very familiar to later-era illuminations, with an identifying inscription hovering in the background in a resoundingly 17th-century style of portraiture. His armour (which I suspect was based on his tomb effigy) was pretty faithfully delineated, I thought.
For that width of terrycloth for stuffing, about two layers of it should do you, though perhaps you might like three at the point of the shoulder, and perhaps going inward toward the neck from there -- so four yards should do you. Is this an international-style/Camail & Jupon armour? I daresay you'd want a yard and a half more for bascinet and camail lining to the same thickness. Btw, about the easiest way to finish the edges and hems of arming-cote and bascinet lining is to sew bias tape of sufficient breadth folded over the edge and topstitched down. It's easiest if you first sew one side down, then fold it over the edge and finish up sewing the other side down, rather than trying to get both sides at once -- too easy for one or the other half to wander from under your stitch line.
------------------
"The Minstrel Boy to the war is gone..."
[This message has been edited by Konstantin the Red (edited 11-10-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Konstantin the Red (edited 11-10-2002).]
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Konstantin the Red
- Archive Member
- Posts: 26713
- Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Port Hueneme CA USA
This thread off the FireStryker LH board may be useful:
http://www.wolfeargent.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000104
http://www.wolfeargent.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000104
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Rainald:
Period gambesons/aketons/jupons always seem to be quilted vertically. At least all the references I have seen.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Unless you're doing a Byzantine impression, in which case they had diamond-shaped quilting.
G--
Period gambesons/aketons/jupons always seem to be quilted vertically. At least all the references I have seen.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Unless you're doing a Byzantine impression, in which case they had diamond-shaped quilting.
G--
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by william:
<B>Greetings all,
* The outer shell will be natural color jeans-type fabric
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
A suggestion: use Linen for the gambeson instead. The cloths "breaths" better, thereby allowing some air through.
- Marcus.
<B>Greetings all,
* The outer shell will be natural color jeans-type fabric
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
A suggestion: use Linen for the gambeson instead. The cloths "breaths" better, thereby allowing some air through.
- Marcus.
In SCA combat? The answer I'd have to give is that neither is going to protect you from direct blows, but either is going to protect you from yourself.
I have, on the other hand, actually seen gambesons that were legal as rigid body protection: in Atlantia, no less. It was a stuffed tube arrangement. Each tube was about 2" in diameter, and was so crammed with padding that the wearer looked like part of a bomb disposal unit, or an off-white Michelin man.
In short, it was stupid. Forget about authenticity: it was just stupid.
I've also seen middle of the road arrangements, where the gambeson isn't meant as rigid protection, but as something to get in the way of a blow. They were all stuffed tube arrangements. I think (opinion only) that that sort of gambeson is suited to areas that aren't required be covered with rigid protection, like shoulders and buttocks.
In my experience, however, gambesons aren't supposed to protect you from your enemy, they're supposed to protect you from your armor. In a pinch, you can get away with wearing a quilted flannel shirt, and get the same effect.
It is my opinion, and only my opinion, that if you're wearing this under armor, something quilted, a little thicker than a quilted flannel shirt, works wonderfully, especially if you wear a lot of metal.
Any hard blow will be a little lessened anywhere you're wearing it, obviously. But the biggest advantage is that when you leave the field for the day, you might be a little hotter and a little sweatier, but you're not going to have raw skin wherever you have a strap, you're not going to have blood blisters everywhere there's an articulation, etc.
I'm trying to wear a lot of metal, and this arrangement works well for me. I don't have custom fitted armor. I do, however, have a ninja seamstress as a wife. I got her to make me a custom fitted gambeson, over which I wear a lot of off- the- shelf armor that fits a little more loosely than it should. I'm a big fan of floating articulations over a well fitted gam. That way I can comfortably wear armor that wasn't made for me. Every time I pick up or make a new piece of steel, it just gets strapped or pointed on top of the gam, and even though it's not an exact fit, I don't get bitten.
This idea would work equally well for leather, since you wouldn't leave the field with rugburn where the strap touches your skin. Be advised, however, that leather is the death of a good looking gambeson. Even if it's not dyed, it's still going to discolor it.
HELMUT
I have, on the other hand, actually seen gambesons that were legal as rigid body protection: in Atlantia, no less. It was a stuffed tube arrangement. Each tube was about 2" in diameter, and was so crammed with padding that the wearer looked like part of a bomb disposal unit, or an off-white Michelin man.
In short, it was stupid. Forget about authenticity: it was just stupid.
I've also seen middle of the road arrangements, where the gambeson isn't meant as rigid protection, but as something to get in the way of a blow. They were all stuffed tube arrangements. I think (opinion only) that that sort of gambeson is suited to areas that aren't required be covered with rigid protection, like shoulders and buttocks.
In my experience, however, gambesons aren't supposed to protect you from your enemy, they're supposed to protect you from your armor. In a pinch, you can get away with wearing a quilted flannel shirt, and get the same effect.
It is my opinion, and only my opinion, that if you're wearing this under armor, something quilted, a little thicker than a quilted flannel shirt, works wonderfully, especially if you wear a lot of metal.
Any hard blow will be a little lessened anywhere you're wearing it, obviously. But the biggest advantage is that when you leave the field for the day, you might be a little hotter and a little sweatier, but you're not going to have raw skin wherever you have a strap, you're not going to have blood blisters everywhere there's an articulation, etc.
I'm trying to wear a lot of metal, and this arrangement works well for me. I don't have custom fitted armor. I do, however, have a ninja seamstress as a wife. I got her to make me a custom fitted gambeson, over which I wear a lot of off- the- shelf armor that fits a little more loosely than it should. I'm a big fan of floating articulations over a well fitted gam. That way I can comfortably wear armor that wasn't made for me. Every time I pick up or make a new piece of steel, it just gets strapped or pointed on top of the gam, and even though it's not an exact fit, I don't get bitten.
This idea would work equally well for leather, since you wouldn't leave the field with rugburn where the strap touches your skin. Be advised, however, that leather is the death of a good looking gambeson. Even if it's not dyed, it's still going to discolor it.
HELMUT