Zinc, galvanized steel, welding, and metal fume fever

schreiber · Post by **schreiber** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:51 pm

Zinc, galvanized steel, welding, and metal fume fever

This comes up every time anybody makes any mention of zinc, galvanized steel, or welding. There is always a warning about welding or heating zinc, and the effects of breathing vaprous zinc vary, depending on who is reporting, from mild headaches to instantaneous death.

So I say to myself, "Self, if you discover lead paint on your walls, black-clad strike force agents from the EPA will storm your house and make you pay thousands of dollars to have it removed professionally, but here on the Armor Archive, people don't think twice about regularly playing with blocks of lead with their bare hands. So what's up with the zinc claims? True, or Urban Legend?"

So I decided to do the homework. I am not speaking as an authority on the matter - I simply did the homework. Whether or not you choose to vaporize zinc is your decision, and should be based not only on this information, but your own studies as well.

http://www.aws.org/technical/facts/FACT-25.PDF

This is a Safety and Health Fact Sheet from the American Welding Society. Points of interest:

Zinc oxide fumes cause a fluâ€“like illness called Metal Fume Fever. Symptoms of Metal Fume Fever include headache, fever, chills, muscle aches, thirst, nausea, vomiting, chest soreness, fatigue, gastrointestinal pain, weakness, and tiredness. The symptoms usually start several hours after exposure; the attack may last 6 to 24 hours. Complete recovery generally occurs without intervention within 24 to 48 hours.

Also:

There is no information in the literature regarding the effects of longâ€“term
exposure to zinc oxide fumes.

However, the sheet also advises these procedures:

â€¢ Keep your head out of the fumes.
â€¢ Do not breathe fumes.
â€¢ Use enough ventilation, exhaust at the arc, or both, to keep fumes and gases from your breathing zone and the general area.
â€¢ If adequacy of the ventilation or exhaust is uncertain, have your exposure measured and compared to the Threshold Limit Values (TLV) in the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) for the galvanized material.
â€¢ Never take chances with welding fumes. If none of this is adequate or practical, wear an approved respirator, airâ€“supplied or otherwise, that adequately removes the fumes from your breathing zone.

I added the bold to show that even though the effects are temporary, one should still not breathe the fumes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_fume_fever

Wikipedia doesn't add much and as of 10/27/06 contains no references. This article does not contradict the AWS Safety Sheet, except to say:

Depending on the metals involved, repeated exposure can lead to longer term illnesses such as bronchitis, pneumonia, pulmonary edema, nasal cancer and even bone damage.

However, without references we can not corroborate this.

http://www.osha.gov/doc/outreachtrainin ... dhlth.html

Osha's treatment of the topic is very brief, but contains this:

If you encounter these symptoms, contact a physician and have a medical examination / evaluation.

Osha also supports the AWS claim that there are no known long-term health effects.

NOW, the article you've all been waiting for:

http://www.anvilfire.com/iForge/tutor/safety3/index.htm

This is the link to the anvilfire page for the blacksmith who allegedly died from breathing zinc oxide fumes.

I know there are smiths that frequent anvilfire here, so let me say first of all that I am in no way trying to denigrade Mr. Wilson - I'm merely trying to find out about metal fume fever.

I invite everyone to notice these seldom mentioned points:

1) Mr. Wilson was intentionally vaporizing large amounts of zinc in a forge, not welding.

2) Mr. Wilson suffered from emphysema.

3) There are no active references which support any of the zinc oxide based health concerns made by the blacksmiths. Readers will also be confused by their addition of health effects from other compounds, such as zinc chloride.

4) A week passed between when he ran the forge and when he died, almost twice the maximum amount of time listed by any of the above articles for complete recovery from zinc oxide based metal fume fever.

5) The article also mentions that he contracted pneumonia before dying. Wikipedia lists pneumonia as a possible result from repeated exposure, but this contains no reference nor is "repeated exposure" qualified.

I would certainly like to know more about Mr. Wilson's case, but for now the existing evidence doesn't support the idea that vaprous zinc oxide is entirely to blame.

Several other dangers to smiths are mentioned in this article, in particular that of unknown metals being in the workpiece (cadmium is nastier than most). It appears as if the smiths are attempting to show the reader that there are dangers to our hobbies other than the obvious ones, rather than highlighting the dangers of zinc oxide in particular.

Pointing out hidden dangers should be something we all strive to do - but in this case, based on the evidence, the hidden danger of zinc oxide fumes, particularly from casual welding, is easily avoidable, temporary, and not as serious as is generally accepted.

Please comment - and I'd probably be willing to take any other evidence offered and create an article out of it.....

Jurgen · Post by **Jurgen** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:42 pm

The basic rule when dealing with metal fumes of any sort is to avoid them whenever possible. Some are very toxic, some less so, but it's best not to breathe them at all.

Jurgen

knuut · Post by **knuut** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:42 pm

I have had zink poisoning twice (once my dumb, once somebody elses dumb). Obviously it is survivable...but...IT REALY REALY SUCKS! I would rather have root canal surgery with no anesthetic than go through that again.

Johann Lederer · Post by **Johann Lederer** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:42 pm

I had it once, after casting zinc cannonballs at a foundry WITH A RESPIRATOR ON and Exhaust hood. Never want to deal with that again.

sfrees · Post by **sfrees** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:39 pm

Permanent or not, zinc poisoning is a nasty experiance. I always mention it to guys who are new to metal working and decide to work with galvinized metal as a favor. I equate it to something like letting a friend know that a girl he is going to date gave you crabs. Crabs aren't permanent they aren't fatal, but you'd be doing him a solid to warn him right?

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:08 pm

Schreiber:

Make your own choices. Include in that choosing who to trust.

Personally, I choose not to heat zinc.

Gavin

Xnke · Post by **Xnke** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:26 pm

I am an amature foundryman, and I melt and cast zinc and zinc -containing alloys all the time. Melting zinc-based alloys is not a problem, the temperatures are not high enought to vaporize the zinc. Brass, and some Bronzes, will have the zinc flash out, and while some people are more sensitive than others, EVERYONE will have a reaction to zinc. The more times you are affected by metal fume fever, the easier you will get it. "Flashing out" is when the metal vaporizes, and you will see a whispy white smoke or vapor plume, zinc oxide being white.

That said, I've had it three times. Forget water, drink milk. (I like mine ice cold) Other than that, the only thing that can make you feel any better is time, and the physican that I've seen about it has told me that there are no lasting effects from zinc fumes, but if I ever suspect cadmium fumes, to rush to the hospital. (he phrased it as "get your ass to the ER before that metal has time to get cold." Note that this was for Cadmium, for zinc he reccommended milk and rest.)

Really, avoid heating any plated/coated metals if at all possible. Zinc is not the only metal used to coat steel to prevent rust, as others have stated, Cadmium is also used, and is even nastier. Lead is often hyped as being harmful to humans, but this is untrue. Compounds of lead are what is harmful, and even then the danger to adults is still limited. Children, however are at a much greater risk. Lead metal, such as the large blocks of lead sometimes found in a blacksmith's shop, are not going to harm you, but the little flakes of lead that get pounded off and are floating in the air waiting to be oxidised on the way to your lungs are not exactly beneficial to your health, and are certainly bad for your children.

Best way to be sure is to avoid heavy metals when possible, and be wary of them when you do need to work with them.

M. Eversberg II · Post by **M. Eversberg II** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:07 pm

I was given a tip that to remove zinc from metal, stick it in a rack over a burning pit and leave. Come back after a while and the zinc fumes will be gone.

If this is good or not I don't know, but I don't immagine it would be great for the metal in question...

schreiber · Post by **schreiber** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 1:13 am

Kilkenny wrote:
Make your own choices. Include in that choosing who to trust.

Gavin

That was kind of my point.

I choose to trust OSHA, the American Welding Society, and Wikipedia over a bunch of people who present information in the same format as an email scare.

Nobody got aids from a theater seat, either.

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 8:15 am

M. Eversberg II wrote:I was given a tip that to remove zinc from metal, stick it in a rack over a burning pit and leave. Come back after a while and the zinc fumes will be gone.

If this is good or not I don't know, but I don't immagine it would be great for the metal in question...

Less harmful for the metal than for anyone downwind. It's quite possible to burn off zinc coatings. There are very real downsides to doing so and there's not much reason for taking the risks.

Gavin

Mike F · Post by **Mike F** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:08 am

Schreiber:

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

While it may not strike you dead on the spot, who knows about long-term effects? Plenty of slow problems can show up with no real source. Maybe not from Zinc, mind you, but you have to be careful.

As for their comments re: Zinc chloride, here's why. Zinc is a very reactive metal. It'll corrode very quickly in the presence of just about anything. If there's any salt on the piece, any water with chlorine absorbed, it'll react. This is why steel is plated in zinc, so the zinc reacts, not the iron.

But small doses . . . Radiation under a certain level leaves no noticible long-term effects. I was exposed to a decent amount with no risks or even cares (I could've swallowed the Cs137 source and been fine), but the radioactive elements in cigarrettes may be partially responsible for lung cancer.

It's your life, and I, personally, would avoid risks I don't need to take.

Minotaur · Post by **Minotaur** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:14 am

Well I didnt know you were such an expert Gavin. So how many ppm are we looking at for all those people downwind and at what distances? Now lets ckeck that next to the LD 50 of zinc oxide. If you dont know what they are or what they mean, you should good look it up in the Conference of Industrial Hygienists. Maybe after you do a little research on your own you might look like you know what your talking about. Untill then your just running your mouth with no facts to suport your statements. As for who I trust, the AWS gets thier information from the Conference of Industrial Hygienists and I trust them over anvilfire any day of the week a thousand times over. Also if you just stop and think about it just a little, why would the AWS want to kill off its members with bad information?

No metal fumes are good for you and they should all be avoided if possible. Its just this zinc thing has gotten way out of hand. Its nowhere near as dangerous as most people make it out to be. Now my last point is dont take 3rd or 4th hand information as truth. Always try and look stuff up on your own and get it 1st hand. Just because one internet site says something that doesnt make it true. If it did all armour would have every edge rolled, enough said.

Gundo · Post by **Gundo** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 8:23 pm

I just wonder why anyone bothers with burning off zinc. Non-galvanized steel isn't exactly hard to come by, for one. Neither is vinegar, which takes the zinc off without fumes.

No the fumes aren't actually deadly. They are nasty, though. So why get indignant in defense of producing them?

Oswyn_de_Wulferton · Post by **Oswyn_de_Wulferton** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 9:34 pm

I had heard (and this is Hearsay) that there were still fumes produced when using vinegar to strip the galvanization, but the fumes were not as concentrated. That was what the bubbles coming out of the vinegar are.

(I have never used vinegar to strip galvanization, but have heard of this "fact" secondhand. I would like to get more information about its truthfulness)

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 9:45 pm

The fuminess from the vinegar stripping process is probably some reaction product from the ascorbic and acetic acids in the vinegar.

Minotaur · Post by **Minotaur** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:26 pm

Zn(s) + 2 CH3COOH(aq) -> (CH3COO)2Zn(aq) + H2(g)

Hearsay=Bad

Oswyn_de_Wulferton · Post by **Oswyn_de_Wulferton** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:44 pm

Zinc plus ?(vinegar?) equals something bonded to zinc and hydrogen? So in other words, dont light a match? What exactly is the "remainders"? I am drawing some of this off Freshman Chem. (several years ago), so I am a bit rusty. I figured that someone out here would have done it, and either would say they got sick, or didnt. That is also why I marked it Hearsay, as I wasnt sure.

Minotaur · Post by **Minotaur** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:33 am

Yes, Hydrogen gas and Zinc Acetate. Going back to my other point, dont just trust me you should go look it up to be sure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetic_acid

schreiber · Post by **schreiber** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:33 am

Mike F wrote: An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Agreed - and the AWS safety sheet says that, and I said that.

While it may not strike you dead on the spot, who knows about long-term effects?

Well, nobody. That's my point.

As for their comments re: Zinc chloride....

Well, I was not debunking any claims about zinc chloride - I was simply trying to show that in the one article that claims "zinc oxide = death", they stop talking about zinc oxide altogether and go off on several tangents.

But I think your example adds to the hysteria that I'm railing against here. If zinc chloride were truly a concern, then there should be some easily available information on it. I'm going to go with what Minotaur said about it - if it were truly a risk, then AWS or OSHA or some group who employs thousands of people to work 40 hour work weeks studying people who get daily repeated exposure to this stuff might have figured it out over the course of 100 years.

It's your life, and I, personally, would avoid risks I don't need to take.

That's fine - I don't take unneccessary risks either.
But let me throw this out there, too.

A couple months ago I was discussing making biodiesel with my chemist brother. I mentioned to him that I'd read a lot about how nasty methanol is, and how I didn't think I wanted it in my house.

He replied: "Dude, you run a forge in your garage, off of compressed gas, no less. You know how to run your forge, and it's not a problem. If you know what to do with methanol, and you don't screw around, it's not a problem."

My objection is to the fact that people ON THIS BOARD are leaving beginner armorers with the impression that galvanized steel is not something they need to mess around with, because it could have long term health effects or cause them to die.

What we SHOULD be saying is: "Dude, you're getting into a hobby that could hurt you. Breathing zinc fumes could make you sick, so you should research that - but if you know what you're doing, and you don't screw around, it's not a problem."

Anything else which is not cited is, as I said above, little more than an email scare.

Mike F · Post by **Mike F** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:14 pm

I'm glad you enjoy insulting me. I find it amusing taht Minotaur backs you, as he did the same to me, which is why I don't speak to him any more.

Now, let's look at this one last time before I walk away from this thread and this forum again for a while (who knew this was more insulting than the Off Topics). Paw Paw was killed from this. Yes, he caught pneumonia, could that have been compounded or even caused by the inhalation? How about the short term effects such as memory loss? How about the buildup in the lungs, even if only temporary? How about the lead content of galvinization?

I've worked with radioactive materials, I reload my own ammunition, and I work steel with gas and coke, I know that things that will kill you are safe if you don't lose your head, what happens when you're working on some steel and all of the sudden you can't remember your name? What happens when your lungs are working at 50% capacity due to coverage? What if you have trouble standing up and fall into some nice, glowing steel?

Methanol is dangerous, but only if you drink it. This is unlike an airborne substance that will stick around, such as zinc fumes.

So while you go around calling us hysterical, remeber two things: First, you can ask people to research it all they want, but zinc has caused at least one death, and that's good enough for me.

Two, I have no uterus, so I can't be hysterical.

I appreciate your research, but not your attitude. Go talk with Blankenshield.

Thomas Powers · Post by **Thomas Powers** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:31 pm

I have friends who are weldors, their take on metal fume fever is short, pithy and too obscene for this forum. One in particular mentions that he had to have his 14 year old nephew drive him home from a work site and he couldn't make it into the house but lay in the driveway till help arrived.

At Pennsic one year I med a young fellow, early 20's who had just got out of the hospital from MFF from welding on galvanized, he mentioned that buying new stainless and a tig welder would have been a *lot* cheaper than the hospital stay he got from using "free" galvanized sheet.

There are a lot of things folks can do safely with a proper background; but people starting out would best be steered clear until they have the skills to keep themselves out of harms way.

Yes Paw Paw's copd had a lot to do with his death and it was pneumonia that killed him but it was definitely linked to the metal fume fever. And if you know how pneumonia works the timing was just about perfect---it follows after things.

I've had pneumonia before myself---missed a month of work, got kicked out of the maritial bed cause the coughing kept my wife from sleeping, got hemroids from the coughing and obviously had a great time. If avoiding heating zinc covered metal can help me avoid a repeat case I'm going to avoid heating zinc covered metal!

Why do people fight so hard against a simple easy way to make life better for themselves?

Thomas