bling up my HE Bocksten tunic

audax · Post by **audax** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 1:37 am

If I want to give a middle class knightly impression, what are some things to add to the tunic to give that impression? I don't see much trim in period representations but would it have been used by a middle class noble? What about accessories: belt, pouch and dagger or utility knife and what sort of decoration might I want to add to these? What sort of head gear might I wear (NO COIFS!)?

Would a "robin hood" archer hat be appropriate for late 13th-early 14th century?

If it helps,my persona is of European, born and raised in the Holy Land, in the above time period.

Thanks for any input (especially if Tasha or Gwen or Charlotte could weigh in).

audax

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:51 am

audax

How early 14th do you want, turn of the century?

What blings up a kit for me is proper accessories like you mentioned. A proper knife, pouch, hat/hood, belt, and period shoes make a huge difference. Other items: a ring, cloak, gloves, paternoster, proper brooches.

Detils make the man/woman if you ask me

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:24 am

looks like we'll have to nail that coif to your head.....otto

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:29 am

Plaintiffs atty: "Audax, is it true Mr. von Teich nailed a coif to your head? " Audax: "no" PA;"we have photos of your head with a coif nailed to it" Audax: "Oh...Yes...He did do that" PA:" Is it true he nailed a coif to your wifes head?" Audax; "Yes, He was a cruel man...but fair..."

Cet · Post by **Cet** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 11:28 am

Add some embroidery to the tunic

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 11:34 am

I don't want to be a party pooper, but is a bocksten-man tunic knightly apparel? I have several that the wife made, and I am phasing them out as yeoman- or freedman wear, or using them as underlayers, not what a climbing esquire would want to be seen in.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

Cet · Post by **Cet** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 11:37 am

What's fasionable in 1320 is peasant wear in 1390.

Karen Larsdatter · Post by **Karen Larsdatter** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 11:50 am

And what's peasantwear in Scandinavia in some as-yet to be nailed-down part of the 14th century may not be knightly apparel in Outremer, either ... :lol:

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 6:37 pm

Jehan de Pelham wrote:I don't want to be a party pooper, but is a bocksten-man tunic knightly apparel?

I would say yes after 1350, before then the tunic is the in garment.

I push that a bit myself, for a man of wealth in the later half of the 14th c it sould be tight fitting cotes/pourpoints not loose gowns and tunics. In the 1360s maybe into the 70s you can wear another cote/pourpoint with short sleeves with tippits and a looser fit below the hips.

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:55 pm

Ummm, I'm a bit confused- what exactly -is- a 'middle class knight' or a 'middle class noble'. :?:

Although an OK pattern, the Bocksten is a bit short for late 13th/early 14th. Generally you don't see garments much shorter than mid-upper calf for that period.

I'm afraid I can't even being to speculate what a European born and raised in the Holy Land would be wearing. Since there were no women on Crusade, how could a European be born in Palestine? If you were born in Palestine wouldn't that make you Palestinian by definition? Or maybe your mother was a native and your father a Crusader? In that case, has your father 'gone native', in which case you'd all be wearing regional costume? Or maybe your mother became a Christian? Oh dear, I'm terrible at these sorts of persona stories.

I'm afraid I can't be much help here. Maybe someone else can give you a better answer? In any case, if you decide you bought the wrong thing, I'll happily exchange it for an Early Period Gown or a button neck tunic, either of which would be more appropriate for late 13th-early 14th C.

Gwen

audax · Post by **audax** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:57 pm

To get more specific on the time period, it would be right at 1300, plus or minus a decade or so either side. So just after the fall of Acre, on Cyprus, upwardly mobile middle class urban squire. This is my basic starter garb, stuff I'd wear whilst conducting business or calling on friends. I just want it to look nice. I'll be adding nicer, fancier stuff as my finances allow. I've got my eye on one of HE's brocade cotehardies for really special occasions. And if all my Archive friends wanted to buy me one for Chrsitmas/my birthday (Jan 4) that would be great!

Um, hello? Where'd everybody go?

audax: "Otto turned me into a newt! And nailed a coif to my head!"
Jehan de Pelham: "A newt wearing a coif?"
audax: "Well...I got better."
James B: "He's a witch! Burn him! And nail a coif to his head!"

Oswyn_de_Wulferton · Post by **Oswyn_de_Wulferton** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:09 pm

Black Swan Designs wrote:I'm afraid I can't even being to speculate what a European born and raised in the Holy Land would be wearing. Since there were no women on Crusade, how could a European be born in Palestine? If you were born in Palestine wouldn't that make you Palestinian by definition? Or maybe your mother was a native and your father a Crusader? In that case, has your father 'gone native', in which case you'd all be wearing regional costume? Or maybe your mother became a Christian? Oh dear, I'm terrible at these sorts of persona stories.

Gwen

From what I understand, Gwen, there were many women that "took up the Cross" (aka. went on Crusade). They didnt go to fight, and kill, but simply to go and help out, relieve their sins, and see it for themselves. There are stories told of entire villages picking up and leaving, to travel to the Holy Land. That was part of the "mystique" of it all, was that one, be them noble or not, could go there, and relieve themselves of their sin. That was one reason given for the excessive amount of pillaging done along the way, as people didnt realize how expensive it would be, since they couldnt do "normal" work on the trail. Most of what I have seen is that there is a slight delay in fashion getting to the Holy Land, as it has to travel there. I have heard rough approximations of anywhere from 5-20 years earlier in fashion than England/France at a given time.

Granted, I have heard all of this from a mid. 12th century POV, so by the turn of the 14th century, the trade routes might have been better established by then. YMMV.

Jehan: "What else floats?"
James: "Saracens! Coifs! Audax's Tunic!"

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:23 pm

Jehan: "What else floats?"
James: "Saracens! Coifs! Audax's Tunic!"
Otto:.......small rocks?.....A Duck!

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:31 pm

Unless you're less than 5' 2" tall, that 38" long Bocksten is going to be way too short for 1300. You'd be better off with the button neck, which is taken from a fresco dated 1304-6.

Giotto di Bondone- Scenes from the Life of Christ: Marriage at Cana, 1304-06. Fresco, Cappella Scrovegni (Arena Chapel), Padua

And the cotehardie isn't at all right for that early, I wouldn't recommend it for any earlier than 1350.

Like I said, I'd be happy to exchange it for something more appropriate for the period you're doing.

Oh, and a coif might be Ok for that early, as the guy in the fresco wearing the tunic I copied is also wearing a coif. But he's not a newt. And the coif is definately not nailed to his head.

Gwen

audax · Post by **audax** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:40 pm

Aarrgh, no coifs! A hood, a Robin Hood hat, even a turban but no coif!

Gwen, I was looking at some Outremer art work and many of the tunics in the region seem shorter than what might have been worn in Europe, at least while doing business or supervising the operations of their estates. I'll try on the bocksten and see what I think. I plan on buying quite a bit from you so, I'll be getting more and different tunics as time goes by. I know a cotehardie is too late for me, but they look damn good and for really spiff occasions, I want to look damn good. I may do a bit of time surfing between my on the field persona and the off, for the sake of sartorial expression.

By middle class, I mean in terms of income, not necessarily social status. Many poor or middle class nobles went on crusade looking for land and opportunity to move up socially and financially. Most returned to Europe but many stayed on to occupy the Crusader States. However, as more land was lost to the Muslims over time, those nobles became holders of money fiefs. These were taxes from villages that had mills, bridges, orchards, etc or tolls from certain gates in towns or cities that had them. These families while noble and knightly were not especially wealthy.

There were many families in the Crusader states that did not intermarry with the locals, resulting in native born children off European descent. A lot of women went on Crusade or more precisely, on pilgrimage, since they were technically non-combatants. There were whole families including children. Heck, there was even a Children's Crusade. It ended badly as so many of them did. It was to protect and succor these folks that the Templars and Hospitallers were established.

I hope all this backstory helps a bit.

audax

P.S. NO COIFS!

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:48 am

Have a look at http://www.tempora-nostra.de/tempora-no ... php?id=203 - German, dated c. 1300.

And http://www.liebaart.org/index.htm - Flemish, 1302. Unfortunately, while they show "civilian" and "knightly" outfits, there's really nothing to show what someone of the knightly class would have worn "off-duty".

Um . . . sorry, but there ARE coifs there . . . but some pretty classy outfits, too.

Ingvarr · Post by **Ingvarr** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 8:03 am

audax wrote:P.S. NO COIFS!

Can I interest you in a nice arming cap sort of thing? Seriously though, I thought you were early period, whatcha trying to fit in with the xivvers for?

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 11:08 am

There's a time and a place when coifs are appropriate, and 1300 is definitely one of the times. However, the "hood as hat" from the Manessa is a very cool look I have not seen anyone attempt. One of the chaps from de Lieebarts is wearing it and I think it looks great.

Gwen

Karen Larsdatter · Post by **Karen Larsdatter** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 1:05 pm

Black Swan Designs wrote:Since there were no women on Crusade, how could a European be born in Palestine?

Granted, it mostly deals with the women involved with the Siege of Acre (and is, admittedly, not the most stellarly-written piece of research on the subject), but check out Women of Peace and War. Lots of women went on Crusade. Not most women, but a whole lot more than we generally think of.

^ · Post by ^ » Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:03 pm

Here is a photo of me in a c1300 outfit from the medieval birthday party I threw myself in 2002.

[img]http://www.mediumaevum.com/party/pics/peter2.jpg[/img]

A few more photos are avalible at http://www.mediumaevum.com/party/gamepics.html

Brent

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:07 pm

YES! That's it exactly! Why don't more people try that? It looks ace.

Gwen

^ · Post by ^ » Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:22 pm

Black Swan Designs wrote:YES! That's it exactly! Why don't more people try that? It looks ace.

Because doing a good historical look requires letting go of what you want it to look like and just following the evidence. Most people don't want to do that.

Brent

audax · Post by **audax** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 4:14 pm

That's what I'd rather do, than wear what looks rather like a diaper on my head. (Sorry coif guys.) That's why I'd like a hood or possibly a turban of some sort. Since my persona hails from the Holy Land it is not unlikely I might have worn a turban or other head wrap, since it is a time honored solution to the heat and dust of the region.

The problem I have with the Manesse Codex and Die Liebaart is that they reflect fashions in northern Europe. I was hoping for a bit more info on what was happening in Spain, Italy, Southern France and then into Outremer proper.

Ingvarr, all I really wanted was some advice on how to make my outfit look nice. It's sort of gone in a different direction from that initial aim. :lol:

audax

^ · Post by ^ » Sun Dec 10, 2006 4:21 pm

audax wrote:The problem I have with the Manesse Codex and Die Liebaart is that they reflect fashions in northern Europe. I was hoping for a bit more info on what was happening in Spain, Italy, Southern France and then into Outremer proper.

This is true. You should go to the library and look at art. Copy what you see there. I would avoid Spanish art though as it is a different beast.

Brent

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 5:02 pm

Since my persona hails from the Holy Land it is not unlikely I might have worn a turban or other head wrap, since it is a time honored solution to the heat and dust of the region.

Time honored for a native, but how about for a non-native? There is a huge bias against 'going native' especially when the natives are 'heathens'. Yours is a modern assumption I would be interested to see borne out by period sources.

Just out of curiosity, are many of the US forces currently in Iraq opting for Iraqi headgear and clothing, or are they sticking to the US military issued duds?

Gwen

Oswyn_de_Wulferton · Post by **Oswyn_de_Wulferton** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 5:14 pm

I would have to go digging for period sources, but several different ones mention a turban-like thing on their heads. A couple of sources talk about them adopting the clothing, and headwear of the area, as they became part of the culture, and there was a blending. There didnt seem to be the fear of "going native" as mostly the natives had figured out the most comfortable way of living (and we all know the nobles liked their comfort). There is really no other solution when you are in heat like that, as it doubles as a dust-cover, shade, and keeps your head cool (when done right). The difference most people tend to make when hearing turban is an Indian tied-up thing that is a foot tall (think Haji). These are (at their simplest) a piece of cloth, held between two rings on your head. Part of the problem is that there isnt a lot of artwork from that area, dealing with European decended people, and the period sources we have are small.

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:27 pm

"Just out of curiosity, are many of the US forces currently in Iraq opting for Iraqi headgear and clothing, or are they sticking to the US military issued duds?"

None that I have seen. But it seems to me to be a not so useful comparison. Regular forces are similar to liveried troops, where wear of identifying clothing and use of standard arms is expected.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

audax · Post by **audax** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:55 pm

Ya, what Oswyn said. To expand upon it, much of the prejudice against going native was from those fresh from Europe. Those who had been "in country" for some time or even born there were less opposed to adopting certain customs of dress and diet to adapt to the climate. I'll look through my books so I can give you some period references. I really didn't make these assumptions up out of whole cloth. They came from reading and researching the area. One of the problems I've encountered is there isn't really much European art from the area at all, as Oswyn mentioned. I've seen a few effigies but they mostly show armor of course. There are a few period histories and the Maciejowski Bible has some helpful stuff.

Going native was limited to certain things, so as to make life there more pleasant. There were however, a number of renegade Europeans who not only adopted the clothing and diet, they converted to Islam and served Muslims lords, some becoming quite wealthy in the process. Native building methods were embraced as well such as the use of wind towers for ventilation, dining or sleeping areas on the roof for really hot weather, things of this nature.

I really have done my homework on this region. I just wanted help making my soft kit look nice. Le sigh.

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 7:34 pm

I know very little of this period, so this is all very interesting!

I wasn't insinuating that you were fabricating anything audax, I honestly don't know much and was looking for more info. There was a huge bias against 'going native' in the age of exploration, so I was applying that bias to an earlier period. If what you all are saying is correct, then that bias is a much later development. That alone is an interesting phenomenon.

John, I'm not sure I understand the point you are making, probably because I don't understand military stuff very well. Could you explain a bit more, please? Feel free to do it via PM or email, as I see this is not the direction audax wishes his thread to go. :wink:

Gwen

audax · Post by **audax** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 7:49 pm

I don't mind thread derails as long as at some point I get what I asked for, so no worries about that. I do have an idea now of how to make my soft kit look better.

Thanks for clarifying, Gwen. I feel better knowing you understand I've done a bit of research. I do think there was quite a bit of prejudice against going native, it just seems to mostly be a new guy thing. Guys who'd been around a while in the Holy Land just realized at a certain point the natives had a good idea how to survive the climate. Kind of like "I hate the Moslem heathens but those headwraps sure are comfy in the heat and dust."

Oswyn_de_Wulferton · Post by **Oswyn_de_Wulferton** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 8:12 pm

Audax, I would try and check out any Byzantine references from the same time period. While not exactly what you are looking for, you might be able to find some other stylistic things that you might want to adopt. From what I have read, there was also slightly less bias against assimilating with their Chrisitan Byzantine (Roman) cousins, vs. Saracens.

Gwen, I think what Jehan is talking about is that it is expected of liveried troops to wear standard uniforms, instead of doing what is comfortable/native. Think of it like squires wearing a red belt their knight gave them. Even if he moves somewhere that suspenders work better than a belt, he is still going to wear the belt, due to what it means to him, and the association that is there.

Jehan, if I am off base at all here, please correct me.

Steve Wood · Post by **Steve Wood** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 8:29 pm

For what it is worth. In todays military, everybody wears the same thing, hence being uniform. But if the soldier is a Special Forces or Special Operations soldier working very closely with the indiginous people, then that soldier would "go native". 2 reasons: 1 As a sign of respect to the people that the soldier is working with, and 2; So that the soldier would not stand out when operating with them, therefore being a not so easy target, and it helps to confuse the enemies intelligence gathering networks.

But there are a few times when everyday soldiers can wear native attire and typically those times are when off duty and in camp/garrison only. Generally speaking very few soldiers wear native attire, other than perhaps headwear, mainly due to the convenience of already wearing what he/she is used too.

Symon VanMoordrecht · Post by **Symon VanMoordrecht** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 9:22 pm

Two quick points,

U.S. and british forces have adapted the "Shemagh" when operating in the middle east and Afgananstan.

http://www.opsgear.com/Shemagh-Desert?s ... egory=4275

And the Rule of the Hospitallers permitted brothers to wear a turban but only if it was white.

"Over the head the brother would wear a white cotton coif. In church services a large skull cap was worn over the coif and had to touch the wearer's ears on both sides. In the 1280s a ruling dictated that a brother wasn't allowed to remove the cap even if he was feeling hot, unless for good reason. However, in the searing Middle Eastern heat a brother was permitted to wear a brimmed hat or a white turban. In 1262 when on a military expedition a brother could only wear a turban if it was white."

From the age of chivalry site,

http://www.taoc.co.uk/content/view/94/47/

And I do have this in a couple of books, but I cant seem to lay my hands on them right now.

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 9:37 pm

Fascinating, all of this.

Is the "Shemagh" the exact same as the indegenous people wear, or has it been adapted and made a US Military colour? I think I have seen this on native people in white/blue or black but the link is to one that is tan and black, and notice an OD green version.

Simon quotes In 1262 when on a military expedition a brother could only wear a turban if it was white.

As I understood it, audax was looking for something to wear 'about town'. Does anyone have information as to whether it would be acceptable for a European to be wearing a turban in a non-military scenario? The above quote leads me to believe a turban was only permissible in the field.

I bet audax thought this thread was going to be 3 people suggesting he put some trim on his tunic, rubber stamping the Robin Hood hat and that would be the end of it. A word to anyone watching this thread- if you ask me to get involved, I'm going to ask a lot of questions! :lol:

Gwen

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Can't remember the source, but I recall reading a report of a letter from a Frankish nobleman thanking his Saracen opposite number for the gift of a particularly nice turban, and IIRC, something like "it really looks cool, I wear it all the time".