Flailing

[zugislander]

So, does anyone know the basics of how a flail is/was used? Could someone share this knowledge if they have it?

Thanks in advance.

Cordially,

Michael

[knitebee]

i dont know about historical techniques but for play, I made one out of a Nerf ball with three ropes tied around it and braided which are attached to the handle. the power than can be generated is phenominal, just a stupid Nerf ball but it will hit hard enough that you can feel it through armour, its not like a piece of rattan but still for a piece of foam its impressive. for the most part we have found that you use it just about like a mace just have to aim a little different depending if you want the ball to strike dead on or wrap around and hit. As long as the ball part doesn't weigh to much than its not neccessary to keep it moving or anything before striking, though nice circular movements do lend themselves to a lot of power. Against shields you aim the tip of the handle to just hit the edge of the shield, the ball will wrap around and hit them in the head or at the least come down and hit there shield arm.
Its also quite easy to hit some on in the back of the head especially when side stepping.

brian

[zugislander]

Brian,

Thank you for your reply, but I was looking for information on the peasant sort of flail with the long wooden pole and a short chain connection to a much shorter length of wood that sometimes had spikes driven through it. It was adapted from the peasant grain harvesting device. I am trying to figure out how it would work in general nature.

Any ideas out there?

Cordially,

MJB

[Robert P. Norwalt]

Well. No pic's. But I've made 3. I love making weapons and testing them.
The long handle (4.5 ft) with medium chain, (24") and solid steel ball. The long handle with long threshing "bat", and the one you described above.
I've used them against period and SCA shields to DEVASTATING effect. And against 18 Ga. Indian "period" 'esque helms. And SCA legal helms. Spangens. Barbute. Great helm, and Mac Bible helm.

The thresher I had wrought iron banding around the mid section and ends, ,...it was fast but the lightest hitter. I'd say against unarmoured levy, who might be the one's using this style, it was okay. The steel ball, (probably 2.5 pounds) swung with full force, crushed a 14 Ga. helm like a pumpkin first swing. 12 Ga. mild, w/16 Ga. straps, big dents but no penetration. I can reckon a fellow would have a hell of a concussion. Against plank shields awesome. Against plywood, (1/2) busted it up pretty bad, and after a few tries, penetration. The one with the short bat, and spikes was my least favorite, because it wanted to stick in the shields, then I was "messing" around with it, trying to free my weapon. I can imagine doing this while a cap a' pie, knight was running my ass into the dirt. Maybe a coordinated team could use it in conjunction with glaives and Halberds for a stick 'em while we hack 'em, but I have no period proof at my finger tips.

Oenghus Lok.

[Steve Hick]

Brian,

Thank you for your reply, but I was looking for information on the peasant sort of flail with the long wooden pole and a short chain connection to a much shorter length of wood that sometimes had spikes driven through it. It was adapted from the peasant grain harvesting device. I am trying to figure out how it would work in general nature.

Any ideas out there?

Cordially,

MJB

There's nothing in English published, although Terry Brown of the Ancient Compnay of Maisters in England teaches the Threshall. He doesn't teach this to any but his most senior students. There is material on the pole flail in Maier, in German, Jeff Tsay of Guard Up/Higgins Museum works with Maier and his silly weapons and is your best bet.
Steve

[Ken Mondschein]

So, does anyone know the basics of how a flail is/was used? Could someone share this knowledge if they have it?

Phil Crawley taught a class in flail last spring at the BFHS meeting in Aberdeen.

You can fence with them - carefully. Phil was sure to point out that the number one defense is Getting Out of The Way.

-Ken

[Morgan]

Make one and play with it. You'll figure out pretty quickly that there are some things you can do that work right... IE transfer force of the head onto the target. Everything else you try is wrong. You either don't transfer force to anything, or you hit yourself. LOL

[Kaliban]

i use one in markland ..but are you talking hand flail or peasent

[zugislander]

Thank you all very much.

Steve, Thanks for the names and further research topics.

Ken, thanks for the info and heads up, but I had already smacked my wife's new iron with and thus caught on to the "duck and cover concept".

Morgan, I have just completed one and wanted to get the idea, before it came out in public. Hitting meself would be bad, it is for demonstration and thus has spikes.

Kaliban, Peasant baby, all the way. Hussites rule, "silly Anglesh kanigits, we fart in your general direction" (Guess what I got tickets to for Christmas?!). Great picture by the way, that has got to hurt when it hits someone!

Michael

[audax]

I imagine a flail would be a lot like nunchuks, a peasant tool turned weapon or the kung fu chain whip. I gave myself 5 stitches on the back of my head practicing my chain whip kata for my 2nd black test. I felt little better when my instructor gave himself 4 stitches over the eyebrow. Anyway, it's a flexible weapon so lots of centrifugal force (part of why they are formidable weapons), so start slow and play with it to see how it behaves and where it goes when you move the main haft. The longer haft will make it a bit easier to control, I think, than the chain whip or the nunchuku. Still almost as dangerous to the user as his opponent.

[zugislander]

Your comments about the dangers of Nunchucks brought back a story from my youth.

Years ago, A fellow I went to high school with, and myself, ended up working as guards at a local mall. He was something less than a "people person", but dependable as sunrise, so he ended up working the overnight shift. Suited him to a tee. One night while at work this former high school associate of mine managed to get one of his testicles crushed while "on the job". Apparantly after writhing there in agony for awhile he managed to call in the road supervisor, who called in the ambulance, which took him to the emergency room. Afterwhich, the road supervisor called me to finish the remainder of this guy's shift. Now when I get there he is already gone and I ask the supervisor why he can not finish his shift. The story this guy fed the supervisor was that as he was jogging around the mall for exercise he slipped and fell and slid into the projecting corner of the mall. Which explained how he injured himself in such an astonishingly odd location, yet so remarkably seriously. Once I am there I end up wandering around and find a pair of nunchucks (with the guys name written on them) in a nearby planter. When I saw him a couple of weeks later I told him I had found his nunchucks and asked him what really happened. This is what he told me. He was wandering the empty mall and "practicing" with a pair of nunchucks. He obviously needed the practice as you will see momentarily. Anyway, as he was walking he "chucked" when he should have "nuned" and ended up striking himself with his own nunchucks. He struck himself in the "groinal" region and ended up literally crushing one of the "family jewels". He then asked for the return of his nunchucks. I immediately gave them to him and endeavored to forget the incident from that day until this, thanks to you -- unsuccessfully.

Michael

[Lindsay]

He tested his lesson plan on the DDS the week before that... the man is a loon!

I also believe he's planning a class on self defence with a hankercheif at the SWASH meeting in January.

Phil Crawley taught a class in flail last spring at the BFHS meeting in Aberdeen.

You can fence with them - carefully. Phil was sure to point out that the number one defense is Getting Out of The Way.

-Ken

[sha-ul]

I am confused by the above picture(Kaliban)&discussion

VII. WEAPONS STANDARDS
3. Flails are expressly prohibited.

[Lindsay]

Not every one here plays SCA rules and I'm sure that amongst those that do, the standards only apply to official events... away from these, people can experiment as they like.

I am confused by the above picture(Kaliban)&discussion

VII. WEAPONS STANDARDS
3. Flails are expressly prohibited.

[InsaneIrish]

I am confused by the above picture(Kaliban)&discussion

VII. WEAPONS STANDARDS
3. Flails are expressly prohibited.

It says in his quote that he uses one in Markland. Markland is another medievally themed group. NOT a location within the SCA.

[Kaliban]

Yea ia m in Markland as well as the sca .. i play with a few different fighting orgs an yes when i hit someone with it it gives a bit of a wallop but there is no solid core but still hammers home with authority If only the SCA would let me play with it

[BendSinister]

I used to play with a "Horsemans Flail". It was an intersting weapon. I learned many important things whilie figuring it out.
1. The haft needs to be longer than the chain.
2. The chain and head needs to be shorter than the haft.
3. There is a lot of energy trying to tear the head off.
4. The flail is a nasty piece of work as a thrown weapon.
5. Things hit by a flail get damaged.
6. Do not hit youself in the back of the head with the flail.
7. Flails and lanyards are a bad combination.

As for construction; Golf balls are very dangerous, so I used a tennis ball for a sparring weapon. Tennis balls carry a lot of energy=hurts.
Made a head from dense foam and a cloth cover, better. Rope, cable and string a chain do not make. I used plastic garden chain. Flails are rough weapons, armour helps to reduce the effect of the flail.

Try it out, carefully. Remember you are coluring outside of the lines.

[B. Fulton]

Have played with the soft foamy flails in another fighting group.


Got to handle the spikey-head-on-a-chain footman type flail when in Austria at Graz. Just from holding up the head and estimating the size of the shaft (5' at least), with the very short chain, a snap hit to the front of the shield would do serious damage to whoever's head it hit.


Nasty, nasty weapon. I didn't swing it around or anything as the one I handled was pretty well stuck in the rack, but the head I would estimate as weighing around 2.5 lbs.

[audax]

Your comments about the dangers of Nunchucks brought back a story from my youth.

Years ago, A fellow I went to high school with, and myself, ended up working as guards at a local mall. He was something less than a "people person", but dependable as sunrise, so he ended up working the overnight shift. Suited him to a tee. One night while at work this former high school associate of mine managed to get one of his testicles crushed while "on the job". Apparantly after writhing there in agony for awhile he managed to call in the road supervisor, who called in the ambulance, which took him to the emergency room. Afterwhich, the road supervisor called me to finish the remainder of this guy's shift. Now when I get there he is already gone and I ask the supervisor why he can not finish his shift. The story this guy fed the supervisor was that as he was jogging around the mall for exercise he slipped and fell and slid into the projecting corner of the mall. Which explained how he injured himself in such an astonishingly odd location, yet so remarkably seriously. Once I am there I end up wandering around and find a pair of nunchucks (with the guys name written on them) in a nearby planter. When I saw him a couple of weeks later I told him I had found his nunchucks and asked him what really happened. This is what he told me. He was wandering the empty mall and "practicing" with a pair of nunchucks. He obviously needed the practice as you will see momentarily. Anyway, as he was walking he "chucked" when he should have "nuned" and ended up striking himself with his own nunchucks. He struck himself in the "groinal" region and ended up literally crushing one of the "family jewels". He then asked for the return of his nunchucks. I immediately gave them to him and endeavored to forget the incident from that day until this, thanks to you -- unsuccessfully.

Michael

Boy does this story make me glad I'm not a dude.

Yeeouch.

[Russ Mitchell]

Steve's on the money, and the most dramatic thing is that the swingle of a Taborite flail makes a great blocking device. No personal experience, though: I tried to commission one through Craig Johnson, and could never get him to return my email.

Otherwise, if you're further east in orientation, you also have a roundish iron head that hangs on a leather strap tied to a stick. It's still used here and there for wolf hunts, and is primarily a horseback weapon. Serious Owwie, used a lot when the Avars were around (the Avars were *very* heavily armored).

[zugislander]

This is to complete my Hussite armory, now I just need to get the maille/armor sorted out, but anyway. I have the Handgonne, now I have made a version of a flail, I just do not want to do bodily harm to either myself, or anyone around me.

Cordially,

Michael

[Russ Mitchell]

I did my first bachelor's thesis on the Hussite Wars, and would love to see a picture: I've actually wanted one for a conversation-piece for while now.

There is, alternately, artwork depicting a lighter version of the same flail, scaled down, on an altarpiece in Hungary, dating from the absorption/reconciliation of the Taborite bands which raided Moravia after the dust at Lipany was settled. An extremely strong man, or one with stellar body mechanics, could have (barely) wielded it in one hand, judging by the scale.

[Aaron]

I've believed that you could make a SCA legal flail that would be safe, but it would mean everyone who does sword and shield would just have to redo everything they've learned.

The flail would bring the shieldman to a level playing field...flat on his back.

[Kaliban]

the flails we use in markland would e perfectly leagal in the sca ..for one they are not solid core an 2 the chain will not wrap around anything on a persons body .. my flais have a braided rope core in them andthey can hot plenty hard enough and yes most sword an sheild guys would have ot learn how to deal with it .. but its not an easy weapon to use to begin with ..

[Aaron]

So based on the evidence from Kaliban on the Markland flail tests, flails in the SCA are banned not for safety, but probably because they are effective against the major form used by most of our leadership.

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

No, actually, I am pretty sure that they were banned back when they were unsafe, and no-one has looked at them twice. There isnt enough pressure to look at them again, if they are going to be a rare weapons form at best. The other reason is that I have a feeling you can generate a lot more power with a flail than any other SCA weapon (if you lose your head). Which is bad. Sorry you seem to think so negatively about some of the SCA leadership, and S&B. I know it isnt your game, but for some of us it is what we love.

[Malachiuri]

So based on the evidence from Kaliban on the Markland flail tests, flails in the SCA are banned not for safety, but probably because they are effective against the major form used by most of our leadership.

Ummm... not even close.

When I started in the SCA out west we used flails in demos. I still have minor nerve damage in my left arm from a shot that wrapped over the edge of my shield and struck my forearm. I was wearing heavy leather and 1/4" steel barstock vambraces at the time. The shot bent the 1/4" stock on impact.

Later when I moved to Calontir, a couple of us made "experimental" rattan flails just for the hell of it. We dented a 14g helm bad enough that it scared us terribly with one shot. On a whim, I cut thru an old bard door with mine... in less than 20 shots.

Flails are terribly effective in generating force. We dont use em because its damn hard to build one thats safe enough to use but still impart decent force. Its a very thin margin for error that not many know how to walk.

[Russ Mitchell]

Agreed with Baron Mal, for obvious reasons.

You'd have to use a short leather band as your pivot, and boffer the hell out of the head. Rattan on a flail is just asking for somebody to get seriously hurt. Gents, don't underestimate the power of TWO lever arms.

Or, to quote Berry Herald ".... and every time they struck they felled a man...."

[Kaliban]

Ummm... not even close.

When I started in the SCA out west we used flails in demos. I still have minor nerve damage in my left arm from a shot that wrapped over the edge of my shield and struck my forearm. I was wearing heavy leather and 1/4" steel barstock vambraces at the time. The shot bent the 1/4" stock on impact.

Later when I moved to Calontir, a couple of us made "experimental" rattan flails just for the hell of it. We dented a 14g helm bad enough that it scared us terribly with one shot. On a whim, I cut thru an old bard door with mine... in less than 20 shots.

Flails are terribly effective in generating force. We dont use em because its damn hard to build one thats safe enough to use but still impart decent force. Its a very thin margin for error that not many know how to walk.
_________________



Ok one my markland flail is about equal to the SCA great sword an pole arm in power .. but with my flail an how most of us make them they will not break bones like SCA great weapons or polearms ... the flails we make are not solid core .. Markland has been using flails for the past 30 yrs and that includes hand flails/morning stars as well .


You'd have to use a short leather band as your pivot, and boffer the hell out of the head. Rattan on a flail is just asking for somebody to get seriously hurt. Gents, don't underestimate the power of TWO lever arms.

Ok if you look at my pic i do not have short leather band for the pivot point and my core is covers with 1 to 2 layers of pipe insulation,leather and tape .there is no solid core .. the one in the pic wasa bit different just because i used a larger diameter rope than what I usually use ..

you guys can ask me what you will but i have been useing one for nearly 11 yrs ..been hit with them plenty of times over that period an have to say i have had worse shots from sca great weapons an pole arms.

So than can be made safely an are quite effective .

[Cat of Black Talon]

Yea ia m in Markland as well as the sca .. i play with a few different fighting orgs an yes when i hit someone with it it gives a bit of a wallop but there is no solid core but still hammers home with authority If only the SCA would let me play with it

I have seen this beast, Kaliban. Maybe you brought it to practice to show.

With Kaliban's height, I guess this weapon would come down at you from 15 feet. I exagerate....maybe 9 feet? Hey, from my perspective...heh.

Thank the Gods you're a gentle soul.

Cat

[zugislander]

I will see what I can do on the picture front. My wife does not go in for this sort of thing and it is difficult to take pictures of yourself in rig. Both of my pieces are "lighter" than what is shown in the Osprey books. And I had to improvise a couple of points in the flail construction as I coould not find pieces I was looking for. But I think it came out satisfactory for demonstration work.

Cordially,

MJB