Tournaments of the 12th and 13th century

[B. Amos]

How could we do a more historicaly acurate 12th or 13th century, tourney / meele, that would rival those that are being done by the 14th century crowd. ie. battle of the 30? From my limited research I have read about grand meeles where knights would take to the contyside with teams of there squires and men at arms to win the armour and horses of there oponents. I have always thought that somthing like that would be very cool to do, adapted to the SCA (sans horses). What other styles of tourney were common durring thease times? what would work best in an SCA setting? I know the 14th century has a large following, could we muster enough people to pull this off?

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

I'm not sure we could get enough people, sadly enough. I am just drawing on the numbers at Warriors of History, and we had about 10 of us between the 10th-13th century, which is when we start to see the major changes in armour.

[SirAngus]

Put the word out and get it going

Try something small this pennsic and then try and make it bigger as you build interest.

I have an Aussie friend who is renewing his interest in this type of tourney, but he's looking at doing it from horseback... and not in the SCA...

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Tournaments need horses. Fighting on foot in all styles...these things can never be called "tournaments."

[Otto von Teich]

How about Bicycles Vitus? If they had em, they might have used em... ...Otto

[BdeB]

The last time I posted my rules for an SCA 12c tournement on this board, I showed up to a major war and found them being used, basically unaltered for a sceranio.

Unforunately, in that case the number of participants made the rules too encumbering.

Years ago I held an excellent 12c tourney in Caer Mear, that I would love to tweak a bit and try again. Maybe in 2008.

[jester]

How about the Pennsic Woods Battle with ransom tokens that limit resurrections? You purchase your ransom tokens (rather than doing requiring real ransoms to avoid William Marshal scenarios with people turning our game into a business) and head into the woods to defeat opponents. If you are struck five telling blows you must surrender your ransom token and head back to the res-point. When you're out of tokens you're done.

The day could start with baton combats for those who are willing (typically an activity for the squires and pages, but we could stretch a little) and wrestling (again, a stretch) and move on to the tournament/hastilude. This should, of course, be followed by the parliament (sitting around drinking beer and arguing over who did the best job and telling 'no-shit' stories) and dancing for the ladies and amorous young men.

Really, we're pretty damn close.

[olivier]

Atlantia has Bryce, Justus, and Amos interested (if not already involved in pushing 12th c. tournament ideas) - surely we can get something going very soon in this regard.

Amos - I encourage you to check out David Crouch's book Tournament which is all about tournaments from the late 11th c. to about 1300.

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

Heck depending on the date/location, I would travel to be part of this (assuming it was in Atlantia). There are a couple of others down here who do it well as well (Sir Camric, Blackoak, etc) but they are a bit west of me.

[BdeB]

I would seriously change this tournment quite a bit, but I went back and searched for what I had written here years ago....

"I ran a mellee tourney that i styled after the tournies of the 12c. (As best we were allowed to do for SCA combat). Teams were as many as you could rally to your banner, and making and breaking alliences were allowed. There where too "Recesses" which were Resurrection Points for all purposes. When you had been bested you reported to the Mol's who were in the two recesses and told them which team was to receive your 'ransom'. The ransom was your point value. Unbelts were 3 points, Knights 4, and Royal Peers 5. Points were also assigned to whichever team held three structures at the 15 minute mark. (A Bridge, a house, and a V Gate.) There was no acting out wounds - if you were hit in the arm or leg you were bested, and retired to the recesses to give your ransom. We ran the scenario for 45 mins and everyone seemed to have a good time. we ended up with three large teams, with the two smaller teams pairing up to take on the larger from time to time. The prize was fifty silver coins as ransom (Susie B's - which were donated so that they didn't come out of event expenses and break SCA law...) This was after a hunt scenario so there was plenty of fighting that day."

[B. Amos]

Thanks for all the responses. Its good to see that there is some interest in this. Does anyone know of any other tournament (for lack of a better word) forms are available durring this time?

Thanks for the info olsk I will definately see if I can get my hands on that book.

Jester and Bryce I like both of your ideas. I am working on some ideas of my own but haven't put anything together yet.

[Saint-Sever]

Brian Price (Earl Brion Thornbird) ran a William Marshal tournament many years ago at a Mists Games that was one of the best times I ever had in armor.

The tournament was a fundraiser. To compete, you had to buy in, an amount of tokens called "crownes" you were staking as your ransom, if captured. Ransoms were based on SCA rank, with royalty paying the most. Once captured, you could buy your way back into the fighting by paying enough to post another ransom. The rate was twenty-five cents a "crowne", IIRC. Tally on ransoms collected was kept, so that prizes could be awarded at the feast following the tournament.

These are the rules that gave it a real feel of 12th century tournament, as opposed to the mass fight-practices most "William Marshal tournaments" devolve into:

Single-handed non-thrusting weapon and shield were the only weapons allowed. No poles, great weapons or weapons wielded with 2 hands permitted.

Combatants were encouraged to fight as organized conrois of 5-10 combatants each. (Idiots like me who came stag soon formed ad-hoc conrois among ourselves, when we discovered that the alternative was like being the lone gazelle on the veldt, surrounded by several packs of hungry hyena.)

When you were struck a telling blow, you were "bested", and had to submit. The captor had to get his prisoner all the way back to their side's respective "base" to collect the ransom. Prisoners could be rescued or stolen by other conrois any time before the ransom was collected. (Brian also installed an overhanging "drainpipe" over two of the natural routes back to the bases, in case anyone recognized what they were, and would try and escape captivity by grabbing them as they were led back for ransom. )

The tourney was fought at a Boy Scout camp, with the clusters of cabins serving admirably as villages contained within the tourney field's bounds. As in Bryce's tourney, there were refuges at several places, where spectators could view the tourney from a position in the middle of the action, and where fighters could take a breather (or escape the hyenas-- I had to, several times.)

With no polearms, and only edged single-hand weapons allowed, the combatants soon found the spirit of the event. Conrois moved at a fast walk or trot from place to place, until they saw another such. At that point, the two sides would charge into one another at the run, there would be flurry of a melee, and the side that got the worst of the encounter would break and run, leaving the winners to reorganize and process their prisoners. After a bit, many of the conrois began detailing squires to bring their prisoners back to the ransom point, allowing the conroi to continue their hunting.

For the spectators, the tourney was a never-ending succession of charges and fights-- as soon as one encounter was resolved, another would be beginning. No one wanted to take the sidelines after being captured-- the fundraising part of the event was a massive success, as fighters purchased ransom after ransom. (Hell, the day cost me 20 bucks-- as a reigning Prince, getting captured wasn't cheap, and the hyenas were out for me in force, let me tell you...) The event mnaged to completely capture the dynamic of a tourney of 1150 AD-- even without horses!

The feast afterwards was one of the best, most period in atmosphere gatherings I had ever attended in the 30 years I've been playing. With the nature of the fighting, everyone had a good fund of stories and observations, and the day's events were pretty much the exclusive topic of dinner conversation. Prizes were awarded based on ransom tallies, and spectator observations. Then many of the prizes got re-awarded, as the recipients used them to recognize what they thought were the best (or most amusing) deeds of the day.

Hell of a time. If I ever get fully active in the game again, I'd run one myself. Maybe for "Make a Wish" as the benificiary.

During the after-action debrief, Brion and I discussed some additional rules that might make the tourney even more evocative of the period:

-- Counted blows: combatants would be encouraged to use a spear with one hand, over or underhanded with their shield, simulating a lance. A single telling blow with the lance captures your opponent. 2 or 3 telling blows with sword must be given, for the same result. (We figured that encounters between conrois would start with a charge of lances, and then go to swords as soon as the sides closed.)

-- "Legging" an opponent reduces his ransom by 1/2 or 2/3, simulating the loss of his valuable horse.

M.

[BdeB]

Not suprisingly, Brion came up with good ideas.

Here is an account on another way to do one....(from Chronique because I don't know how to link the specific page....)

The Twelfth-Century Tourney at Flaming Sky

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by Etienne de l'Isle
posted September 7, 1996

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Etienne de l'Isle, servant of Duke Finnvarr de Taahe, sends greetings to all who read these words.

At the end of August of A.S. XXXI, the Shire of Flaming Sky in northern Ealdormere held its customary Bonfield Battle, at which several notable contests of arms took place. Among these was a tournament in the style of the twelfth century. I am describing it for those interested in simulations of actual historical tournaments.

The twelfth-century tournament was inspired by the ones described in the Life of William Marshal: warriors would fight in teams in an extensive area, in hopes of capturing and ransoming their opponents. We were fortunate to have a partly wooded, partly clear area of at least 15 acres to tourney in. There were about twenty fighters, divided in two teams. One side was largely made up of House de Taahe, Duke Finnvarr, several of his squires, and a number of other warriors; the other was based on House Blackcloak, and included the notable warriors Sir Mordain Blackcloak, Rory Cennedi, Esq., Viscount Kildare, and Earl David Martin Failsworth. The duke's team represented England, and Sir Mordain's Normandy.

Two safe areas were located at either end of a wooded road. At each site were water and fruit for the fighters. Good thing, too, it was very hot! Also in these safe areas was a herald (in 12th century terms) whose duties included warning approaching fighters that no combat could take place in the safe areas. There were also a number of roaming heralds. Fighting in this scenario worked a little differently than in standard combat. Any fighter wounded once, in any legal target, was immobilized but could continue to fight. To remind everyone of this fact, a single blow -- to head, body, or limb -- was shown by the fighter dropping to the knees. A second would took the warrior out of the fight. Such fighters were not considered "dead," but merely wounded or unhorsed or otherwise incapable of fighting.

A twice-wounded warrior could be either rescued or captured by a standing fighter. A once-wounded warrior could be rescued by a friend. This is how it worked. If another warrior, X, stood in front of a once or twice wounded one, Y, and said, "I, Sir X, rescue you, Y" then Y was up and able again. If an opposing warrior was able to stand before a twice-wounded warrior and say, "I, Sir Z capture you, Y," Y was obliged to follow the captor to the nearest herald, either at a safe point, or wandering loose, where Z could register the capture. Then Y was up and able.

If in the process of trying to find a herald and register a capture, Z ran into one of Y's friends, W, W was allowed to try to rescue Y. Y could not run away during the combat, but was not obliged to follow Z if he was chased off by W. Then he would be free and able.

The ransoms were not fixed, and were not bargained for at the time of registration. No tokens were carried around. To guide the eventual ransom-fixing, Duke Finnvarr set his own at 5 crowns, each crown being 1/4 of a loon, or one of the Queen Elizabeth silver pennies, the ones with the elk on the back ($.25). The idea was that the heralds would compare notes after the tourney, find out which ransoms cancelled each other, and identify net creditors and debtors. The creditors were asked to tell the debtors to contribute their crowns to a worthy cause, the support of the Tidings of Ealdormere.

In the actual fighting it was soon proved that Normandy was stronger than England. The vigorous Rori Cennedi was an excellent scout, and twice guided the forces of Normandy to complete victory, in which all of England was captured, without any of the English being left to rescue fallen comrades. To keep the game alive, the Norman tourneyers broke up into smaller units. There were several combats between smaller English and Norman units which were much more even, and ransoms were gained on both sides.

All agreed that the scenario was a great deal of fun, but that improvements were possible. All agreed that the ability of victors to register captures with roaming heralds made it too easy to turn an initial advantage into a crushing one. It was suggested that there be more (4?) safe areas (and more water), and that heralds able to register captures be only at those sites.

Another suggestion was that downed fighters be allowed to recover in a certain amount of time if unguarded. (At one point most of the men of England were downed in one spot, but not formally captured, and were hardly guarded; this struck the participants as wrong.) There was no agreement about how many fighters a single able warrior should be allowed to guard. The final suggestion was to break up the teams into smaller groups, of perhaps five each. This could mean that there would be several teams, or two teams which could not fight as a single mass.

A further improvement would have been a more ceremonious reckoning of accounts at the end of the battle. Duke Finnvarr was captured three times, but only one herald, representing two of the captors, found him in the camp that evening to remind him of his debts and to whom they were owed.

Duke Finnvarr, the original deviser of the tournament, was both pleased with the contest, and in agreement with most of the suggested improvements. He would willingly hear further comments from participants and others.

[BdeB]

One thing that I didn't handle well was Capture. Having been in the Battle of the 30, I know how to make it work better now.

The bummer is that if I ever did one of these again, I would want to fight in it, and because the MIC can't fight at the event anymore, I wouldn't get the chance. Unless I could arrange someone else to be the MIC....hmmmm.

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

Brian Price (Earl Brion Thornbird) ran a William Marshal tournament many years ago at a Mists Games that was one of the best times I ever had in armor.

The tournament was a fundraiser. To compete, you had to buy in, an amount of tokens called "crownes" you were staking as your ransom, if captured. Ransoms were based on SCA rank, with royalty paying the most. Once captured, you could buy your way back into the fighting by paying enough to post another ransom. The rate was twenty-five cents a "crowne", IIRC. Tally on ransoms collected was kept, so that prizes could be awarded at the feast following the tournament.

These are the rules that gave it a real feel of 12th century tournament, as opposed to the mass fight-practices most "William Marshal tournaments" devolve into:

Single-handed non-thrusting weapon and shield were the only weapons allowed. No poles, great weapons or weapons wielded with 2 hands permitted.

Combatants were encouraged to fight as organized conrois of 5-10 combatants each. (Idiots like me who came stag soon formed ad-hoc conrois among ourselves, when we discovered that the alternative was like being the lone gazelle on the veldt, surrounded by several packs of hungry hyena.)

When you were struck a telling blow, you were "bested", and had to submit. The captor had to get his prisoner all the way back to their side's respective "base" to collect the ransom. Prisoners could be rescued or stolen by other conrois any time before the ransom was collected. (Brian also installed an overhanging "drainpipe" over two of the natural routes back to the bases, in case anyone recognized what they were, and would try and escape captivity by grabbing them as they were led back for ransom. )

The tourney was fought at a Boy Scout camp, with the clusters of cabins serving admirably as villages contained within the tourney field's bounds. As in Bryce's tourney, there were refuges at several places, where spectators could view the tourney from a position in the middle of the action, and where fighters could take a breather (or escape the hyenas-- I had to, several times.)

With no polearms, and only edged single-hand weapons allowed, the combatants soon found the spirit of the event. Conrois moved at a fast walk or trot from place to place, until they saw another such. At that point, the two sides would charge into one another at the run, there would be flurry of a melee, and the side that got the worst of the encounter would break and run, leaving the winners to reorganize and process their prisoners. After a bit, many of the conrois began detailing squires to bring their prisoners back to the ransom point, allowing the conroi to continue their hunting.

For the spectators, the tourney was a never-ending succession of charges and fights-- as soon as one encounter was resolved, another would be beginning. No one wanted to take the sidelines after being captured-- the fundraising part of the event was a massive success, as fighters purchased ransom after ransom. (Hell, the day cost me 20 bucks-- as a reigning Prince, getting captured wasn't cheap, and the hyenas were out for me in force, let me tell you...) The event mnaged to completely capture the dynamic of a tourney of 1150 AD-- even without horses!

The feast afterwards was one of the best, most period in atmosphere gatherings I had ever attended in the 30 years I've been playing. With the nature of the fighting, everyone had a good fund of stories and observations, and the day's events were pretty much the exclusive topic of dinner conversation. Prizes were awarded based on ransom tallies, and spectator observations. Then many of the prizes got re-awarded, as the recipients used them to recognize what they thought were the best (or most amusing) deeds of the day.

Hell of a time. If I ever get fully active in the game again, I'd run one myself. Maybe for "Make a Wish" as the benificiary.

During the after-action debrief, Brion and I discussed some additional rules that might make the tourney even more evocative of the period:

-- Counted blows: combatants would be encouraged to use a spear with one hand, over or underhanded with their shield, simulating a lance. A single telling blow with the lance captures your opponent. 2 or 3 telling blows with sword must be given, for the same result. (We figured that encounters between conrois would start with a charge of lances, and then go to swords as soon as the sides closed.)

-- "Legging" an opponent reduces his ransom by 1/2 or 2/3, simulating the loss of his valuable horse.

M.

Please let me know if you do it. I would definately make this, as it sounds like a ton of fun.

[Saint-Sever]

Well, Oswyn, if my next assignment is Atlanta, maybe we can co-autocrat it!

M.

[Syrfinn]

Bryce, have someone else MIC it, in name only, and you just do the work.

[olivier]

I will help out with such a tournament in whatever capacity I can - even if it means just writing Bertran-style poetry to let all know of its approach.

[Jacob]

I'd do what I could to be there, particularly in Virginia. I'll bring my crest from Warriors of History.

If it's a well advertised event with "regular" fighting, too, people will attend. If the event description sounds too exclusive, it will be a half dozen of us fighting. That might be better looking, but not necessarily more fun, and wouldn't spread the ideas around.

If you really want to get it to rival the combat of 30 at pennsic, it seems you need royalty involved. The first year, as part of the HCS, there were probably less than a dozen people, and it was far less restrictive. You've seen the turnouts for HCS and WoH. The following always sounds larger on the archive and then a small core group shows up and collects a few people that were doing pickups. Try it locally and work the bugs out. Then, if you want, see if you can get the support to make it an event at pennsic, not just another tournament. If I can, I'll fight in it either way.

[justus]

The 12th century idea of a tournament is so different from what we are able to do. The wide ranging horse born team melees must have been a blast to participate in, but are something we could never reproduce.

But! I would still love to see some 12th early 13th themed tourneys take place, we just have suspend our disbelief like we do for the rest of this game. I'm all for it, and I'll try and think of ways to make it 12th centuriffic.

-Justus