16 Gauge Mild Steel Is Plenty!

toweyb · Post by **toweyb** » Fri Dec 20, 2002 12:12 pm

<Troll = on>
All you saps with your heavy helms are just putting yourselves at a competitive disadvantage.

16 ga. is plenty. Anybody who hits hard enough to dent it should be jailed for battery.

Authentic, period armor was way thinner. The reason SCA combat is so static is that our armor is to heavy by half.

And, for all of you who go on and on and on about thick steel, remember that there are plenty of scouts and archers who have to wear list-legal helms, but never expect to get hit at all.

So there!

William Frisbee · Post by **William Frisbee** » Fri Dec 20, 2002 12:15 pm

What?

It's my head dude. I'd prefer to go heavy, than go dead...

jcesarelli · Post by **jcesarelli** » Fri Dec 20, 2002 12:26 pm

Tell that to the two-swordsman who dented a 12 guage mild steel helm right at the base of my skull with a wrap shot in one of the Pennsic field battles.

------------------
Joseph

He who would venture nothing must not get on a horse
-Spanish proverb-

Horse, thou art truly a creature without equal, for thou fliest without wings and conquerest without sword.
- The Qu'ran -

Guillaume2 · Post by **Guillaume2** » Fri Dec 20, 2002 12:28 pm

In period they fought very rarely,i imagine that someone who have done more than 4-5 real war in is life can be considered as a very experienced warrior

in SCA you fight again and again and again and you have to go home after the fight so you better get back there whitout a trip to hospital.

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Fri Dec 20, 2002 1:08 pm

In period they fought very rarely,i imagine that someone who have done more than 4-5 real war in is life can be considered as a very experienced warrior

Ummm... Tournaments?

Effingham

Guillaume2 · Post by **Guillaume2** » Fri Dec 20, 2002 1:24 pm

hmm yeah i had in mind earlier armour before the jousting era...

but hey,they died in earlier tournament !

as for later jousting/tournament of renaissance....i doubt armour where so light!(i think here to a 22lbs froghelm) and they only had top of armor

Cedric · Post by **Cedric** » Fri Dec 20, 2002 1:41 pm

Sorry, I really need my brains for work

I like my 14g Stainless Helm, and it likes me.

Cedric

adric · Post by **adric** » Fri Dec 20, 2002 1:56 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by toweyb:
<Troll = on>
All you saps with your heavy helms are just putting yourselves at a competitive disadvantage.

16 ga. is plenty. Anybody who hits hard enough to dent it should be jailed for battery.

<Troll = off><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Either your area hits on the lighter end of the scale or you don't fight too much cause what started on the shelf as 16ga mild and what ends up on your head are 2 different things. And unless you dont much need your head i don't think i want to trust the thinner stuff. Comp. advatage or not. I have 2 dents in my 14 ga helm both caused by hte same guy. I would hate see what would happen if it was 16ga.

Josh W · Post by **Josh W** » Fri Dec 20, 2002 2:03 pm

"Period armour was way thinnner"

That's not always so. In particular, helmets and breastplates were frequently much thicker than what we often use today. Look up some data on it. Robert Hardy's "Longbow" has some figures in an appendix. Also, Wade Allen, who pops in here now and then, has a collection of period stuff. He gives a good speech on the thickness of armour in period.

Signo · Post by **Signo** » Fri Dec 20, 2002 2:14 pm

I don't think that a period warrior fought few battles in his life, middleages were a troubled period, and a battle is always a battle, with many thousand of fighter or only some dozen. A warrior that can have a plate armour have surely many time the skill of other combatants, because its one that voted is life to war, surely he had not problem of "dents" because if he can leave the field, he can have his suit repaired as well. Modern combatants are another thing, SCA is another thing.

Galileo · Post by **Galileo** » Fri Dec 20, 2002 2:26 pm

Guys, you did notice the smilies, right?

It's a joke people...

Stoffel · Post by **Stoffel** » Fri Dec 20, 2002 2:38 pm

I fight in a 16g helm with no problems.

David Hagler · Post by **David Hagler** » Sat Dec 21, 2002 11:44 am

Actually, it's not a matter of period thickness. Thickness varied back then just as it does today. There were heavy ones and light ones. The notion of period thickness and weights is not correct. There is no such thing. ALL were used. Period.

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FIRESIDE ARMOURY
www.firesidearmoury.com

David Hagler · Post by **David Hagler** » Sat Dec 21, 2002 11:56 am

By period thickness and weights, we "should" just mean that we are not going to use anything heavier than 12 or lighter than 22.
I've seen shotproof siege helms from the 17th century that were at "least" 10 gauge.
Also, gorgets that were so thin they should be in the "tin" roof range.
Don't judge by weights. You might just meet a dude wearing a "shotproof" cuirassier harness weighing in at a "historical" 90lbs!

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FIRESIDE ARMOURY
www.firesidearmoury.com

David Hagler · Post by **David Hagler** » Sat Dec 21, 2002 12:14 pm

Sorry for the continued posting. But I do it as it comes to mind.
I referred too much to gunpowder days earlier.
Actually, lets go back to the 14th century.
Tournament armour should be heavier to resist repeated impact from tournament weapons.
So too, the same follows today-"tournament weapons and repeated blows and impacts".
OK, what if you are wearing this stuff in a "real" war. NOT likely today, huh?
Maybe a little lighter to be more manueverable. But maybe not-ala-personal taste of the client.
Just a note-to be averaged out: 14 gauge is quite good for a skull on average, both field and tournament usage, historically.
Those who say anything heavier than 16 is unrealistic, are just trying to get away with using cheaper metal that is easier to form.!
Nuff said. D

------------------
FIRESIDE ARMOURY
www.firesidearmoury.com

randy · Post by **randy** » Sun Dec 22, 2002 2:55 pm

Dude. 16 gaugee is scary, my helm is 14 gauge reenforced with a second layer and hardened, and i have dents in it.

hjalmr · Post by **hjalmr** » Sun Dec 22, 2002 9:19 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by randy:
Dude. 16 gaugee is scary, my helm is 14 gauge reenforced with a second layer and hardened, and i have dents in it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

...and you don't think people are swinging too hard at you?

(^_^)

------------------
Hjalmar of Sognefjord
House Bearkiller
Barony of Grey Niche, Meridies.

"True nobility is not measured by being superior to another, but rather by becoming superior to oneself."

Waddy · Post by **Waddy** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 3:27 pm

I often wonder if it is the rattan (new condition vs old, hardness, etc.) causing "weird" dents to helmets, as well as the type of shot. I made a brand new 14 ga stainless helmet, and this knight threw a quick clean snap to the side of my head when I wasn't paying attention. The shot made a nice crease in the helmet. I have been hit other times since then by others, but no dents like that. Also, his shot did not seem to hurt my head at all, but people with these excessive great weapon shots sometimes give me a minor headache without denting my helm. It seems too hard, but what can you do? All about physics it would seem.

Paladin · Post by **Paladin** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 3:59 pm

Wear a decent helm because some people, like myself, are trying to cleave your helm with a stick. That means I am going to hit you hard.

This is not a game of touch, go play light weapons if you want that. 14 gauge stainless and 13 gauge mild is just fine, just expect to recieve a dent every now and then. Have good padding so you don't get welted through your helmet either.

In early period tournament(the time of our calibration) people fought to the yield or worse. It wasn't a game of touch, it was a game of "If I beat you I take your armour and your horse", have a nice day.

A better way to get a feel for it in the SCA is do a match of counted blows, say like 57 counted blows so neither party will keep track. Then the match will be to the yield and will test the skill, wind, and toughness of a man and harness, basically the "might" of a knight.

JPT · Post by **JPT** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 7:45 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Waddy:
I often wonder if it is the rattan (new condition vs old, hardness, etc.) causing "weird" dents to helmets, as well as the type of shot. I made a brand new 14 ga stainless helmet, and this knight threw a quick clean snap to the side of my head when I wasn't paying attention. The shot made a nice crease in the helmet. I have been hit other times since then by others, but no dents like that. Also, his shot did not seem to hurt my head at all, but people with these excessive great weapon shots sometimes give me a minor headache without denting my helm. It seems too hard, but what can you do? All about physics it would seem. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Waddy,

You may actually be getting a headache from neck strain from your neck muscles responding to the motion caused by the shot ... Read Whiplash effect.

Regards,

JPT · Post by **JPT** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 7:51 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Paladin:
Wear a decent helm because some people, like myself, are trying to cleave your helm with a stick. That means I am going to hit you hard.

This is not a game of touch, go play light weapons if you want that. 14 gauge stainless and 13 gauge mild is just fine, just expect to recieve a dent every now and then. Have good padding so you don't get welted through your helmet either.

In early period tournament(the time of our calibration) people fought to the yield or worse. It wasn't a game of touch, it was a game of "If I beat you I take your armour and your horse", have a nice day.

A better way to get a feel for it in the SCA is do a match of counted blows, say like 57 counted blows so neither party will keep track. Then the match will be to the yield and will test the skill, wind, and toughness of a man and harness, basically the "might" of a knight.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't it also true Paladin that the combatants in medieval tournaments where the most highly trained atheletes of their time. While I'm not disagreeing with your premise or your logic, I think it's important to remember that this is a hobby and most fighters don't even particularly train. Even the hardcore fighters and those just to stupid to stop (like me) who practice(d) a multiple times a week it's still a hobby.

That said, I wouldn't fight in anything less than 14ga and I'd want that to be hardened. My barrel helm is 12ga mild. My reasoning is simply this, if people are swinging sticks at my head, I still have to be able to get up to go to work on Monday.

Regards,

Arland · Post by **Arland** » Thu Jan 02, 2003 4:50 pm

LOL

You know when I read this I thought of 2 things.

First. Outlands!!! 16ga indeed that's a dent target

Second. Starting off with 16ga won't give you a legal helmet unless you raise said helmet and ensure it's 16ga thickness all around. If you dish a 16ga helmet it won't be legal by time your done. It will have thinned out too much.

losthelm · Post by **losthelm** » Thu Jan 02, 2003 5:03 pm

actualy I think the biggest thing is that not all 16guage is 16guage a lot is sold a little thinner. also the metal thins a bit as its polished and refinished over time.

Thaddeus · Post by **Thaddeus** » Thu Jan 02, 2003 5:04 pm

I haf fotted inna 16gaje hlemut fer yearZ sand years and hav no trubles whutsovere!

Chuck Davis · Post by **Chuck Davis** » Thu Jan 02, 2003 10:59 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by toweyb:
Authentic, period armor was way thinner. The reason SCA combat is so static is that our armor is to heavy by half.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From The Armoury of the Castle of Churburg

Bascinet #13 - 5.75 kg = 12.68 lbs
[possibly with the aventail, doesn't say]

Bascinet #15 - 3.265 kg = 7.12 lbs
Aventail - 3.00 kg = 6.61 lbs

Bascinet #16 - 4.09 kg = 9.01
[no aventail]

My modern version of a bascinet, constructed with 12g top, 14g wapper, 1/4" bar grill, and welded stainless aventail = ~13 lbs.

At least for helms, I don't believe that the medieval helms were lighter than our modern reproductions or sport equipment. Certainly, some medieval helms were very light. Perhaps these were more for the infantry or for those who could not afford the best equipment. But we also have to take into consideration rust and condition.

I've also looked at breastplates, and based on weigth, I'd say the 14th century examples in Churburg were 14guage at least.

Weigths for Churburg 13 from page 23:
The 9 plate breastplate 2.65 = 5.84
Right arm harness 1.185 = 2.61
Left arm harness 1.175 = 2.59
Right gauntlet .49 = 1.08
Left gauntlet .45 = .99
bascinet 5.75 = 12.68
Total 11.7 = 25.79 lbs

-Cad

I used http://www.onlineconversion.com/weight.htm for converting kg into lbs.

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-Chuck
aka Cadwallon y' Rhudd

hjalmr · Post by **hjalmr** » Fri Jan 03, 2003 1:59 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Paladin:
This is not a game of touch, go play light weapons if you want that. 14 gauge stainless and 13 gauge mild is just fine, just expect to recieve a dent every now and then. Have good padding so you don't get welted through your helmet either.

In early period tournament(the time of our calibration) people fought to the yield or worse. It wasn't a game of touch, it was a game of "If I beat you I take your armour and your horse", have a nice day.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Two comments on this:
1) The SCA is not a reinactment group -remember!!
2) Tournaments also included punching, kicking, wrestling, and just about any other kind of combat you can think of -so don't tell me swinging for the moon is authentic because nothing else is.

Wearing thicker helmets only forces the other person to swing harder and harder and harder until all of us are wearing 2" steel plating around our bodies -thats when we become known as tanks! I get sick of fighting people in armor so thick that they can't feel me hitting them, yet they proceed to pound me into the ground when I am wearing the SCA standard. The SCA has many, many, fighters who will NEVER be able to swing hard enough to defeat 1/2 of the SCA fighting force. In the real middle ages these people would have probably been archers, or siege oporators, or... but in our modern world they wish to participate in a HOBBY -note the word HOBBY!! I'm all for being gung ho and such, but some of you take this way too seriously!

I would rather be defeated by solid, skillfully placed blows, rather then the bonecrushing shots that drive through my shield, armor, body, and planet. We should be practicing an art form, not barbaric rage!

(^_^)
------------------
Hjalmar of Sognefjord
House Bearkiller
Barony of Grey Niche, Meridies.

"True nobility is not measured by being superior to another, but rather by becoming superior to oneself."

[This message has been edited by hjalmr (edited 01-03-2003).]

[This message has been edited by hjalmr (edited 01-03-2003).]

Anvil Dragon · Post by **Anvil Dragon** » Fri Jan 03, 2003 2:08 am

While I am new to this BB, I'm not new to this topic and would like to add a few points.

First remember a few things about period armour. There was no such thing a guage or consistant thickness in ANY piece of armour. Remmeber, the metal was hammered into a sheet from an ingot either by hand or trip hammer and the ingot was created from a gnarled nasty bloom.

Second, armour was iron, weapons were steel. While there is evidence of some carbon being added and case hardening, armour was still iron.

Third, in a tourney, you wore armour of proof, meaning that it had been proven to be safe. But also bear in mind that most tournaments were fought to display honor and chivalry, bravery and skill, in that order of importance. People were being wounded and forced to yeild, and generally not killed.

Fourth, and here's where it gets ugly: the SCA is hitting harder than our ancestors did. It's that simple. While I have done a lot of experimentation on this, here's the easiest way to put this accross. Lets say you're in the late 15th century, and are a well fitted heavy cavalry member wearing full plate. You have long, elegant and close fitting gauntlets that restrict your wrist movement. You are in a saddle going forward, and proper sword cuts are done toward the back of the horse, without the use of your hips. This means, that all the force you can provide to your opponent is the speed/force of your arm swing minus the speed of the horse. Now, if this was not sufficient power, then no one would have used cavalry. Of course we know that this was not the case. Also, think about the different distribution of force between a round or flattened stick verses a precise cutting edge. Which does more damage given the same amount of force applied, being hit with a four inch wide paddle or a 1/4 inch wide fiberglass rod?

Fifth, going off the period masters, your feet should be moving as you strike, not planted. This means the energy of the blade's weight and speed were more important than the brute force produced by the hips.

As I see it, the bottom line is that we face the same problem our ancestors did in period. As armour improved, weapons improved. Once weapons improved to the point that the rules of the game restricted them, people started hitting harder. When people started hitting harder, armour had to be improved. As armour improved more, people started ignoring formerly good shots, and so people had to start hitting harder.

Hope my few shillings adds something.

Adrian

Chuck Davis · Post by **Chuck Davis** » Fri Jan 03, 2003 7:01 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Anvil Dragon:
Second, armour was iron, weapons were steel. While there is evidence of some carbon being added and case hardening, armour was still iron.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Adrian,
The latest research into the materials used in armour production shows that it was not pure iron, and there isn't a lot of evidence for case hardening.

While strickly not as homogenious as modern steel, it is considered a 'banded' steel. The banding is a carbon/iron layer formed when the bloom is placed back into the foundry and carbon is absorbed. Then the layers are formed when flatten with trip hammers and folded back on itself.

Very interesting research!

Information from:
various articles by Dr. Alan Williams

The Royal Armoury at Greenwich 1515-1649 A history of its Technology" by Dr. Alan William and Anthony de Reuck

-Cad

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Jan 03, 2003 8:13 am

So, unlimited force requires unlimited protection which leads to unlimited expense! It's a closed system with positive feedback, and in ten years all of Scadia will vaporize in an orgy of metal fragments and ratan dust!

Our plan is WORKING!

BWAHaHaHaHahaaa!

Toweyb: Sometimes the Jester asks the best questions!

Actually, this is an interesting discussion and I'm glad I stopped by, even if all I could contibute was my blunt-heavy-object-like wit.

------------------
Full time civil servant, part time blacksmith, and seasonal Viking ship captain.

Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov

Go viking: www.wam.umd.edu/~eowyn/Longship/

Hit hot iron: www.anvilfire.com

Markland Medieval Mercenary Militia: http://www.markland.org

Arland · Post by **Arland** » Fri Jan 03, 2003 1:46 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by hjalmr:

Wearing thicker helmets only forces the other person to swing harder and harder and harder until all of us are wearing 2" steel plating around our bodies -thats when we become known as tanks! I get sick of fighting people in armor so thick that they can't feel me hitting them, yet they proceed to pound me into the ground when I am wearing the SCA standard. The SCA has many, many, fighters who will NEVER be able to swing hard enough to defeat 1/2 of the SCA fighting force. In the real middle ages these people would have probably been archers, or siege oporators, or... but in our modern world they wish to participate in a HOBBY -note the word HOBBY!! I'm all for being gung ho and such, but some of you take this way too seriously!

I would rather be defeated by solid, skillfully placed blows, rather then the bonecrushing shots that drive through my shield, armor, body, and planet. We should be practicing an art form, not barbaric rage!

(^_^)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ummm no. Itâ€™s as simple as that. It force people to hit you harder if the intent is to dent your helmet. Plus that calibration they are using to hit your helmet is the same they are going to use on the rest of your body. Most people donâ€™t wear 14ga body armor, legs, arms, etc.

Iâ€™m sorry but I donâ€™t think that the lighter shots people throw in some kingdoms really constitutes â€œheavy fightingâ€

Paladin · Post by **Paladin** » Fri Jan 03, 2003 2:04 pm

"In the real middle ages these people would have probably been archers, or siege oporators, or... but in our modern world they wish to participate in a HOBBY -note the word HOBBY!! I'm all for being gung ho and such, but some of you take this way too seriously!"

-Then I say let them go be archers, siege opperators, or better yet, go play with light weapons. There are tons of medievalesque games that go half speed and don't really involve hitting other people, let alone hard.

This entire idea that "everyone should be able to play" is simply BS. Why should everyone be able to play? To cater to the 12" bicept club? To cater to every person who doesn't want to train and work out? I think not.

This game is the last bastion for full force armoured combat, it needs not to be degraded into some "play" thing to please the geekdom. Next thing we'll be doing is rolling dice to see who wins the tournament.

Harsh but true, this is the closest thing we have to an actual sport representing broadsword and other fighting. Play acting is one thing, being able to actually unleash on another man is what takes us closer to the warrior spirit. Being able to do so and still maintain a code of conduct and honor, that is Chivalry. The difference is walking the walk as compared to pretending to walk it.

Talk with the "old timers" as I have and you will seethat the game was never intended to be a game of touch or tap. I have spoken long with Richard the Short(1st king/duke of the SCA) about this and the current game of flick fighting is not what was intended. He, as well as many of us, believe that the game is much more than pretend, and is an activity to test the metal of men and their skill and might. The game was never about pretending to defeat your opponent, it was about beating him and hitting him.

If you can't hit with sufficient force I suggest working out, practicing, and wielding something a bit more stout. Otherwise there's light weapons, boffers, or comic conventions for you. But please don't try to dilute the fun and power of our sport/game because you are not willing to work hard or are not physically up to the challenge. It's like asking professional athletes to to play down at your level because you don't want to or are unable to compete at their level.

***Edit:

And BTW, whomever thinks that tournaments were some gentle affair needs to re-examine their thoughts. The romanticism of later centuries plays things off much cleaner than they actually were. In my reading about tournaments, particularly in the William Marshall days, they were no pleasant affairs, people were always injured and often maimed/killed. These were very serious affairs and very serious times. Many people lost their lives, horses, harnesses, fame and fortune on such fields.

With so much at stake, plus the ability to advance oneself in wealth and social status through combat, I bet those guys struck as hard and as skillfully as they could.

***End Edit

Brand

[This message has been edited by Paladin (edited 01-03-2003).]

lorenzo2 · Post by **lorenzo2** » Fri Jan 03, 2003 3:21 pm

Let us also recall that tournaments were banned during certain periods due to the number of deaths and injuries. This is of course ammunition for both sides of the hit hard/hit lighter argument. If we hit hard then we are indeed fighting our tournaments in the authentic style. On the other hand if hitting hard results in either only professional atheletes being able to play or in too many injuries then the SCA game as we know it will no longer be able to exist in modern society. My great grandfather remembered when bare knuckle boxing was all the rage. This sport no longer exists due to the number of injuries. The SCA must provide a balance between the heavy and light hitting camps so the game can endure.

Arland · Post by **Arland** » Fri Jan 03, 2003 3:55 pm

Where is that you play? Here in the Outland and even in Drachenwald the game is not a tippy tappy game. Though Drachenwald for the most part was a lighter hitting kingdom. Maybe itâ€™s a level of skill, but I had my helmet dented more in Drachenwald than I do here in the Outlands. Yes people hit hard, yes it sometimes excessive. But Iâ€™m not going to play a game where a shot can be taken by an accidental back swing thatâ€™s â€œat calibrationâ€

Rhyance · Post by **Rhyance** » Fri Jan 03, 2003 7:54 pm

When I started doing this at the age of 17, (I'm 41 now) I had to overcome real fear to get out there. But get out there I did, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

In Caid in those days the fighters hit like trucks. Martin, Jason, Adrian...Yes, my armor showed it sometimes. But when I stepped over that line and listened to the way my breathing sounded in my helm, I knew I was there to take whatever my opponents could send my way. And I'm very proud to say that I never called anybody on hitting too hard. Nor will I.

We didn't have the term in those days, but today what we did would be called an extreme sport. It hurt. Sometimes it hurt a lot. On the day my right arm got broken I killed two more people with my left.

But at the end of the day I knew that I had been afraid, yet I hadn't backed down. I keep that, and I pity those that have never felt it.

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"When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite."
Winston Churchill

Melee · Post by **Melee** » Fri Jan 03, 2003 8:45 pm

I think (and feel) that the heaver the helm the leastest ammount of brains get all mixed up inside. Now i ain't no doctor but thats a bad thing to have happen.

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"Of all the gin joints, in all the world. She walks in to mine." Rick from Casablanca.